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Old 10-17-2008, 06:23 AM   #31
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ITíS FAST! And it can go much faster, believe me!
Well, both set up are capable of running slow, or slower than, like stock pace. And both set up are capable of fast pace also, itís all depend on motor and gear selection. But a 2cell set up like mine can easily going faster than fast. For now, I donít want to scare you how fast can this thing go. I just want you to know, from my testing, this set up can go fast with ease when driving, another word, the car is easily under control even when driving fast. It can also go much faster if you want it to. That we can talk about much later on.


ITíS SIMPLER.
Itís like plug and play. You hook up your electronic like you would with any other electric chassis. Plug you steering servo and esc into your receiver, and thatís it. But not so with single cell set up. With single cell you have to have a receiver pack to begin with, and during the day you may need to charge them more then once or twice.
From what I heard, there is no punch whatsoever with 13.5T, Itís almost full throttle all the way. Why so? May it be that the battery does not provide enough voltage? With a hotter motor, the voltage will drop even more under heavy acceleration. Another electronic device may be needed to boost up the voltage. Thatís been said/mentioned in the ďSMC 5700mAh 25C Single Cell LipoĒ thread. If they ever make such a, ďvoltage boosterĒ or Ēstep Ėup circuitĒ, then we may have to deal with another problem this new product brings. Imagine Novak makes one that convert 3.7V to 4.8V. Two month later, other company comes out with one that claim convert the voltage to claimed 4.8V but hide their actual convert to 5.2V, and lead or mislead, however you want to define, consumer to think they have a better product and make its user go faster. Or three month later, Teken comes out with one that indeed convert 3.7V to 4.8V but claims lower internal resistant. Do you or do you not put the Novak made on the e-Bay and buy the Tekin made? And what will stop Lrp to make another one that claims an even lower internal resistant than Tekinís 5 month later? Do we really need to go down this road?


ITíS CHEAPER!
A single cell made by SMC is around $65.00, the battery that I use is around $25.00, Of course, once if itís determined and become race legal it then may be 15~20 dollars more to have them made hard case. But in the end, itís still going to be more likely cheaper than the SMC single cell. The motor is cheaper. The 540size motor is around $75 and up. The motors that I have tried most are all around $15.00~$18.00. The Momba motor for 1/18 car is around $50.00. The esc is cheaper. Better esc that majority racers use is more than likely to be $150.00 and up. The esc that I use for this project is $50.00. Itís cheaper to begin with.
Fast or faster is going to be a bad thing. 12th with 17.5 is already close to where mod was about 15 years ago. Yes, that's why we have so many ultra compeditive racers in our stock classes. Add compeditive racers, new racers, and fast cars and the new racers will quit.

What's more simple than using the exact electronics that I already have and install a receiver pack and a single cell LiPo? With single cell, I can switch back and forth at the track without even removing the motor from the car.

Cheaper? Give me a break here...

1) We all have the existing electronics that are in our cars. So, the real math here is $65 (or less) for the pack and $10 for a receiver pack. That's a whole $75 to run single cell.

2) Just the speedo and motor price you listed above is about the same as a single cell set-up. Then add the battery to that. Plus, it's not going to work for mod and may not work for asphault.
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Old 10-17-2008, 06:42 AM   #32
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This is my thought. I already have the motors and a Tekin RS speedo. A battery and receiver pack is all I need to go single cell lipo. I think that's where a lot of people are right now.

Just because single cell lipo is easier for me to get into this year, if enough people go the smaller motor 2 cell lipo route, and it's superior and catching on, I'd likely make the switch to that. I'm not totally for or against either.
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Old 10-17-2008, 07:01 AM   #33
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Pro's for 2 cell with 380 motors:

1) Lighter
2) No receiver pack or voltage booster

Cons for 2 cell with 380's:

1) No existing motor rules.
2) No existing motor mounts for 380 motors.
3) May be too fast for mod.
4) MOD batteries with the capacity needed would be very expensive and dumping is not good for LiPo.
5) Need new speedo and motor.
6) Can't use the same motor I used in sedan last summer in 12th.

