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Old 10-20-2008, 09:22 PM   #106
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Dead Class, no way.

I really don't think you can compare numbers attending a big race as a way of saying that 12th car racing is on the decline, that does n't make sense. It may be that there were more TC racers at a big meeting than 12th car racers at the same meeting but all's that says is that more people are into TC racing than 12ths at that particular meeting, nothing more than that. The Nationals over here in the UK are still full and still have a reserve list to attend them. That show's, at least in the UK, that 12ths are alive and kicking!! I would also like to ask if Sub C cells are not going to be made any more, what will be inside all the power tools that currently use sub C's in the future?

Cheers guys.
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Old 10-20-2008, 09:28 PM   #107
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I would imagine Sub C will be around for quite a while. What I don't expect to see is matchers matching them like we are used to. Even now I have a hard time finding good matched cells in stock. Not that they CAN'T be found now, but of the 6 or so major sites I visited today looking for 4 cell Ener-g packs, more than a few showed none in stock, or they are no longer selling NiMh cells.
I have been looking to buy a few new packs and we just don't seem to have the options we used to. I have to think this has something to do with sedans migrating to primarily lipo power.
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Old 10-20-2008, 09:44 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by wingman2 View Post
Dead Class?? You HAVE to be JOKING yeah??!
Wingmoa2:

Iím not joking at all.

If you race on road seriously with NiMH, You need to carry 4 good packs of battery, 2~4 packs of practice battery pack and two chargers just to race one class. Now you can just use the SAME battery and one charger all day long for the same race. And there are quite a few people do just that in my local track.

At this moment, not every country allows the use of lipo for rc racing, but US does.
And once people try it, they wonít go back to NiMH ever again. Trust me.
IMO, itíll be foolish to buy NiMH again, once youíve experienced the benefit and convenience of lipo. And thatís why a lot of the people stop racing 1/12 for now.
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Old 10-20-2008, 10:29 PM   #109
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When the biggest race for 12th scale gets a whopping 57 entries (IIC Las Vegas, I was there by the way, though did not race) I would say the class is dead. Hell, the Nitro Pit and Revalation get 50 1/8th scale cars on a big club night.

I DO remember the hayday of 12th scale, and would like to see a reasonable return to it. Lets not argue semantics, I understand that everyone here is an avid enthusiast, and would like to see more interest, but the class is more or less at a low point, especially here in the western US.

The hassle free Brushless / Lipo / no REC Pack is the only way to restore the ease of use that this class used to be all about. I have boxes full of CRC cars tires and parts for when that day comes.

Cheers
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Old 10-20-2008, 10:35 PM   #110
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I meant to add, after reading through some of the replies and posts made here, that its amazing to see how passionate people are about this class, everyone really actually cares how it progresses. That enthusiasm is what will carry 1:12 scale into its new form.
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Old 10-20-2008, 10:44 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seyruuen View Post
When the biggest race for 12th scale gets a whopping 57 entries (IIC Las Vegas, I was there by the way, though did not race) I would say the class is dead. Hell, the Nitro Pit and Revalation get 50 1/8th scale cars on a big club night.

I DO remember the hayday of 12th scale, and would like to see a reasonable return to it. Lets not argue semantics, I understand that everyone here is an avid enthusiast, and would like to see more interest, but the class is more or less at a low point, especially here in the western US.

The hassle free Brushless / Lipo / no REC Pack is the only way to restore the ease of use that this class used to be all about. I have boxes full of CRC cars tires and parts for when that day comes.

Cheers
The one problem with your agument is that on-road in general is dead here in the Phx area, heck SRS cannot even field an on-road race due to the lack of racers in the Valley area. So its hard to draw any compairisons baised on the turnouts(0) in this area. But I love all this talk and testing and am all for going to a workable lipo solution for 1/12. I just wish I had somewhere to do so of this testing myself
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Old 10-20-2008, 11:18 PM   #112
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Can we put a little more facts into the debate, and less opinion? If you are commenting on using NiMh, please state if you use them, or LiPo. I use NiMh.

I bought three (4-cell) packs of Orion SHO cells (a 3700-based cell available in Europe). I used them four times with the charge-drive-store-charge regime (just like a LiPo) and then checked them - perfect. I used them for Club racing, then used them at our National against some EnerG cells that have been balanced before every charge - couldn't tell any difference. My EnerG cells are now up to about 20 cycles with no drop-off in performance. We are back to the NiMh cells we had before IB wrecked the market.

If you haven't used NiMh in the last six months, please do not talk about what they were like 12 months ago. EnerG cells, and in Europe, the Orion SHO cells are no problem. The problem is, and always has been, IB cells - avoid!

As for 12th racers not taking on any new technology, please check out this site. We were probably the first with CF, the first with all foam tyre derivations, and the first with aerodynamics as a tuning device (the body). Our class has had more development and change within the same Rules than any other class out there.

Stop calling me names because I don't want to jump on a technology bandwagon with a limited life using a product that needs wholesale changes to the car. I am not a diehard, or a stick-in-the-mud or anything else. I am an RC racer who does this for a hobby, not a paid employee who has to do as they are told. The odd thing is (in the UK) the more people who push LiPo the more drivers we get coming from TC to 12th.

