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Old 12-21-2008, 11:46 PM   #736
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I vote against. By the time 2010 comes there will be a need to keep things the same, as people will not be able to afford to change all their gear, and buy all the stuff to make this work. It ain't broke...

History teaches us that participation always falls when Rules are changed a lot, and a new development path starts. If you want the future of 12th Scale to be a declining class, then change everything. If you want 12th Scale to have a healthy future add to it. Current Rules are fine, anyone can enter, only needs ROAR approval of LiPo cells for racing.
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Old 12-22-2008, 07:06 AM   #737
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Originally Posted by John St.Amant View Post
... Im gettins sick of trying to run what every one else thinks i should run... truth is there needs to be an entry class that is slower than the race cars . .... no one wants a slow race car . So lets stop regulating the crap out of everything and get back to racing .
if u want an entry level make it gt3 like TCS races. ...
17.5 is fast but too slow to be any real fun for someone thats been racing for 30 years . then again theres aonly a handfull of guys that can hold that candle . ..... 12 scale doesnt need a slower class. I think it is more a pinacle than an entry level . If you never had a car b4 dont get a 12th scale car . get a slash and beat that to death b4 u get a 12th car. Leave the formula's to us. ...!
I agree on nearly every point. It's a free country if you don't like 1/12....don't run it. Beginners will never be 'competitive and will get discouraged in 1/12 or any other class when running against guys who have a glue. There should be a progression class to get to the faster guys and the faster guys need to be prevented from cherry picking that class.

Li-po was/is a success in 1/10 because it is easier and is a drop in fix...with a compatable charger nothing else needed. Find a drop in for 4.8 volts fine, I don't want a Rx pack or booster or the potential for cheating that acompanies them.

Anyone running competitively knew/knows what 1/12 is about....deal with it or run another class. As for slowing the cars down, no one really wants that or else the 21.5 would be a lot more popular than lipo oval and VTA. 17.5 is as slow as I want to go.

I took a few years off and have spent the last 3 years catching up, and I'm as proud of the progress I've made through hard work and patience as I am of each win. This is racing and trust me, let a pro drive your gear and improve on your best by 2 or 3 tenths and do it consistently then your stop griping about who has the best equipment. They may have better bateries and motor but most people could not utilize it any better than what they have....

Long live 1/12 4-cell
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Old 12-22-2008, 11:30 AM   #738
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Originally Posted by SlowerOne View Post
I vote against. By the time 2010 comes there will be a need to keep things the same, as people will not be able to afford to change all their gear, and buy all the stuff to make this work. It ain't broke...

History teaches us that participation always falls when Rules are changed a lot, and a new development path starts. If you want the future of 12th Scale to be a declining class, then change everything. If you want 12th Scale to have a healthy future add to it. Current Rules are fine, anyone can enter, only needs ROAR approval of LiPo cells for racing.
I don't see how the rules are being changed alot with what I proposed? It is just the removal of one Nimh cell and weight changed to reflect that. Now with the removal of one nimh cell, lipos can be run in the mix without the need for mixed motor classes and experiements needed to get the same speeds by using two motors.

So you have to solder only 3 nimh cells together than 4. Now you can tray two packs on your novak smart tray instead of just one 4-cell pack. Now you can save $10 a pack! That can add up after a year. I thought that would be a good favor to everyone that runs NiMH b making it easier and cheaper.
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Old 12-22-2008, 03:01 PM   #739
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Now I have to completely re-design my car (and every other car come to that) to balance up three cells. That'll be "no thanks", thanks...
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Old 12-22-2008, 03:06 PM   #740
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What about 1 cell lipo and 1 cell nimh in series, that'd be 4.9v right?

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Old 12-22-2008, 03:13 PM   #741
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Originally Posted by miller tyme View Post
Li-po was/is a success in 1/10 because it is easier and is a drop in fix...with a compatable charger nothing else needed. Find a drop in for 4.8 volts fine, I don't want a Rx pack or booster or the potential for cheating that acompanies them.

