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Old 03-05-2013, 05:44 PM   #871
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I like to tinker around and its just laying around. I dont have a carpet track to run on - so ......

I think the weight of a small systeam could work on asphalt as not so hard on tires.
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Old 05-15-2014, 04:29 AM   #872
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hi guys
i know this is an old thread and it should be left alone but i cant help myself, as an enthusiast who has just bought my first 1/12th after a few 1/10 and 1/8 models i would like to share my opinion whether it is insightful or not.
firstly the future has not panned out as was hoped for in the first post of this thread, 540 motors and 1s lipo rules this class for better or for worse, i believe for the better motor wise but worse battery wise.
in my humble opinion bigger motors are always better, this may sound ill informed neanderthal talk but the larger the can the better a motor will dissipate heat and the better performance we can extract from it, maybe indoors there is to much power but from where i go to a larger outdoor track, the more the merrier, besides different motor turns can accommodate different speeds required, manufacturers are also releasing purpose built 540 brushless motors specifically for 1/12th, lighter motors making less torque and using less power, on top of this in my situation rear traction is at a premium and the more weight out the back the better. maybe indoors a 380 type motor can be better, maybe this could happen as a parallel class , i can also see the advantage of a lighter car ( less damage and wear ) but it hasn't happened for one reason or another.
However i wholeheartedly agree that 2s lipo would definitely have been a better way to go, higher voltage means less current for the same power resulting in cooler temps and more efficient running. also there would be no need for boosters or receiver packs to run the receiver and servo, this was definitely a missed opurtunity here, the doomsayers may have said to much power and that 1s lipo is perfect, but 21.5t 2s would have been close to the 10.5t 1s eurostock class that runs in so many places.
maybe an earlier post was right saying that we don't like change and this is why we have gone the way we have, for better and for worse
Just my 2 cents, hope i haven't offended anyone
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Old 05-15-2014, 04:42 AM   #873
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Well, I don't agree here. I race both 1:12 TR and 1:10 OR. It's not like there's a "huge problem" with either. We have plenty power and runtime. And R.I.P. brushed motors, commutator trueing and NIMH cells!

BUT I do think that for RC cars we are always falling behind as to technology. I also do 3D heli, and there we are pushing/following new technology more.

IMO for 1:12 a 380 can size is much more "right". And voltage - put it up A LOT! Same power, more runtime and most importantly: Things run COOL!

Don't have much heat problems in 1:12, only a bit as to the motor. But it's damn heavy. Less weight equals you could play around more with distribution. Or lower the min. weight and get less tire wear and less parts breakage.

For 1:10, especially 4WD heat is still a problem! We need effective fans and cooling holes, even here in cold Norway. I really wouldn't mind seeing 4-5 cell LiPos allowed!
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Old 05-15-2014, 05:06 AM   #874
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wow i didn't expect a quick response. my comments like i said were just my opinion for better or for worse , also being new to the class and yet to race it competitively, i will bow to other more experienced peoples opinion on this matter, I was more looking at it from a general rc enthusiast view and am just applying what i have learnt in other scales, i probably have a lot to learn in a 1/12th point of view, but i do know for sure where i race at a larger outdoor track that without the added weight of the larger motor out the back im not sure if i could get much traction, also my 1/12th runs a 4.5t motor on 1 s and it does get warmer then say a 10.5t 2s setup would, granted the heat is less of an issue like you have said in comparison to 1/10 AWD car where i have also tried 3s lipo power, i suppose the 1/10 awd pro 10 type car i also run can be pushed very hard and heat will always be an issue, maybe your onto something and i should try one of my 5s lipos in it? or maybe i have now gone completely insane! food for thought.
thanks for sharing your views
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Old 05-15-2014, 05:21 AM   #875
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LOL! It's all good!

Well, I'm not sure I'd go up in voltage without going down on the motor wind. It'll probably become undriveable. Make sure your ESC can take more voltage as well.