The only people who want LiPo in 12th are the people who post on here and other forums. The silent majority of racers don't want it where I race. They are using the NiMh cells described above and having no problems. We are waiting for the Panasonic (2.4v) and A123 (3v) technology to arrive, and then we will have ourselves a better battery, not just a different one.
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Old 10-20-2008, 11:21 PM   #113
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Cost of Batteries in 1:12

Why 3.7V LiPO could be cheaper for everyone in 1:12 racing including the NiMH racers.

My last few 4-cell packs cost me $50 a pack: shink wrap, my labor and bars.
One $75 LiPO pack will replace four of my $50 NimH packs and I can use the same pack longer than 4 months. Even if I bought the newest best battery every six months I would be saving myself over $400 a year compared to NiMH. I didn't think it added up that much untill I looked at my battery box. Since last November I have bought 12 4-cell Packs !!! $600 worth of packs that I could have just spent $150 for two good LiPO's.

But if I was racer that loved NiMH and worked the Voodoo to make the batteries fast, going to 3-cell would save me over $150 this last year. Because I didn't buy an extra cell for each of my 12 packs I bought last year each of my packs would be $10 to $12 cheaper!!!.

Either way, the cost savings of LiPO / 3-Cell NiMH seems very very appealing to me. I spend $10 for a RX pack, and save between $150 to $400 a year on race batteries!
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Old 10-20-2008, 11:57 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by timmay70 View Post
This class is far from dead. With 58 entries in 17.5 at Vegas this year, it was the most popular class with 13.5 rubber sedan in a close second at 57 entries. At our local track it is one of the more popular classes to run.
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Originally Posted by trailranger View Post
Well if you go by entires...Sedan is kocking tires off 1:12 for cars in the mains.

Sedans
17.5 Rubber Amature 41
13.5 Rubber 48
13.5 Foam 34
10.5 Foam 15
Mod Foam 19
Mod Rubber 20

Total Sedans 177 entries

All Pan Cars
17.5 1:12, 50
Mod 1/12 23
13.5 GT 30

Total PanCars 103 entries

I am not am not sure if 50 entries as the limit for each class and if 13.5 1:12 would have increased the number of entries. As you can see, 1:12 does field more racers per class compared to sedan. Maybe adding 13.5 1:12 would add 35 more entries. And by the looks of it, 10.5 can just be dropped since it will be dropped by ROAR.
Direct quote:Ē So, IMO, 1/12 scale racing wonít be meaningful much for the next few years, even for the regional event.Ē

If you guys would go back to read my first post, at the end of eighth paragraph if you count the first line as one paragraph, you could find the direct quote above.

What does it mean?
It means, in local and regional event, youíre going to see a big drop in number of participants, but not in a national event. Youíre still going to have good showing in 1/12 scale with big event. A lot of participants in big event are sponsored drivers. If each car manufacture has 4 drivers attend this race, which isnít too many in big event, and if you multiply that with number of car manufactures, that includes BMI, CRC, SPEED MERCHANT, DARKSIDE, DIGGITY, and TEAM ASSOCIATED, that along you have more than 20 participants under obligation to race in that class, imo.
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Old 10-21-2008, 06:19 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by trailranger View Post
My last few 4-cell packs cost me $50 a pack: shink wrap, my labor and bars.
One $75 LiPO pack will replace four of my $50 NimH packs and I can use the same pack longer than 4 months. Even if I bought the newest best battery every six months I would be saving myself over $400 a year compared to NiMH. I didn't think it added up that much untill I looked at my battery box. Since last November I have bought 12 4-cell Packs !!! $600 worth of packs that I could have just spent $150 for two good LiPO's.
We make our own budget. You CAN run a whole season (winter around here) on 2-3 packs and be compeditive. I club raced last year on like 3 packs for the entire season and I ran mod at the bigger races and some club races.

With the new cells the whole worn out battery thing is not an issue unless youre abusing the cells in some way. We know from mod racing that dumping the cells hard on the track, cycling the cells all the time, and not traying the cells before you charge are all ways to kill a pack. It's not that hard to keep a pack in good shape but it's easy to screw one up.

LiPo has it's own set of issues and they don't like to dump hard, have unbalanced cells, or sit for a long time without being used.
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Old 10-21-2008, 08:03 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Seyruuen View Post
When the biggest race for 12th scale gets a whopping 57 entries (IIC Las Vegas, I was there by the way, though did not race) I would say the class is dead. Hell, the Nitro Pit and Revalation get 50 1/8th scale cars on a big club night.
The IIC isn't the biggest 12th scale race of the year. It's THE biggest TC race for sure, but not 12th scale. The single most popular class at the IIC was still 12th 17.5, and the race is held on the side of the country that traditionally doesn't race 12th scale. 12th stock was the biggest class at this year's Carpet Nats as well.

The 2.4v Panasonic cell is very promising, two cells=4.8v direct parity to our 4-cell rules.