Pro's for single cell and existing motors:

1) Lighter
2) Uses existing speed control and motors that we all have.
3) Motors and speedo's can be used in other classes.
4) Uses existing motor rules.
5) Won't be too fast for mod (I've run it).
6) Can't dump a 5000 mAh pack in mod with a 3.5 motor
7) Stock is slower for the new racers and many "fast" guys would move up to a faster class to where they belong.

Cons for single cell and existing motors:

1) Not the same speed as 4 cell with the same motor.
2) You have to use a receiver pack or a voltage booster.
3) Because the cars are a different speed than 4 cell you may have to split the classes.
4) Huge pinions. Thanks to the oval guys we do have them but we'd have to buy more and bigger pinions.

So, there's a breakdown of why I think single cell is the way to go. I really kinda like the 3 cell NiMh idea that was mentioned earlier. And for all of the guys that are freaked out about having to run a receiver pack, SMC has already been talking to Novak about a voltage booster and what it would take.

When I added up the parts to make a 1 amp buck boost for 3v to 5v is was about $15 so the cost would probably be around $30 for the booster retail.
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Old 10-17-2008, 07:07 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred_B View Post
Pro's for 2 cell with 380 motors:

1) Lighter
2) No receiver pack or voltage booster

Cons for 2 cell with 380's:

1) No existing motor rules.
2) No existing motor mounts for 380 motors.
3) May be too fast for mod.
4) MOD batteries with the capacity needed would be very expensive and dumping is not good for LiPo.
5) Need new speedo and motor.
6) Can't use the same motor I used in sedan last summer in 12th.

Pro's for single cell and existing motors:

1) Lighter
2) Uses existing speed control and motors that we all have.
3) Motors and speedo's can be used in other classes.
4) Uses existing motor rules.
5) Won't be too fast for mod (I've run it).
6) Can't dump a 5000 mAh pack in mod with a 3.5 motor
7) Stock is slower for the new racers and many "fast" guys would move up to a faster class to where they belong.

Cons for single cell and existing motors:

1) Not the same speed as 4 cell with the same motor.
2) You have to use a receiver pack or a voltage booster.
3) Because the cars are a different speed than 4 cell you may have to split the classes.
4) Huge pinions. Thanks to the oval guys we do have them but we'd have to buy more and bigger pinions.

So, there's a breakdown of why I think single cell is the way to go. I really kinda like the 3 cell NiMh idea that was mentioned earlier. And for all of the guys that are freaked out about having to run a receiver pack, SMC has already been talking to Novak about a voltage booster and what it would take.

When I added up the parts to make a 1 amp buck boost for 3v to 5v is was about $15 so the cost would probably be around $30 for the booster retail.
+1

Thanks for laying it all out. You're a better man for palying advocate to both sides
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Old 10-17-2008, 08:37 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred_B View Post
Pro's for 2 cell with 380 motors:

1) Lighter
2) No receiver pack or voltage booster

Cons for 2 cell with 380's:

1) No existing motor rules.
2) No existing motor mounts for 380 motors.
3) May be too fast for mod.
4) MOD batteries with the capacity needed would be very expensive and dumping is not good for LiPo.
5) Need new speedo and motor.
6) Can't use the same motor I used in sedan last summer in 12th.

Pro's for single cell and existing motors:

1) Lighter
2) Uses existing speed control and motors that we all have.
3) Motors and speedo's can be used in other classes.
4) Uses existing motor rules.
5) Won't be too fast for mod (I've run it).
6) Can't dump a 5000 mAh pack in mod with a 3.5 motor
7) Stock is slower for the new racers and many "fast" guys would move up to a faster class to where they belong.

