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Old 11-07-2008, 04:47 PM   #316
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'If the discussion doesn't interest you then move on', yeah, cheers for that 'reenmachine'. I have raced 12th's for over 20 years so obviously have a little interest in the class and where it may end up in the future. I think it's great that people want to try new things but if you read what people are actually putting on here, it does sound like some (not all) want to change the class to fit in with what equipment they run now. The main problem is batteries and because of the differance in voltage of certain types of batteries. If you want to run LiPo, I could n't care less mate, but one type is too high and the other is too low, voltage wise. Then you have to change what motor you are running to suit the high/low voltage batteries that some of the people on here want to use. More hassle and expense. If you want to keep costs down and speeds down, buy some of the outdated cells (there are tens of thousands of GP3300's left) and run either a Mabuchi 540 or 27t stock motors. How's about that for an idea or does that not fit in with the LiPo only people on here?
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Old 11-07-2008, 05:02 PM   #317
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'If the discussion doesn't interest you then move on', yeah, cheers for that 'reenmachine'. I have raced 12th's for over 20 years so obviously have a little interest in the class and where it may end up in the future. I think it's great that people want to try new things but if you read what people are actually putting on here, it does sound like some (not all) want to change the class to fit in with what equipment they run now. The main problem is batteries and because of the differance in voltage of certain types of batteries. If you want to run LiPo, I could n't care less mate, but one type is too high and the other is too low, voltage wise. Then you have to change what motor you are running to suit the high/low voltage batteries that some of the people on here want to use. More hassle and expense. If you want to keep costs down and speeds down, buy some of the outdated cells (there are tens of thousands of GP3300's left) and run either a Mabuchi 540 or 27t stock motors. How's about that for an idea or does that not fit in with the LiPo only people on here?
You're missing the point again, and I don't know how else to explain it. First, you've got to be able to filter the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. Of course, during any constructive discussion there are always going to be those who offer up opinions or "solutions" which aren't well thought-through.

Second, once again, this is a thread where some guys interested in lipo for 1/12 wanted to discuss some ideas. There's no big conspiracy theory brewing to force you to change. There's no big push to make ROAR or anyone apply a new standard right away.

It's as simple as this: at some point in time, some guys think that there may be a need to change to lipo (or a different battery technology) for whatever reason. There are some guys here who are curious about what this change would mean, so they're mucking about with lipos in their 1/12 scale cars, and sharing their findings. End of story.

I don't see why this discussion bothers you so much.
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Old 11-08-2008, 12:14 AM   #318
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Mate, I totally get the point, and if people want to try things out for themselves, ideal. No problem with that. I just think that everything is already available to everybody to go racing now, at a cheap cost compared to other classes of RC racing. If you want to try other types of electronics in your own 12th car, you go for it mate but I am happy with what I have at the moment, apart from all my brushed modified motors which are now out of date compared to the brushless guys that is! Also, any chance of people putting some pics of their setups on here to gauge how chassis design could change to fit the new equipment ideas? I run my own designed and built 12th car and want to see how other cells/motors/etc all fit in. Cheers.
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Old 11-08-2008, 03:21 AM   #319
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Mate, I totally get the point, and if people want to try things out for themselves, ideal. No problem with that. I just think that everything is already available to everybody to go racing now, at a cheap cost compared to other classes of RC racing. If you want to try other types of electronics in your own 12th car, you go for it mate but I am happy with what I have at the moment, apart from all my brushed modified motors which are now out of date compared to the brushless guys that is! Also, any chance of people putting some pics of their setups on here to gauge how chassis design could change to fit the new equipment ideas? I run my own designed and built 12th car and want to see how other cells/motors/etc all fit in. Cheers.
Want to see pics? Somebody posted a link with different lipo-12th scalers... (the last 2 cars have A123cells)









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Old 11-08-2008, 04:16 AM   #320
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Want to see pics? Somebody posted a link with different lipo-12th scalers... (the last 2 cars have A123cells)









Not the most elegant solutions, how do they perform in comparison to standard NIMH setups? Please supply quantifiable evidence to give a comparision so we can see the difference.

I think the problem so far with this thread is no one except Roland has given any evidence for these cars working. To persuade someone like Wingman2 who is an exceptional driver and is capable of beating most people out there(on a good day when i'm not out to get him) we need to see more than just pictures, how about posting setups for these cars and lap times etc so we can compare these to your standard NIMH setups/times. From this we can make an informed decision as to there performances.

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Old 11-08-2008, 09:39 AM   #321
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There were 2 A123 cars running in 12th at our track last week. I didn't notice any clear advantage either way.

