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Old 05-15-2014, 07:48 AM   #886
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Replacing stock, with 380 mod, would also reduce rear grip a bit, I think.

Mod classes survive. And are fair. The question we should ask: Can we make a Mod 1/12th class that's as slow as Stock?
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Old 05-15-2014, 08:45 AM   #887
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21.5, 1s, open timing.

Or 380 can open mod, 1s.


Blinky is too hard too enforce. All of the cheating nonsense is getting old. If a rule is easy to get around by cheating, it's not a very good rule. Find another solution please and lets us play with our ESC's, if we choose. Often something else, even the track, can be changed to slow racing down. There are many better options than blinky.

For blinky to survive, as is, ROAR is going to have to:
-spec ESC. Something obsolete and cheap without any computer connection ability.
-spec sealed motor. "Oh your rotor or bearings failed, tough $^&*, got to buy a new one to keep that seal." Weld the can closed, maybe make a motor where we can remove the shaft bearings from outside the motor?
-spec sealed battery

That's going too make it more $$$ for all of us. And forced spec electronics classes never last long. Stock racing has not been cheaper than mod for me.

Stock should be a slower racing class, because it sure as heck isn't a more even, cheaper class. Not even close. If that was the purpose of stock classes, that's got to be the biggest fail in RC.

Another thing that's bugging me. None of this is really important in off road 2wd. Mod/open isn't what I'd call "fast". The lack of traction outdoors limits those cars, and even 17.5 blinky is a FAIR drivers race, not a horsepower race. Yet they still moan and cry "cheat" as often as on roaders................. how much of this nonsense is just in our heads? ...and a complete non-issue?
Interesting observatons.

I see you are in Ohio. I'd be interested to know where you race onroad because the experience I have racing onroad in NE Ohio is very different from what you describe. Outside of some griping a few years back when open speedo transitioned to blinky I can't remember the last time I heard anyone mention blinky good or bad. It has become a non-issue. While I don't care whether we race blinky or open I do know that I see less people asking if 240 degrees is bad for their motor when they got their boost or turbo settings wrong. Sure some people are still smoking motors in blinky but the frequency seems much lower. As a positive, the overall level of driving seems to have gotten much better in the past couple years and I have a feeling this is partially due to people spending more time maximizing their chassis setup and driving rather than trying to win races on straight line speed. Regarding cost there is nothing ROAR or anyone else can do to stop people from spending a bunch of money. There are always going to be people that either think they can buy speed or just like having the newest and the best. It is up to the individual to determine what their budgetary pain point is and spend accordingly. I have a number of hobbies. RC is by far the least expensive. I've heard a number of people mention cost or motor of the week as their reasons for leaving. More times than not the reason they had no success is they sucked, their "program" sucked or a combination of the two. It is just easier to make up excuses about cost or some other nonsense than say "I don't have talent" or "I'm too much of a baby to accept getting my ass handed to me every week". These opinions are specific to on-road. I've no experience with off-road nor do I want to speculate on what works and why.
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Old 05-15-2014, 09:58 AM   #888
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I've run some touring car and 1/12th in the South. Many many years ago, when touring cars still had as much plastic as anything else.

Have never raced carpet in Ohio. But have allways wanted to. 2 friends and I are going to try 1/12th scale at the Gate this winter.

Hopefully we'll give it a fair try. Sounds more laid back than 2wd buggy stock.

Going to get a 17.5 and 21.5 for stock and "Gate Spec".
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Old 05-15-2014, 10:24 AM   #889
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I've run some touring car and 1/12th in the South. Many many years ago, when touring cars still had as much plastic as anything else.

Have never raced carpet in Ohio. But have allways wanted to. 2 friends and I are going to try 1/12th scale at the Gate this winter.

Hopefully we'll give it a fair try. Sounds more laid back than 2wd buggy stock.

Going to get a 17.5 and 21.5 for stock and "Gate Spec".
Good deal. Look forward to racing against you. Sounds like you are a seasoned racer but if you have questions don't be afraid to ask. The Gate has some really good 1/12th talent that will get you moving in the right direction if you need the help.
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Old 05-15-2014, 11:43 AM   #890
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Should I avoid the D3.5 17.5 or 21.5 in Ohio?

I heard they were the most durable choice, if they're allready used by enough racers before the ban that the area is Ok with them. We don't want to show up with six D3.5's if they're generally frowned upon, up here.

The "Gate spec" class seems handy for us newbs. No rollout to worry about. CRC procut tires and gears are spec'd allready. Sure makes it easier to start when we're limited to certain gears and tires. Just timing to adjust as the tires wear I guess.

Gear list (to get) so far:
Xray X12
17.5, 21.5
Turnigy 1s and Protech 1s Lipo
CRC procut magenta/pink, and yellow/blacks
Hobbywing 120a 1s ESC

specialty tools, mini height guage, glass plate etc.etc.

I'm sure glad to hear that the blinky stuff is a non-issue. Blinky non-sense really took the fun out of 17.5 SCT.

Last edited by Zerodefect; 05-15-2014 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 05-15-2014, 12:06 PM   #891
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Should I avoid the D3.5 17.5 or 21.5 in Ohio?

I heard they were the most durable choice, if they're allready used by enough racers before the ban that the area is Ok with them. We don't want to show up with six D3.5's if they're generally frowned upon, up here.

The "Gate spec" class seems handy for us newbs. No rollout to worry about. CRC procut tires and gears are spec'd allready. Sure makes it easier to start when we're limited to certain gears and tires. Just timing to adjust as the tires wear I guess.

