The future of 1/12 scale
10-17-2008, 12:16 PM
#46
Balanced view, Slapmaster, thanks.
A piece of advice from a dedicated 12th racer (30 years) to those who want to change it - change your rhetoric. If you want people like me on board (dedicated 12th racer, fast-follower in most things new, early adopter in others, disposable income) then you have to stop telling me that there is something wrong with me for not immediately jumping on your bandwagon.
Words like stubborn, lost in the past, hating change, etc. just make me get on here and flame you. My Company works in a rapidly changing market, my role involves creating change, and the World around me is changing daily. My hobby, on the other hand, is relatively stable. I don't think I am unusual.
The big attraction of 12th is that it doesn't change. I don't have to be at all the big meetings making sure I know what the latest thing is, I don't have to worry about finding out what the latest thing does to my set-ups, etc. etc. My hobby is for fun, not for more hard work. If you want to make changes, for me, they are going to have to a lot easier than ripping everything out and replacing it all in one go.
And, it isn't that we don't promote and adopt change. Look here at what cars used to be like and tell me 12th hasn't changed. But look carefully and you find that each change came along slowly, and it didn't alienate half the drivers in one stroke. That's how 12th works, and has survived so long.
Big chunks of change don't suit everyone, and telling them they have some character flaw if they don't adopt some (badly thought through, in this case, as Slapmaster points out) radical change isn't your best marketing ploy. Sell to me by all means, but name-calling will make me hang up on you - and hundreds of others will do the same.
A piece of advice from a dedicated 12th racer (30 years) to those who want to change it - change your rhetoric. If you want people like me on board (dedicated 12th racer, fast-follower in most things new, early adopter in others, disposable income) then you have to stop telling me that there is something wrong with me for not immediately jumping on your bandwagon.
Words like stubborn, lost in the past, hating change, etc. just make me get on here and flame you. My Company works in a rapidly changing market, my role involves creating change, and the World around me is changing daily. My hobby, on the other hand, is relatively stable. I don't think I am unusual.
The big attraction of 12th is that it doesn't change. I don't have to be at all the big meetings making sure I know what the latest thing is, I don't have to worry about finding out what the latest thing does to my set-ups, etc. etc. My hobby is for fun, not for more hard work. If you want to make changes, for me, they are going to have to a lot easier than ripping everything out and replacing it all in one go.
And, it isn't that we don't promote and adopt change. Look here at what cars used to be like and tell me 12th hasn't changed. But look carefully and you find that each change came along slowly, and it didn't alienate half the drivers in one stroke. That's how 12th works, and has survived so long.
Big chunks of change don't suit everyone, and telling them they have some character flaw if they don't adopt some (badly thought through, in this case, as Slapmaster points out) radical change isn't your best marketing ploy. Sell to me by all means, but name-calling will make me hang up on you - and hundreds of others will do the same.
10-17-2008, 12:19 PM
#47
RolandS,
I have tried the smaller motor options.
I have tired a 28x8 1100KV outrunner, 28x12 1100KV outrunner, 28x45 2100KV inrunner. I would have tried the 20X motors but I did not want to buy 2mm shaft pinions.
When I was testing motors for my solar car which again I will add is 150g more than a 880g 1:12 car the power with a yeah racing 3200lipo was really too much. Not that it would be too much to drive, just it would be too much for a reset point in speed. The motors I was testing were IMO the slowest of the bunch since I was looking at efficiency. If the rules are going to change, change to a point where the stock speeds are managable for new drivers and the MOD options are still very fast. 3.7V lipo can provide that reset it speed and fast speeds with 3.5, 2.5 and 2T motors
The reason why I favor the 3.7V lipo is that it will be very easy for any exsisting drivers and cars to convert or adapt to. Option 1, buy everything new. Option two for current drivers use the same motor and just solder off a cell on the 4-cell packs and the cost is limited to $10 should a RX pack be needed.
What you are suggesting is that racers jump ship on the current cars they own, on the current motors they own, on the current batteries they own and are pretty much asking them to spend $400 just to go to the smaller motors.
I will agree that maybe the "540" or 36mm dia motors are a bit hefty for our cars and in the future I would like to see smaller 28mm or 20mm motor.
So to be fair, why not take the conversion to set phases.
Phase 1: 3.7V Lipo/3-cell NiMH for 2009 racing, class weight reduced to 820g(29oz) to reflect the loss of one Sub-C battery.
Phase 2: 28mm Motors only starting in 2015, weight reduced to 750g to reflect the smaller motor and ESC's having 3.7V BEC circuits.
By putting the motor change 6 years into the future, manufactures can start tinkering with designs changes and motor companies fine tune a power plant so that governing bodies can pick motors to fill the power needs of STOCK, SUPER STOCK, LIGHT MOD, MODIFIED. By delaying the drastic changes later, racers will not be buying cars or motors that will be outdated or illegal per the rules and racers will have better knowledge of what to buy in 6 years.