Anyone running competitively knew/knows what 1/12 is about....deal with it or run another class. As for slowing the cars down, no one really wants that or else the 21.5 would be a lot more popular than lipo oval and VTA. 17.5 is as slow as I want to go.

Just to clear up the voltage booster thing. A booster only boosts the voltage to the receiver NOT THE MOTOR. What's to cheat? It has NOTHING to do with the speed of the motor as it gets what the battery see's and nothing more.

I hear the whole 17.5 is as slow as I want it all the time. If the classes get slowed down why not run a faster class? It's not that hard.

"deal with it or run another class" are you kidding me? That's just what 12th needs more people running other classes. Way to grow 12th for the future by telling people not to run it.

If we leave the weight close to what it is now for the time being you don't have to "redesign" the cars. Just add some weight where you need it. The cars would probably be balanced better than what we have now.
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Old 12-22-2008, 06:09 PM   #742
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Now I have to completely re-design my car (and every other car come to that) to balance up three cells. That'll be "no thanks", thanks...
I guess some people are a little short of imagination and corner speed.

For T-plat cars just make your pack a with a jumper wire so that you have 2cells on one side and 1 cell on the other 00~0. Now you can put your ESC, RX or RX battery in the empty cell slot . For the linked just make side-by-side pack 000. For linked cars the ESC may neeed to be stood up like many oval racers do or just put the RX and RX battery in that spot. The RX battery could also be placed in that spot. So with the RX, RX battery and ESC on one side, the missing weight of one 70g cell can easily be balanced out for both linked and t-plate cars. ESC 25~35g, RX 7~15g, RX battery or Voltage booster 7~30g.

Then in a year or two I am sure there will be more linked cars with combination centralized layouts for a 3-cell NiMh pack and also 3.7V LiPO. T-plate cars will just be left unchanged.
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Old 12-22-2008, 07:17 PM   #743
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[QUOTE=Fred_B;5198119]Just to clear up the voltage booster thing. A booster only boosts the voltage to the receiver NOT THE MOTOR. What's to cheat? It has NOTHING to do with the speed of the motor as it gets what the battery see's and nothing more.

You start 'booster' voltage I'm sure someone will try booster it back to the ESC. Just as someone has admited to doing with Rx pack backfeeding with "no problems"

I hear the whole 17.5 is as slow as I want it all the time. If the classes get slowed down why not run a faster class? It's not that hard.

I do run faster classes as well, ussually run 2 classes at most events.

"deal with it or run another class" are you kidding me? That's just what 12th needs more people running other classes. Way to grow 12th for the future by telling people not to run it.

Also said there are other classes perhaps more suitable, Or perhaps the way to grow 1/12 is to kill the old off first!

QUOTE]
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Old 12-22-2008, 07:57 PM   #744
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So when I used to run a receiver pack in mod to speed up the servo I was cheating? Better yet all the big names that did it were cheating? Some of us were running 6 cell receiver packs at the end of the brushed era to get the servo's faster. Were we cheating? All that big power feeding back through 22ga wire must have been such a big deal. Give me a break. And for the boosters, it would take a booster the size of a speed control or bigger just to get to the point where we start to send much power to the motor. Give me a break. I won't even try to explain how a FET works in the speedo circuit but you might want to do a little research...

And for the slower class. What slower class? Seriously. This is a 12th thread so what 12th class is there that's slower than 17.5? Are you suggesting that they run Mabuchi's? Do we need 4 classes of 12th? Give me a break. You can still run 2 "fast" classes at big races if we have 3 so it's not like you can't race a "fast" class.
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Old 12-22-2008, 10:19 PM   #745
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Some times I can't believe what ppl put on here fred. Amazing isnt it ?
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Old 12-22-2008, 10:49 PM   #746
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This whole problem could be solved by making 1/12th scale spec classes using 7.4 volt lipo and BL motors with roll out and motor timing limits to control speed.

Once those rules are established it's up to the driver to win the race on driving and car setup skill.
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Old 12-22-2008, 11:34 PM   #747
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Originally Posted by trailranger View Post
I guess some people are a little short of imagination and corner speed.

