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Old 11-12-2008, 02:04 AM   #31
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Ridiculous and unfounded explanation, if this guy bailed he split for other reasons. Asphalt racing for 12th scale is fun predictable and as competitive as a racing on a rug.
Thats one opinion. I have been advised that the decision to run on Asphalt was majorly pushed through by one man. Maybe true, maybe not.

What is true is that I was at racing at Italy 2006 and I was not at the 2008 worlds along with another bunch of people who did not attend. Whay is that? This is not a US only thing. I am talking from a UK perspective here.

I am your average "reasonably good B team national level driver". I get killed at international events and end up half way down the field. I like to race at these things and I want to go knowing my tire stock is going to work. Then I can at least enjoy driving the car, doing the best I can and then watching the magic that happens in the later rounds.

If you are skilled enough at the sharp end you maybe have the time to have a replica track built somewhere to test and practice on. Then you go prepared with all the right stuff. However.... how is your "better than average" joe going to be able to live with this?

Looks to me that the 2008 worlds was about two guys lapping the field in the A because they had the right stuff. Where is the competition in that?

Ashpalt is a turn off to many 12th drivers. You can have whatever opion you like but the 12th world championships..... run at a time of growing 12th popularity.... was only half full. That is a disaster.

I look forward to seeing you at the two European championships we have comming up..... ON CARPET.

Mark
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Old 11-12-2008, 04:51 AM   #32
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Wow, the thread responses here are pretty silly considering that 1/12th scale has been run on asphalt for decades, and even ran more power with 6 cells!
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Old 11-12-2008, 05:20 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Mark Payne View Post
Thats one opinion. I have been advised that the decision to run on Asphalt was majorly pushed through by one man. Maybe true, maybe not.

What is true is that I was at racing at Italy 2006 and I was not at the 2008 worlds along with another bunch of people who did not attend. Whay is that? This is not a US only thing. I am talking from a UK perspective here.

I am your average "reasonably good B team national level driver". I get killed at international events and end up half way down the field. I like to race at these things and I want to go knowing my tire stock is going to work. Then I can at least enjoy driving the car, doing the best I can and then watching the magic that happens in the later rounds.

If you are skilled enough at the sharp end you maybe have the time to have a replica track built somewhere to test and practice on. Then you go prepared with all the right stuff. However.... how is your "better than average" joe going to be able to live with this?

Looks to me that the 2008 worlds was about two guys lapping the field in the A because they had the right stuff. Where is the competition in that?

Ashpalt is a turn off to many 12th drivers. You can have whatever opion you like but the 12th world championships..... run at a time of growing 12th popularity.... was only half full. That is a disaster.

I look forward to seeing you at the two European championships we have comming up..... ON CARPET.

Mark
I'm quite disappointed to read this post from a fellow Brit because I thought you would have been more open to the "world" of racing, which includes 12th on tarmac - instead of the "I race 12th on carpet so why bother with anything else" attitude you have displayed here.

By your own admission you get killed at international events - why would the surface make any difference to that? And on the topic of tyres, it seems that only two people had "special" tyres courtesy of Yokomo - so it is not as if the rest of the field had any particular advantage.

There is nothing wrong with running 12th on tarmac. End of.

But you do raise a couple of relevant issues...

1) "Special" tyres - from what I read Yokomo supplied Juho Levanen and the young Japanese driver who won (sorry I don't know his name off the top of my head) with a different tyre that worked better than anyone else. In one sense credit to Yokomo for doing the research - perhaps as the rumours suggest these are old compounds that everyone else had forgotten about.

Answer is easy - a control tyre. They will have one in the TC championship, there is no reason why 12th cannot do the same, wheel fittings have become virtually universal in the last couple of years, very straightforward now to supply premounts in a certain compund.

2) Turnout - 12th is a niche interest, it has a small band of dedicated followers that make a big noise on the internet but in reality it is a small class. To get 49 drivers to race in Thailand (most of whom are mainly there for TC anyway) is not such a surprise. If the 12th WC was in Thailand as a standalone event you would get half that. Also, the western world is in an economic downturn, this will have had a significant effect, money is much tighter today for individuals and businesses than it was just 6 months ago.
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Old 11-12-2008, 06:04 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by sosidge View Post

There is nothing wrong with running 12th on tarmac. End of.

But you do raise a couple of relevant issues...

1) "Special" tyres - from what I read Yokomo supplied Juho Levanen and the young Japanese driver who won (sorry I don't know his name off the top of my head) with a different tyre that worked better than anyone else. In one sense credit to Yokomo for doing the research - perhaps as the rumours suggest these are old compounds that everyone else had forgotten about.