Cons for single cell and existing motors:

1) Not the same speed as 4 cell with the same motor.
2) You have to use a receiver pack or a voltage booster.
3) Because the cars are a different speed than 4 cell you may have to split the classes.
4) Huge pinions. Thanks to the oval guys we do have them but we'd have to buy more and bigger pinions.
Not disagreeing Fred, merely playing a bit o' devil's advocate. It seems that many of your "arguments" for one vs. the other really aren't differences, and that some of the differences have been "multiplied" (identified more than once). You also need to acknowledge that what you have on YOUR equipment shelf may be more (or less) than what others have on their shelf.

The fact that NEITHER option is the "same speed" with the same motor rules really encompasses arguments 1) and 2) of 2-cell con and 1) and 3) of the 1-cell con. What you've effectively done is restated the same "con" in four different ways. I would also argue that argument 4) in the "pro" 1s is directly contradictory to argument 1 in the 1s "con"...which motor constitutes "stock" and what constitutes "superstock" or "mod" would definitely need to be redefined.


Arguments 5) and 6) under 2-cell con are the same argument. I would also argue that 5) is not the case for everybody. In fact I would argue that anybody who's got a brushless esc and a 21.5 from VTA or some such probably has a similar speed combo on 2s LiPo as a 4-cell / 17.5 combo.

The reason I didn't address the 2s Lipo/21.5 in my earlier discussion is that my own belief is that we make all the changes at once. There is absolutely no reason beyond convenience that we're married to the 540 size motor...we just don't need to be toting that boat anchor around in our cars and sizing components to accomodate it. What we're doing by mandating that ALL cars use the same size motors is like requiring F-1 cars to run supercharged Keith Black Hemis so John Force isn't inconvenienced if Ashley decides she'd like to try Grand Prix racing. Different classes have differing equipment ideals.

Also on batteries, your con in the 2s Lipo is that batteries needed for Mod would be expensive, etc, yet magically there are inexpensive 5000mah single cell options to support argument 6) in your "pro" 1s LiPo. Dumping with 2s LiPo is a non-issue for roughly the same investment and complexity as your voltage booster as well ala the Novak Smart Stop or similar. Or, in the case of my Tekin Mini-Rage it has built in LiPo protection.

Also regarding batteries is the capacity really a problem for the 2s LiPo? I frame this as a question because I really don't know. What I DO know is that my $30 1550mah 2s LiPo batteries from MaxAmps run my 8.0kv equipped Slider for 8 minutes and change. I don't think the weights are that much different between the two, though the Slider is not direct drive. Once upon a time racing 1/12 even in STOCK was a balancing act between outright speed and battery life. Maybe it would be again, maybe not. The fact we've got huge gears in our boxes now doesn't mean they are what we have to use.

I think it will be very interesting over the next year or two to see what people are able to find. What it's going to take is a few people willing to invest time and some money to try these different combinations out. Our biggest problem here is the VERY limited amount of track time available to us as we don't have a permanent facility. I'm also happy to see folks willing to look at different options and give them a try. THAT is how we'll find the best solution.
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Old 10-17-2008, 08:58 AM   #36
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Damn Roland... that is intense. I don't write that much for an English class essay. I will comment back when I am done reading.
...........
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Old 10-17-2008, 09:10 AM   #37
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Hi Roland

i like your style, thinking outside of the box, the only problem is i don't think it will catch on as to run this setup will require new batteries, charger, motor, speedo, chassis, and tyres to get it working properly. Now thats alot of money for alot of people to spend.