For T-plat cars just make your pack a with a jumper wire so that you have 2cells on one side and 1 cell on the other 00~0. Now you can put your ESC, RX or RX battery in the empty cell slot . For the linked just make side-by-side pack 000. For linked cars the ESC may neeed to be stood up like many oval racers do or just put the RX and RX battery in that spot. The RX battery could also be placed in that spot. So with the RX, RX battery and ESC on one side, the missing weight of one 70g cell can easily be balanced out for both linked and t-plate cars. ESC 25~35g, RX 7~15g, RX battery or Voltage booster 7~30g.

Then in a year or two I am sure there will be more linked cars with combination centralized layouts for a 3-cell NiMh pack and also 3.7V LiPO. T-plate cars will just be left unchanged.
I guess some people are a little short of facts, or simply don't race this class. My ESC - 22g, my receiver - 7g, available voltage booster - 12g. Total 41g. One cell - 68g. And that's before we start talking about the foot print of the cell against the footprint of the speedo. As John posted above - "sometimes I can't believe what people put on here..."

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This whole problem could be solved by making 1/12th scale spec classes using 7.4 volt lipo and BL motors with roll out and motor timing limits to control speed.

Once those rules are established it's up to the driver to win the race on driving and car setup skill.
I have watched every control class since 1980 - about six of them by my count in electric alone - and none of them lasted more than a year. Despite what is said, people don't race Spec classes, especially those that control so much. Also, from a safety angle in Europe, 7.4v is a complete non-starter in Pan Car classes.
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Old 12-23-2008, 03:53 AM   #748
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This whole problem could be solved by making 1/12th scale spec classes using 7.4 volt lipo and BL motors with roll out and motor timing limits to control speed.

Once those rules are established it's up to the driver to win the race on driving and car setup skill.

And how exactly would you tech those? Even if the BL motor had a fixed endbell with the new generation of speed controllers you can set timing in those and no one would know. And gearing/tire diameter also has to be checked for every car. Teching each car would take longer than the race.
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Old 12-23-2008, 04:23 AM   #749
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This whole problem could be solved by making 1/12th scale spec classes using 7.4 volt lipo and BL motors with roll out and motor timing limits to control speed.

Once those rules are established it's up to the driver to win the race on driving and car setup skill.
Very improbable as the tire diameters change a lot over a day's worth of racing. Much too much work to tech this.
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Old 12-23-2008, 05:44 AM   #750
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So when I used to run a receiver pack in mod to speed up the servo I was cheating? ... it would take a booster the size of a speed control or bigger just to get to the point where we start to send much power to the motor. Give me a break. I won't even try to explain how a FET works in the speedo circuit but you might want to do a little research...

And for the slower class. What slower class? Seriously. This is a 12th thread so what 12th class is there that's slower than 17.5? Are you suggesting that they run Mabuchi's? Do we need 4 classes of 12th? Give me a break. You can still run 2 "fast" classes at big races if we have 3 so it's not like you can't race a "fast" class.
Fred, You did say in another thread that back in the day guys would "backfeed" to the speedo. No using a Rx pack is not cheating but there have been a few post on here where guys have reported noticeably higher RPMS when running a Rx pack, something is odd.
I know how a Field Effect Transistor works, even the old Metal Oxide Silicon ones, they are mearly a gate and once threshold voltage is reached they control the amount of juice allowed to flow, I know this is a slightly abridged description I don't feel like digging out my design text. Bottom line is depending on circuit board design if the RX voltage is not blocked from backfeed it can add to the supply voltage and while may not be huge amounts of available current it all adds up. Heck I remember when Speedos tried to claim they could use back EMF from the motor to "recharge" the battery

We've bantered back and forth a few times...not harm no fowl...I think open discussion is good, I would like to see something replace NiMH....hell I'd almost rather go back to NiCd {jk} I just don't want to see the first attemp be rule when I feel technology and other manufactures in another year or 2 may hold another option.
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