Answer is easy - a control tyre. They will have one in the TC championship, there is no reason why 12th cannot do the same, wheel fittings have become virtually universal in the last couple of years, very straightforward now to supply premounts in a certain compund.
I agree 100%.It is no different than running on different types of soil in the off road world.Compare blue groove clay to loamy soil or even turf.I personally like a loamy soil track because it's what I have always driven due to the area I live in.

I also agree that if yokomo did their homework for their drivers they did a super job as a sponsor and took the time to make sure the guys who represented their brand had the best their brand had to offer. If guys want to complain , go complain to their sponsors for not making sure they had the best gear availiable to get the job done.

I also agree that a control tire would be the answer to situations like this,BUT I will say that this is a world level event.For that reason alone I dont think controls should be used because as we all know, in racing set-up can be the key between doing well and doing great, and I feel tire choice is a tuning feature that should be left open to the driver.

I would like to say that it sounds as if people are looking for this asphalt issue to be a scapegoat reason for provetti's resignation.When looking at the situation I think that Provetti's resignation had more to do with him choosing his own products for approved items to run as IFMAR legal.For an example to this just look at the approved battery page.2 of the 4 batteries listed are IB products which trinity is the sole distributer of(even the check point cells listed are relabeled IB's) The other 2 batteries there are GP cells that are not really a competitive cell at a club level, not to mention at a world level!I think his resignation came more from him trying to pad his companies wallet with increased revenue through his position in IFMAR.Your typical abuse of power situation.And I would lay a $20 bill down saying that he was given the choice to resign , or be fired. That is just my opinion , and the way I see things with the way the situation presents itself.
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Old 11-12-2008, 07:35 AM   #35
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Loving this quote... Most UK off-road racing is on grass ("this green and pleasant land") - you'll find plenty of people that disagree with what you are saying. The UK has produced an off-road world champion in Neil Cragg and multiple European champions.

And a lot of Japanese 12th racing is on asphalt - I don't think multiple WC Masami thinks it is not as it was intended.

Sounds like a lot of this is sour grapes because US drivers are not winning world titles, and in many cases not even bothering to enter. Just because the world championship is not to the US rules doesn't mean they are not as the racing was intended to be.
Neil is an awesome driver. But you really can't argue that the off-road cars are designed primarily for DIRT surfaces. They work quite well on grass, just as 12th scale cars work well on decent asphalt tracks, but it's not what they were really designed for.

And I never stated that 12th scale should always be on carpet. I suggested that the surfaces be rotated each event. Why does everyone believe that the TC worlds should always be on asphalt?
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Old 11-12-2008, 09:27 AM   #36
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Neil is an awesome driver. But you really can't argue that the off-road cars are designed primarily for DIRT surfaces.
I disagree, grass is technically "off the road". I've talked to Pops Losi (you know, the founder of Team Losi ) when the XX-4 was being tested at the Ranch Pit Shop, and he told me that the basic off-road suspension designs they use will work on any surface (grass, dirt etc). It was all about the driver's ability and setup.

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just as 12th scale cars work well on decent asphalt tracks, but it's not what they were really designed for.
Says who? Asphalt just requires a different setup than carpet. I understand the traction argument, and I understand that companies will make "carpet only" parts, but I'm pretty sure that companies like AE design cars to be run on both surfaces.
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Old 11-12-2008, 09:36 AM   #37
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just as 12th scale cars work well on decent asphalt tracks, but it's not what they were really designed for.
And touring cars weren't designed to run on carpet.. they were originally meant for unprepared parkinglots..
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Old 11-12-2008, 09:38 AM   #38
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Why does everyone believe that the TC worlds should always be on asphalt?

Because of the same excuse you're using the run 12th scale on a rug..


"It's what they were designed for."
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:12 AM   #39
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Hi Sosidge

Sorry to dissapoint you! Who are you?... do we race together anywhere? Do you do the 1/12th nationals in the UK? Where do you race 1/12th at club level?

I looked up your blog... no 1/12th cars on there that I can see. It might be behind the times and you got into 12th reciently.

Have you raced 1/12th at a Worlds or European event? No? I have done the last 3 Euros and a Worlds.... All on carpet which is my preference. Look up rcracechat in the 12th section and you will find 90% of the UK 12th community prefer carpet.

You may disagree with my opinion but I'm not sure you can have one here unless you race the class. I might be wrong, for all I know you are Spashett under another name :-)

Thanks for pointing out to me the issues I raised that were "relevant"!

Cheers

M



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Originally Posted by sosidge View Post
I'm quite disappointed to read this post from a fellow Brit because I thought you would have been more open to the "world" of racing, which includes 12th on tarmac - instead of the "I race 12th on carpet so why bother with anything else" attitude you have displayed here.