I have tried the smaller motor options.
I have tired a 28x8 1100KV outrunner, 28x12 1100KV outrunner, 28x45 2100KV inrunner. I would have tried the 20X motors but I did not want to buy 2mm shaft pinions.
When I was testing motors for my solar car which again I will add is 150g more than a 880g 1:12 car the power with a yeah racing 3200lipo was really too much. Not that it would be too much to drive, just it would be too much for a reset point in speed. The motors I was testing were IMO the slowest of the bunch since I was looking at efficiency. If the rules are going to change, change to a point where the stock speeds are managable for new drivers and the MOD options are still very fast. 3.7V lipo can provide that reset it speed and fast speeds with 3.5, 2.5 and 2T motors
The reason why I favor the 3.7V lipo is that it will be very easy for any exsisting drivers and cars to convert or adapt to. Option 1, buy everything new. Option two for current drivers use the same motor and just solder off a cell on the 4-cell packs and the cost is limited to $10 should a RX pack be needed.
What you are suggesting is that racers jump ship on the current cars they own, on the current motors they own, on the current batteries they own and are pretty much asking them to spend $400 just to go to the smaller motors.
I will agree that maybe the "540" or 36mm dia motors are a bit hefty for our cars and in the future I would like to see smaller 28mm or 20mm motor.
So to be fair, why not take the conversion to set phases.
Phase 1: 3.7V Lipo/3-cell NiMH for 2009 racing, class weight reduced to 820g(29oz) to reflect the loss of one Sub-C battery.
Phase 2: 28mm Motors only starting in 2015, weight reduced to 750g to reflect the smaller motor and ESC's having 3.7V BEC circuits.
By putting the motor change 6 years into the future, manufactures can start tinkering with designs changes and motor companies fine tune a power plant so that governing bodies can pick motors to fill the power needs of STOCK, SUPER STOCK, LIGHT MOD, MODIFIED. By delaying the drastic changes later, racers will not be buying cars or motors that will be outdated or illegal per the rules and racers will have better knowledge of what to buy in 6 years.
10-17-2008, 12:31 PM
#48
Kinda hard to see with my cell photo. But you have two real options for mounting a smaller motor that has eithe 16mm or 19mm space mounting holes as found on 20mm and 28mm motors.
1st option
You can use a 3Racing adapator plate or I think Axial has an adaptor plate for the motor. This will center the motor in the middle of mounting holes or 6mm above the chassis bottom. I used the 3Racing plate and didn't like how the plate was touching my T-Plate. So I went to Option 2
2nd option, you can do as shown with mounting cross plate with the 16mm and 19mm mounting holes. Most cross plates are 0.5mm thinner than the motor adaptors from 3Racing giving more Pinion Shaft to work with. One tab of the cross bar will need to be trimmed shorter (the tab poking out the bottom). On the cell photo with the 28x45 2100kb motor, the motor is shown mounted to be flush to the motor pod bottom for lower CG. On my solar car pod the motor is shown to be mounted high (see a few post above). This was to increase the distance from axle to use a larger pinion and spur for better efficiency.
Last edited by trailranger; 10-17-2008 at 12:46 PM.
10-17-2008, 12:33 PM
#49
Not disagreeing Fred, merely playing a bit o' devil's advocate. It seems that many of your "arguments" for one vs. the other really aren't differences, and that some of the differences have been "multiplied" (identified more than once). You also need to acknowledge that what you have on YOUR equipment shelf may be more (or less) than what others have on their shelf.
Yes, we all have different equipment on the "shelf"... At the moment, we almost ALL have the same equipment in the car and that's to ROAR rules. A minimum change will be the cheapest for most running 12th.
Everyone needs to make their own minds up on this and not all of us will agree. Personally, I just don't have the "belief is that we make all the changes at once". For me, the only issue with 12th at the moment is that the cars are too fast for new racers (not just 12th by the way).
10-17-2008, 12:38 PM
#50
1) DUH its FASTER and FASTER Isnt better right now
2) Well, not really. People have to think about what to buy not just do it.
3) Tottaly off base today, Maybe in a decade it will be but with the conversion cost it will not be and right now not many people have money to blow.
10-17-2008, 12:39 PM
#51
Well guys, allow me to throw my two cents in this deal. I am new to the 12th scale on road thing but I have been running 12th scale oval for a while. We started out with 6 cell stock then went to 6 cell mod in these little monsters.Once the technology got things up and going faster they got WAY to fast.Now I know what your thinking, how can a race car be to fast? We had a small track, about a 100foot line, and with the speeds they were going, a driver could not react quick enough to miss a car that had stopped or was going slower that we were. We even had a few of these missiles go off track and hurt spectators. The answer was 4 cell, lot more controllable, especially for beginners.So speed is not what I am after, I want to see cars that are as fast as needed but still be under control.