Gear list (to get) so far:
Xray X12
17.5, 21.5
Turnigy 1s and Protech 1s Lipo
CRC procut magenta/pink, and yellow/blacks
Hobbywing 120a 1s ESC

specialty tools, mini height guage, glass plate etc.etc.
I have never run the D3.5 so I'm not exactly sure how long it will be "legal" at The Gate. My suggestion would be to send SG1 (who is The Gate's Track Director) a PM either here or on Hobbytalk and he will make sure you buy the correct stuff. He also builds some wicked motors (I'm running his motors in both TC and 1/12th) so he can help you out there as well if you decide to go that route.
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Old 05-15-2014, 12:10 PM   #892
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Can do, thanks.
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Old 05-15-2014, 01:16 PM   #893
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Ron, as usual you have good insight. I think the 21.5 class makes a lot of sense and I'm glad to see it do well locally. The formula you described almost completely mitigates the arguement that RC is overly expensive. My last pool cue cost more than a decent 21.5 setup. Cry me a river about the price of RC, Ha! That said I would actually prefer Stock 17.5 go to a 10.5 or a 13.5 at the least provided we stick with the 1 cell lipo. Coming from touring car I find it somewhat boring to run a track full throttle. To me having to modulate the power as to not break traction is an important part of driving that is missing for me in 17.5. Even better would be to go to 2s like everything else seems to be running and adjust the motor wind to suit. The availability of 1S speed controls makes things easier but I still notice a lot of people having trouble getting their head around what equipment they need to have a properly functioning car.
You need to try a F1 car to get that extreme "driving with the throttle" sensation.
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Old 05-15-2014, 01:23 PM   #894
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Cool

Lowest cost
Mostest power
Much throttle control

Try mod 12th

Yes tires will wear a bit faster, but
No motor of the week
Battery of the week
Charger of the week
etc...
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Old 05-15-2014, 01:29 PM   #895
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To Zero:
As Chazz says, contact SG1. The Gate is one of the best places I have ever raced at. The crew is top notch and the group of racers are very helpful and very knowledgeable.
On a side note, the 1/12 spec class has a spec battery and motor. The motor selected does not have adjustable timing. One thing that has showed up though, as the tires wear the cars start turning a little faster lap times due to a small improvement in handling. The starting diameter to the wear out doesn't need a tooth up to adjust for rollout. A great call by SG1 on setting the dia.
I could easily name four members there that have a total of more than 100 years of experience in R/C racing. I have been into it since 1988.
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Old 05-15-2014, 02:36 PM   #896
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That's good news.

Looks like the spec motor is a Speed Passion 21.5 (P/N 138215V3). Spec battery is dirt cheap.
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Old 05-15-2014, 08:13 PM   #897
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What I've come across reading old 1/12 threads is the trends that start up and become popular in Japan, eventually work their way to North America and Europe. Now, not all trends carry over, but some do. Hopefully, the 1/12 trend happening right now in Japan which is 21.5/ 2 cell will eventually hit North American and Europe race scenes.

Why 21.5 / 2 cell?

Chances of breaking parts is greatly reduced.
Tire wear is reduced.
2 cell ESC is required.
No boosters required.
No crazy pinion/spur combinations.
Roll outs are easy to maintain.
Close racing at manageable speeds.

Like I said, some trend make it and some don't. It really comes down to what the racers want. If you want your 1/12 class to flourish and grow I would highly suggest moving towards this trend. T
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Old 05-15-2014, 08:30 PM   #898
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I'm not so sure those first 2 points would pan out that way. 2 cell 21.5 in F1 is very fast on the straights. The only reason the lap times are on the slow side is because the cars are bigger and the heavy rubber tires don't handle nearly as well as a 1/12th on foam. My guess would be 2 cell 21.5 in 1/12th scale would be close in speed to 1 cell 13.5...or faster.
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Old 05-15-2014, 10:43 PM   #899
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Looks pretty quick to me.

Not to say that the high voltage high turn combo isn't interesting. But slow, it's not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJ0uWybYH1Q
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Old 05-15-2014, 11:36 PM   #900
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Thanks for your input InspGadgt

I too race F1 2 cell 21.5, but on foam tires . Obviously, you cant compare lap times with rubber tire F1 with 1/12th. However, I can tell you this. I run both F1 foam and 1/12th at the same track using the same motors. I can say with confidence the lap times only differ by 0.5-0.7 a lap. Yes, the 1/12th much lighter, faster and nimble in the infield, but the speed difference isn't all that much on the straight. The F1 in the infield is quite cumbersome and not as nimble in the handling department which results in slower lap times. But, it's straightway speed isn't far off from 1/12th. That being said, from my experience running F1 foam, I think it would easy for someone to transition from F1 21.5 to 1/12 21.5 with relative ease. Also, if someone can drive a F1 21.5 rubber with ease than 1/12th 21.5 will be a breeze to handle.


I mentioned the chances of breaking is minimal.

I can say I've broken more parts on my F1 than my 1/12. This is inherent with an open wheel design such as F1. The only part I've broken on my 1/12 is a pillow ball on my 1/12th. But, every driver is different and every circuit is different. I run on an outdoor asphalt track with no wood boards, just concrete curbing.

Tire wear

Okay, I would say tire wear is reduced slightly. But, I can run one set of tires in a day 3 heats and qualifier without wearing them down to the rim. That's with tires trued at 44 front and 45 rear. Total laps would be in the 200-250 range before the tires are carpet worthy.

The above statements are just observations I have made while running both classes.
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