17.5 is currently slightly slower than 27t brushed, so we've slowed the cars, but they're still too fast. Answer? 21.5 stock, 13.5 "super-stock", leave Mod where it is.

The way technology is progressing, LIPO will eventually be superceded by another technology. Why not let our class remain as it is untill a more practical solution is brought to the table? Because believe me, the quickest way to kill any class is to make FUNDAMENTAL changes that alienate those who are already supporting the longest running class in Electric RC.
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Old 10-21-2008, 09:50 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred_B View Post
We make our own budget. You CAN run a whole season (winter around here) on 2-3 packs and be compeditive. I club raced last year on like 3 packs for the entire season and I ran mod at the bigger races and some club races.
Most of last year I was doing weekly oval racing with two 4-cell classes. That could be the reason why I ended up with 12 packs during one year of racing. I save all my old packs and recycle them when I get a box full.

But the cost savings would hold true for most racers. A 3-cell pack would be $10 to 12 cheaper than a 4-cell pack. I am sure some racers who have gone to LiPO will continue to use the same pack for over a year just as they did for some NiMH batteries.
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Old 10-21-2008, 11:35 AM   #118
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Interesting topic..."the future of 1/12th scale"

Could also be "the future of RC" as so many classes are going to go through their own growing pains in one way or another.

I will say this...I'm a longtime hobbist and racer (80's) and 1/12th scale has always been my favorite class. But someone with limited time...racing is getting harder to enjoy.

For me...it's become confusing...the legality of batteries, bodies, motors? Someone who takes a break for a year comes back to

I recently attended a 1/8th fuel on-road regional event and enjoyed myself because of the simplicity of racing. Nitro engines are still 21 size...and you can be very competitive with older equipment.

Now winter season is coming to the North East and I have a few 1/12th ready to go...the question becomes which NiMH to buy, do I run brushless or brushed and what the latest and greatest techniques for maintianing you're $$$ investment. (ie: batteries - as I have 40+ packs of paper weights stored in my hobby room)

Years ago I dumped all my sedan products because the price to race and maintenance of sedans were getting out of hand. Now, because of brushless / Lipo technology and the inclusion of rubber tires, I can see why sedans are more popular in our area than 1/12th scale. Basically you get to focus on enjoyment of driving and not wrenching. (although I miss wrenching)

IMO, a move to simplify the ability to race will enhance the racing experience. I'm old school, and love 1/12th scale, but without an introduction to Lipo's, the class is going to loose popularity with "club" racers. I realize that some of us just don't have the time we use to.

The Pro's will always run a class in its traditional form...its the "club" racers that promote the popularity of a class.
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Old 10-21-2008, 11:44 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Giordano View Post
Interesting topic..."the future of 1/12th scale"

Could also be "the future of RC" as so many classes are going to go through their own growing pains in one way or another.

I will say this...I'm a longtime hobbist and racer (80's) and 1/12th scale has always been my favorite class. But someone with limited time...racing is getting harder to enjoy.

For me...it's become confusing...the legality of batteries, bodies, motors? Someone who takes a break for a year comes back to

I recently attended a 1/8th fuel on-road regional event and enjoyed myself because of the simplicity of racing. Nitro engines are still 21 size...and you can be very competitive with older equipment.

Now winter season is coming to the North East and I have a few 1/12th ready to go...the question becomes which NiMH to buy, do I run brushless or brushed and what the latest and greatest techniques for maintianing you're $$$ investment. (ie: batteries - as I have 40+ packs of paper weights stored in my hobby room)

Years ago I dumped all my sedan products because the price to race and maintenance of sedans were getting out of hand. Now, because of brushless / Lipo technology and the inclusion of rubber tires, I can see why sedans are more popular in our area than 1/12th scale. Basically you get to focus on enjoyment of driving and not wrenching. (although I miss wrenching)

IMO, a move to simplify the ability to race will enhance the racing experience. I'm old school, and love 1/12th scale, but without an introduction to Lipo's, the class is going to loose popularity with "club" racers. I realize that some of us just don't have the time we use to.

The Pro's will always run a class in its traditional form...its the "club" racers that promote the popularity of a class.
Well said by someone that "gets it"
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Old 10-21-2008, 01:33 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by CypressMidWest View Post
The IIC isn't the biggest 12th scale race of the year. It's THE biggest TC race for sure, but not 12th scale. The single most popular class at the IIC was still 12th 17.5, and the race is held on the side of the country that traditionally doesn't race 12th scale. 12th stock was the biggest class at this year's Carpet Nats as well.

The 2.4v Panasonic cell is very promising, two cells=4.8v direct parity to our 4-cell rules.

17.5 is currently slightly slower than 27t brushed, so we've slowed the cars, but they're still too fast. Answer? 21.5 stock, 13.5 "super-stock", leave Mod where it is.

The way technology is progressing, LIPO will eventually be superceded by another technology. Why not let our class remain as it is untill a more practical solution is brought to the table? Because believe me, the quickest way to kill any class is to make FUNDAMENTAL changes that alienate those who are already supporting the longest running class in Electric RC.

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