I like the LIPO thing, bought my first 2s packs about a month ago to run in a touring car and I am hooked. I still run nimh in my 12th scale but would love to do LIPO. I have not jumped into brushless as of yet but plan on doing it soon. The small Mamba thing sounds interesting and I would like to see more info on it. I have been thinking on trying a single cell lipo with my brushed motors just to see what the diffrence is. I will keep my ears open and can't wait to see where this goes.
I like the LIPO thing, bought my first 2s packs about a month ago to run in a touring car and I am hooked. I still run nimh in my 12th scale but would love to do LIPO. I have not jumped into brushless as of yet but plan on doing it soon. The small Mamba thing sounds interesting and I would like to see more info on it. I have been thinking on trying a single cell lipo with my brushed motors just to see what the diffrence is. I will keep my ears open and can't wait to see where this goes.
10-17-2008, 01:45 PM
#52
Tech Rookie
Insp Gadgt and Big Daddy Cool
well, there is a bodshell exist....
10-17-2008, 02:01 PM
#53
Tech Fanatic
...that is the most front-endy, unfriendly bodyshell I have ever used. They flooded the market in Europe a couple of months back, and no one uses them now. Avoid, IMHO. Unless, of course, you want a nice replica of an Audi on your shelf... 
10-17-2008, 02:19 PM
#54
And that there proves my point...that looks no where near as scale as what I'm looking for...it is barely recognizeable as the car it is supposed to represent.
The idea that we were trying to get across wasn't that we want that particular body...we want bodies with the kind of scale appearance and detal like Tamiya does on their bodies.
The idea that we were trying to get across wasn't that we want that particular body...we want bodies with the kind of scale appearance and detal like Tamiya does on their bodies.
Funniest thing I've read in a long time. Thanks!
10-17-2008, 02:50 PM
#56
I totally agree!!! Let's not make this a mess, and did anyone done testing on how less weight will affect the handeling of a 1/12 scale car? Most importantly will a new guy to racing be able to handel a super light weight, super fast 1/12? I would like to see some testing on this, what happens if the car is just to twitchy to drive?
10-17-2008, 02:55 PM
#57
IMO, I don't think the car would handle at all, especaily (spelling?) with sidebite. By going to the lipo And the 380 motor you have elimanated 1/3 to 1/2 the weight. Will the car really want to do anything but drive in a straight line, or at best, drive into a corner trying to make it a 40 radius? My question is why are we even trying to get away from the NiMH batts anyway? I have raced them for 6 years now, and I haven't had ANY problems with mine at all. This all seems like a few are try to fix something that isn't broke for the masses. Just my .02.
10-17-2008, 02:59 PM
#58
Tech Adept
And that there proves my point...that looks no where near as scale as what I'm looking for...it is barely recognizeable as the car it is supposed to represent.
The idea that we were trying to get across wasn't that we want that particular body...we want bodies with the kind of scale appearance and detal like Tamiya does on their bodies.
The idea that we were trying to get across wasn't that we want that particular body...we want bodies with the kind of scale appearance and detal like Tamiya does on their bodies.
I decided to run the normal 12th scale lmp/gtp bodies. For practice, I have a realistic Tamiya Mini Cooper bodyshell. It's not as fast as other shells, but everyone will watch your mini, when you are racing.
10-17-2008, 03:02 PM
#59
IMO, I don't think the car would handle at all, especaily (spelling?) with sidebite. By going to the lipo And the 380 motor you have elimanated 1/3 to 1/2 the weight. Will the car really want to do anything but drive in a straight line, or at best, drive into a corner trying to make it a 40 radius?
10-17-2008, 03:21 PM
#60
I did read, and you didn't read my rebutalls?
1) DUH its FASTER and FASTER Isnt better right now
2) Well, not really. People have to think about what to buy not just do it.
3) Tottaly off base today, Maybe in a decade it will be but with the conversion cost it will not be and right now not many people have money to blow.
1) DUH its FASTER and FASTER Isnt better right now
2) Well, not really. People have to think about what to buy not just do it.
3) Tottaly off base today, Maybe in a decade it will be but with the conversion cost it will not be and right now not many people have money to blow.
1) When people tell you something, it's up to each individual how to take it.
So, when I said it's fast, it means that such a set up is not a slouch.
If I'm trying to sell you a race car, and tell you it's slow, would you buy it?
In my first post, I said both set up are capable of fast pace and slow,
even slower than stock pace. In post #41, I've just realized I've left
some info out when I'm trying to reply to you. My bad, please go back to
post #41 , at the very end, I've just add 2 links to two of slower motors
coming my way.
2) I'm in the middle of putting all necessary info. out there, give me some time.
I'll show you what to get/what I use, and where to get them.
3) I had three paragraphs regarding "IT'S CHEAPER"
I really don't understand which part of "It's cheaper" you don't understand?
And says who you need a conversion kid/cost?
Last edited by Roland S; 10-17-2008 at 11:56 PM.