My view of the future of 12th scale is a little less drastic, and involves A123 batteries running at 6v. With the current crop of mod motors this would be silly, but by using 10.5 as a mod and 13.5 this would help to keep the speeds downs and would also help in keeping the weight over the rear wheels.

just my 2 pence
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Old 10-17-2008, 10:41 AM   #38
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Sounds interesting, I've been playing with a 2s2p A-123 (18650) in my L4 but I haven't had a chance to really run it to see what I get for run time and power. I did lose 50 grams going from 4 NIMH 3300mah to 2s2p a-123, I run only A-123's in all my electric toys in the 1100mah and 2300mah flavor and I love them........BB
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Old 10-17-2008, 12:21 PM   #39
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Whats wrong with 2cell with a 17.5 or 13.5? That sounds like fun to me!
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Old 10-17-2008, 12:32 PM   #40
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Whats wrong with 2cell with a 17.5 or 13.5? That sounds like fun to me!
I wouldn't want to have two spare cars with me for backup.
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Old 10-17-2008, 12:44 PM   #41
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To trailranger, Fred B:
By reading your posts, here and at the other threads, I understand you, trailranger, Fred B, along with others, are for single cell set up, and you're against 2-cell lipo set up. Would you be open mind enough to reconsider your position if I can point out where you are wrong? Is it possible that you could be wrong for once, right?

Your statements/arguments are wrong because your information was wrong, or you read my post wrong, to begin with. You've mistaken Momba motor for Mongoose 380 size motor.

We can tell the different motor by saying it's a 380 size, 540, 550...etc.
We can also describe them by their actual dimension, like 2030 meaning the motor is 20mm in diameter and 30 mm in length. A MOMBA motor is a 2030
motor. I don't have Mongoose motor, but I have two 380 motors I used to use them in my micro RS4, one is 2430 and the other is 2632. It looks to me a Mongoose is around 2635. These are all fall into 380size category.

Click this:
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...hless_Inrunner
It's a 2435 motor, look at the maximum amp load, 25A.

Look at this:
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...hless_Inrunner
It's a 2445 motor, 10 mm longer, and its maximum load is 34A

I guess the Mongoose fall in-between those two motor.

Check this motor out:
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...ess_Motor_(FIN)

This is a 4200kv on my Bloody Knife. Its maximum load is only 10A.
The future of 1/12 scale-100_0221.jpg
The future of 1/12 scale-100_0218.jpg

This motor and the 5400kv Momba that I have on my Diggity are capable of the same pace of Donny's IIC A-main Stock winning set up. In fact, my Diggity, geared at 16 in pinion and 88 in spur with a 1.72" tires, was only one
second behind Donny at the end of the qualifier.

So I want to ask all of you, Trairanger, Fred B, andrewdoherty and Scottrik to give a try with the smaller motor and then tell me what you think!

FYI, I have more motors coming my way, for those who want to go even slow, two of them are.

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...idProduct=4484

It's a 3000 kv motor with a maximum amp. load of 7A

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...idProduct=6281
God knows how slow we’re going to go with this motor.
We are going to race and see who will be the fastest of the slow!

Last edited by Roland S; 10-17-2008 at 03:46 PM.
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Old 10-17-2008, 12:50 PM   #42
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I will totally disagree with going the 2S lipo route. WHY WHY WHY?
Thank you for asking WHY 3 times.
And I've 3 answers for you. It's:

1) Itís fast.
2) Itís simpler.
3) Itís cheaper!


Did you read my post at all?
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Old 10-17-2008, 12:57 PM   #43
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Both sides make a lot of sense. It's not going to be easy, hopefully, the masses will decide after running both setups.

The little motors are cute.
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Old 10-17-2008, 12:58 PM   #44
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2S lipo/380 sized motors is definately a neat way to go for 1/12th. The only real problem I see is the lack of standards for 380 motors. We can easily define a new 'stock' 1/12th class as using a 1S lipo and 13.5 motor. ROAR has already defined what qualifies as a legal 13.5 motor. There aren't any, AFAIK, ROAR rules defining how a 380 motor has to perform for a certain class. So, how do you set up a 'stock' 1/12th class with 380 motors, unless you say everyone has to use the same motor. You'd have to outlaw Mamba motors, as they all look the same. And I'm not sure if Novak has different, unchangeable markings on their 380 motors.
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Old 10-17-2008, 12:59 PM   #45
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can you show us how you mount the smaller motors?

thankx
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