Here in Europe it's more and more astro tracks for 1:10 OR = high grip. Since 2008 mid motor 2WDs have been the way to go actually. And now "converted" 4WDs in order to shift the weight even further forward. I was the first in Norway to compete with a mid motor 2WD, with big success Now I'm the first to revert back to rear motor on astro with a loooong FTW Night Fox XL B4

I initially wrote the EFRA (european) LiPo rules and proposed them. Much based on the ROAR rules. Since nobody proposed it the year before, we had to run one more year with NIMH vs. ROAR. Now, the point I'm trying to make is that most federations don't do any development, nor is it their job to do so. I'd wish the manufacturers were more cutting edge - testing and informing the federations like ROAR, EFRA and IFMAR. In this tread there's very good development work done... but was it ever properly documented and presented to any organization?

Myself I'll do some proper testing and demo of fuel injection for RC cars this summer and propose a legal, homologated system for EFRA. I got hold of the old PC-RC system. The technology is at least 20 years old and it's IMO incredible that this has not yet happened Though I know there's some RTR cars coming now with fuel injection and self starter...
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Old 05-15-2014, 05:32 AM   #876
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It is interesting to read this thread in retrospect. As stated the 1/12 car has evolved into a 1 cell missel due to the advancements in batteries, esc's and motors. Many US tracks are actually down motoring to 21.5's and a spec tire to try and bring in more racers. At our track that is working ( our version has a spec motor and battery also). We still have the 17.5 cars and a couple of racers running full out mod.
Our track is a fairly large carpet track (88 x 40) and the difference per lap between a mod 1/12 and a 17.5 is about .75 sec./lap. The 21.5 car is another .5 sec./lap slower. The racing in 21.5 is what it is all about. Driving and the setup (don't scrub speed) because you can't out power someone. Good racers have driven both and they all think that this new class has a lot to offer. We are also seeing a slight move to 17.5 WGT. If we back up 4 years we see that the 13.5 cars are as fast as the 10.5 were then and the 17.5's are equalling the 13.5's. Some racers are much happier with the slightly reduced speed. In reality it is what we had 4 years ago.
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Old 05-15-2014, 05:51 AM   #877
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Talking changes changes

we as human beings are generally afraid of change and the unknown, most racers will resist change which brings us back to the reason the 1/12th class went through bare minimum change with the onset of lipo power. it reminds me of another hobby of mine being offroad dirtbikes where the first mass produced fuel injected dirtbike was made by Suzuki in2008!, talk about slow progress!. change can be scary to us humble human beings. thank god there are people out there like yourself willing to experiment otherwise we would all still be using horses as our primary transport.
enough history lessons lets enjoy the present.
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Old 05-15-2014, 05:57 AM   #878
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old_dude View Post
It is interesting to read this thread in retrospect. As stated the 1/12 car has evolved into a 1 cell missel due to the advancements in batteries, esc's and motors. Many US tracks are actually down motoring to 21.5's and a spec tire to try and bring in more racers. At our track that is working ( our version has a spec motor and battery also). We still have the 17.5 cars and a couple of racers running full out mod.
Our track is a fairly large carpet track (88 x 40) and the difference per lap between a mod 1/12 and a 17.5 is about .75 sec./lap. The 21.5 car is another .5 sec./lap slower. The racing in 21.5 is what it is all about. Driving and the setup (don't scrub speed) because you can't out power someone. Good racers have driven both and they all think that this new class has a lot to offer. We are also seeing a slight move to 17.5 WGT. If we back up 4 years we see that the 13.5 cars are as fast as the 10.5 were then and the 17.5's are equalling the 13.5's. Some racers are much happier with the slightly reduced speed. In reality it is what we had 4 years ago.
All mod here, 4.5 turn mostly - flat out!

We run stock as an unofficial support class though. Not for me...