There is nothing wrong with running 12th on tarmac. End of.

But you do raise a couple of relevant issues...
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:26 AM   #40
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Default Numbers at Florida 2004

What was the 12th attendance at Florida 2004?

This was on Asphalt also I believe. I was just returning to 12th at this point so its just off my radar.

Numbers anyone? Was it popular?

Regards

Mark
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:30 AM   #41
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Hi Sosidge

Sorry to dissapoint you! Who are you?... do we race together anywhere? Do you do the 1/12th nationals in the UK? Where do you race 1/12th at club level?

I looked up your blog... no 1/12th cars on there that I can see. It might be behind the times and you got into 12th reciently.

Have you raced 1/12th at a Worlds or European event? No? I have done the last 3 Euros and a Worlds.... All on carpet which is my preference. Look up rcracechat in the 12th section and you will find 90% of the UK 12th community prefer carpet.

You may disagree with my opinion but I'm not sure you can have one here unless you race the class. I might be wrong, for all I know you are Spashett under another name :-)

Thanks for pointing out to me the issues I raised that were "relevant"!

Cheers

M
So just because Sosidge may not be a 12th regular, he can't have an opinion on the "World racing scene"?

12th on asphalt is very popular in Asia. Just because it isn't in the UK and the US doesn't mean it HAS to be on carpet everytime. A variety is good, we had the worlds last time on carpet, this time it's on asphalt. I think thats fair.

Just because a talented 15 year old laps everyone but his team mate, because he had the right tyre/set up and drove extremely well, thats not racing?

I'm from the UK and have a Corally 12th, so hopefully I am allowed an opinion.

I do understand you would prefer 12th to be on carpet (as would I), although I don't think its right to demand it. Other parts of the world would prefer asphalt so they should have variety IMO

You have a very selfish view
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:41 AM   #42
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This thread is going in a whack direction. Who the hell cares what surface you run on because EVERYONE ELSE is too. Equal grounds, so what is the determining factor?: your ability to adapt to the track condition.
We run out 1/12th in a semi-smooth parking lot. We clean the area and use sugar water. The grip is good, and most of the drivers have the cars dialed for this condition. We enjoy racing 1/12th scale and that is all.
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:46 AM   #43
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What was the 12th attendance at Florida 2004?

This was on Asphalt also I believe. I was just returning to 12th at this point so its just off my radar.

Numbers anyone? Was it popular?

Regards

Mark
Hi Mark

Can answer some questions on 2004 Worlds as I attended not sure on numbers but was definatly more than 2008 drivers racing from the Uk 8 and working in the pits more.

One thing I can say is that we all had a good time even though in my opinion the running of the event was poor (apart from Scotty who was excelent).

Running on asphalt would I do it again well to be honest yes is it my prefered surface no at the end of the day rules are rules and drivers made their choice .
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:49 AM   #44
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Hello 415Racer (grief why dont people use names!)

I am selfish. I am mature enough to realise that people primarily work towards self interest and I am no different.

Was the 12th Worlds well attended.?.. No
Did I go? No
Would I have gone if it was on carpet? Yes

I understand your thinking on variety and as a 12th racer you are entitled to it (can I ask if you have actually ever put your 12th down outdoors?).

Sosidge does not have to be a 12th "regular" ... he just needs to be a 12th racer and I'm yet to be convinced that he is... I may be wrong.

I also race TC on both carpet and asphalt (I prefer asphalt outdoors for TC)... Would I race at a TC worlds? No.... (I'm not good enough and I'm not bothered).... I therefore have no opinion on Worlds TC racing surfaces... my opinion would be irrelivant so I would not offer it.

Cheers

M

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So just because Sosidge may not be a 12th regular, he can't have an opinion on the "World racing scene"?

12th on asphalt is very popular in Asia. Just because it isn't in the UK and the US doesn't mean it HAS to be on carpet everytime. A variety is good, we had the worlds last time on carpet, this time it's on asphalt. I think thats fair.

Just because a talented 15 year old laps everyone but his team mate, because he had the right tyre/set up and drove extremely well, thats not racing?

I'm from the UK and have a Corally 12th, so hopefully I am allowed an opinion.

I do understand you would prefer 12th to be on carpet (as would I), although I don't think its right to demand it. Other parts of the world would prefer asphalt so they should have variety IMO

You have a very selfish view
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:49 AM   #45
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Because of the same excuse you're using the run 12th scale on a rug..


"It's what they were designed for."
MY ENTIRE POINT ABOUT ALTERNATING SURFACES EVERY TWO YEARS!! Asphalt 2008, Carpet 2009. Then everybody's happy. Christ........
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