I just got an idea! How about proposing to ROAR, EFRA and IFMAR to create a "new technology group". Where manufacurers & factory drivers can take part. Test & document new technology vs. the present in order to speed things up? The "carrot" would be that those who are willing to take part may be offered a contract as the "official supplier" of this technology. For instance "EFRA homologated LRP fuel injection system"...

I'll approach EFRA. Who will approach the others?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldenuff View Post
we as human beings are generally afraid of change and the unknown, most racers will resist change which brings us back to the reason the 1/12th class went through bare minimum change with the onset of lipo power. it reminds me of another hobby of mine being offroad dirtbikes where the first mass produced fuel injected dirtbike was made by Suzuki in2008!, talk about slow progress!. change can be scary to us humble human beings. thank god there are people out there like yourself willing to experiment otherwise we would all still be using horses as our primary transport.
enough history lessons lets enjoy the present.
cheers
oldenuff
Thx man!
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Old 05-15-2014, 06:12 AM   #879
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first let me master my car ( i'm not that good ) then i will race it competitively and then i can help you guys change the world. LOL. but seriously if there are people out there not happy about things they should put there hand up and do something about it. Myself i have a long way to go , my first aim is to get rid of this damn whiskey throttle (my wife always said i was a bit too heavy handed!)
the joys of a learning a new car also my first 2wd since my first (tamiya hornett 25 years ago ) are bliss! till then good luck to you all.
cheers
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Old 05-15-2014, 06:17 AM   #880
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old_dude View Post
It is interesting to read this thread in retrospect. As stated the 1/12 car has evolved into a 1 cell missel due to the advancements in batteries, esc's and motors. Many US tracks are actually down motoring to 21.5's and a spec tire to try and bring in more racers. At our track that is working ( our version has a spec motor and battery also). We still have the 17.5 cars and a couple of racers running full out mod.
Our track is a fairly large carpet track (88 x 40) and the difference per lap between a mod 1/12 and a 17.5 is about .75 sec./lap. The 21.5 car is another .5 sec./lap slower. The racing in 21.5 is what it is all about. Driving and the setup (don't scrub speed) because you can't out power someone. Good racers have driven both and they all think that this new class has a lot to offer. We are also seeing a slight move to 17.5 WGT. If we back up 4 years we see that the 13.5 cars are as fast as the 10.5 were then and the 17.5's are equalling the 13.5's. Some racers are much happier with the slightly reduced speed. In reality it is what we had 4 years ago.
Ron, as usual you have good insight. I think the 21.5 class makes a lot of sense and I'm glad to see it do well locally. The formula you described almost completely mitigates the arguement that RC is overly expensive. My last pool cue cost more than a decent 21.5 setup. Cry me a river about the price of RC, Ha! That said I would actually prefer Stock 17.5 go to a 10.5 or a 13.5 at the least provided we stick with the 1 cell lipo. Coming from touring car I find it somewhat boring to run a track full throttle. To me having to modulate the power as to not break traction is an important part of driving that is missing for me in 17.5. Even better would be to go to 2s like everything else seems to be running and adjust the motor wind to suit. The availability of 1S speed controls makes things easier but I still notice a lot of people having trouble getting their head around what equipment they need to have a properly functioning car.
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Old 05-15-2014, 06:34 AM   #881
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldenuff View Post
first let me master my car ( i'm not that good ) then i will race it competitively and then i can help you guys change the world. LOL. but seriously if there are people out there not happy about things they should put there hand up and do something about it. Myself i have a long way to go , my first aim is to get rid of this damn whiskey throttle (my wife always said i was a bit too heavy handed!)
the joys of a learning a new car also my first 2wd since my first (tamiya hornett 25 years ago ) are bliss! till then good luck to you all.
cheers
oldenuff
Get a re-re Hornet and race it! I did well with a bone stock Grasshopper in february this year in the Nordic Vintage Challenge! Went like a missile on the flat sections and jumped like a sack of potatoes! It was a real handful to control! It won the "humor price"

www.ymr.no/nvc.htm



Chaz955i, as I see it availability and info is a problem for all classes. Yes the internet has it all... but it's more and more to drown in A newbie has to spend a lot of time in order to source everything he needs to get started. I'd like to see manufacturers offer "starter packs" with (preferably not RTR, you need to build it to learn) car, radio, electronics, battery, charger, tools and a carrying bag. Some stores of course do this, but it's not the norm.
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Old 05-15-2014, 06:57 AM   #882
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[email protected] you give me the impression that you could race a scooter in a moto gp race and still be competitive, i myself am not quite that talented. while getting a new hornett would be fun it probably wouldnt be a good idea amongst my other cars, can u imagine it Serpent s120, Xray t4 running 235mm lola ,hpi Vorza, Tamiya Hornett?!... maybe your onto something..?
but seriously its good to see this response and that people care about this class, probably the purist of all racing classes and that people have ideas as to how to make it better is a good thing. Really it should be horses for courses and we should be as inclusive and catering to peoples wants and needs as we possibly can be to attract more people to the sport and or class, there are some people out there with good ideas and strong opinions and we are all right to a degree. flexibility is the key here and it seems most clubs are because they are at the coalface trying to attract racers whereas the larger organisations are a bit more inflexible, whats the solution.. ? i dont know i just ask the questions around here. Baby steps for me first in this class and for the rest of you my best advice is be as friendly ,flexible and helpful as possible because if everyone was like this, the world would be a better place.
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Old 05-15-2014, 07:12 AM   #883
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LOL! Good one! I'm not that good, but some guys with much better equipment drove much worse

What's good about Retro Racing is that the key is FUN and SHOW! And you can always blame your inferior car when loosing Dirt cheap re-re cars too!

Being the secretary of the biggest RC car club in my country + a lifetime experience, I know that the vast majority of members don't dare to enter a competition. Free and "unofficial" club races may be a good way to lure them into real racing. Make it more like "just timed practise".

A good social environment is of course the #1 aspect! How? For instance close the track physically at a race at 18 o'clock, BBQ, beer
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Old 05-15-2014, 07:24 AM   #884
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21.5, 1s, open timing.

Or 380 can open mod, 1s.


Blinky is too hard too enforce. All of the cheating nonsense is getting old. If a rule is easy to get around by cheating, it's not a very good rule. Find another solution please and lets us play with our ESC's, if we choose. Often something else, even the track, can be changed to slow racing down. There are many better options than blinky.

For blinky to survive, as is, ROAR is going to have to:
-spec ESC. Something obsolete and cheap without any computer connection ability.
-spec sealed motor. "Oh your rotor or bearings failed, tough $^&*, got to buy a new one to keep that seal." Weld the can closed, maybe make a motor where we can remove the shaft bearings from outside the motor?
-spec sealed battery

That's going too make it more $$$ for all of us. And forced spec electronics classes never last long. Stock racing has not been cheaper than mod for me.

Stock should be a slower racing class, because it sure as heck isn't a more even, cheaper class. Not even close. If that was the purpose of stock classes, that's got to be the biggest fail in RC.

Another thing that's bugging me. None of this is really important in off road 2wd. Mod/open isn't what I'd call "fast". The lack of traction outdoors limits those cars, and even 17.5 blinky is a FAIR drivers race, not a horsepower race. Yet they still moan and cry "cheat" as often as on roaders................. how much of this nonsense is just in our heads? ...and a complete non-issue?

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Old 05-15-2014, 07:27 AM   #885
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fun is what it is all about isnt it?
I recently became a foundation member of a newly setup club and the right attitudes and atmosphere are everything... we should all remember this regardless of class , my problem is when i lose i cant blame my car (xray t4 )?!?
all about learning trying your best and having fun.
by the way [email protected] stop trying to catch my total posts number LOL we are now both apprentices
cheers
oldenuff

P.S zerodefect makes some good points we should be making it simpler and cheaper for stock classes

Last edited by oldenuff; 05-15-2014 at 07:30 AM. Reason: new post
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