Nearly everyone ended up around where we expected. We had the 1/12 novice mixed with world class team drivers and that produced a much wider spread than the batteries (i.e. I was under geared and off the back).
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Old 11-08-2008, 10:42 AM   #322
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Here are a few pictures of my car, I posted a picture in the beginning of this thread but I have changed to 3p since then plus I added a " on the scale" picture..
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The future of 1/12 scale-1.jpg  
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Old 11-08-2008, 10:46 AM   #323
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And a few others.......BB
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The future of 1/12 scale-2.jpg   The future of 1/12 scale-3.jpg   The future of 1/12 scale-4.jpg  
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Old 11-08-2008, 04:12 PM   #324
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Cheers Steve, very nice of you to say so! That first pic is probably not the best to go by, not the best install I have ever seen!! The others look quite good though. When I get back Steve, if you have tried any of the other types of cells out there, we'll get together and do some testing of our own mate. Cheers!
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Old 11-08-2008, 06:36 PM   #325
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Well guys, after reading all of this, I am going to trow my 2 cents in.
When i first started running 12th scale, we ran 6 cell nicds and the way technology was going back then(early 1990's) even with 27turn motors, they got way to fast. So we decided to drop to 4 cell, as we run today, and with some experimenting and some gear changes, we became just as fast and got a bonus with an easier car to drive.
So, I think it might take some time and a bit of set up work, but I believe a single cell lipo, even at only 3.7 volts, will be just as fast as 4 cell nimh. The thing I am seeing is that people are reluctant to change, especially after we have been using the same set up for so long.
I already run a receiver pack in 12th modified so that will not be a problem.
So, what i am going to do is keep my eyes and ears open and when single cell lipo becomes available, I will take a shot at it.
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Old 11-08-2008, 08:18 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by OvalDude99 View Post
Well guys, after reading all of this, I am going to trow my 2 cents in.
When i first started running 12th scale, we ran 6 cell nicds and the way technology was going back then(early 1990's) even with 27turn motors, they got way to fast. So we decided to drop to 4 cell, as we run today, and with some experimenting and some gear changes, we became just as fast and got a bonus with an easier car to drive.
So, I think it might take some time and a bit of set up work, but I believe a single cell lipo, even at only 3.7 volts, will be just as fast as 4 cell nimh. The thing I am seeing is that people are reluctant to change, especially after we have been using the same set up for so long.
I already run a receiver pack in 12th modified so that will not be a problem.
So, what i am going to do is keep my eyes and ears open and when single cell lipo becomes available, I will take a shot at it.
That's a good point -- what was the transition like when the switch was made from 6 to 4 cells? Was there a lot of argument? Surely there were naysayers, and new chassis had to be developed and everything (where have I heard that before...lol) Of course, there wasn't yet the "blessing" of the Internet such as it is today for discussion...
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Old 11-08-2008, 10:49 PM   #327
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As much as I hate to admit it, I was one of the racers that said it would never work. That is until I saw them run and tried it myself. The on road guys took to it like fish to water, but some of us 10th scale oval guys were a little slow to jump in.(I was racing both at the time) It took the track owner to make it a rule before we all finally switched.
Chassis were not a problem. We ran saddle packs in 12th scale and stick packs with the 10th scale. You just had a couple empty battery slots. That was before I believe CRC came out with there car with the sideways pack at the rear of the chassis.
It sure made things a lot easier to drive, not that uncontrollable punch at the start.

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Old 11-09-2008, 04:21 AM   #328
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As much as I hate to admit it, I was one of the racers that said it would never work. That is until I saw them run and tried it myself. The on road guys took to it like fish to water, but some of us 10th scale oval guys were a little slow to jump in.(I was racing both at the time) It took the track owner to make it a rule before we all finally switched.
Chassis were not a problem. We ran saddle packs in 12th scale and stick packs with the 10th scale. You just had a couple empty battery slots. That was before I believe CRC came out with there car with the sideways pack at the rear of the chassis.
It sure made things a lot easier to drive, not that uncontrollable punch at the start.
...and the Igarashi motors were such low tech - even stock Mabuchi 540s were better tech - the new "Yokomo" style motors made a whole new world.

Then there were 2400NiCd and SCRs - lots of change. I still have a 6 cell delta car somewhere and then the "special" cell chassis plate - that didn't really work better.

MRP molded chassis, hand wound resistor trays, the "Controversy" of hung vs chassis supported batteries.

My point - there was almost constant change. My 20year old (or more??) Delta car would still be competitive if you could get "proper" T-plates and just update the shocks. But too much work to keep it there. its all to make a more consistent car and evolve with the technology

the NEW serpent 1/12 would be immediately understandable to a racer from the late 70s. It you showed them a touring car - their brain would fall out.
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Old 11-09-2008, 06:44 AM   #329
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Nice posts; so true. Going 4-cell was thought to be the end of the World for 12th, but has proved to be the beginning of the New World. When I started, there were 1.2mAh cells with 35T Mabuchi motors and 3-step resistor speed controllers. We ran on wood floors with tyres coated in silicone sealant, and struggled to put six minutes under a set of cells. If you had told me that, today, I would be running four times the capacity, with 'n' times the grip and five times the power for a 30% longer race, I'd have had you committed to the asylum!!!

At any time in those 30+ years, we have said so many times that what is coming wouldn't work. We were wrong. The problem we have now is that LiPo has become a religion. Like all religions, it scrabbles around for scraps of data to support its view. Until the LiPo-loopy can behave like scientists by setting up proper experiments within defined limits (Rules) nothing is going to change much. That's what we did for the last 30+ years - made some Rules to guide our experiments and proved ourselves right or wrong. Scientists, as opposed to religious followers, delight in proving things wrong; it is what separates science from religion. (I use the words science and religion to describe the two approaches, not to infer anything about anyone and their beliefs or culture - please, no flaming. As an example, if a committed atheist unequivocally heard God speak, do you think they would change their mind? When Gallileo proved the Earth revolved round the Sun, it was accepted immediately by scientists, and the World).

If you make some limits to your experiments and then report results, it will come as no surprise if people look up, notice it, and try it themselves. But whilst the objective is seen purely as getting LiPo into 12th, expect the scientists to object! The lessons of history are that all the change in 12th was supported by obvious results from controlled experiments made under sets of Rules. Try doing that again, and this thread might take quite a different tone...
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Old 11-09-2008, 03:43 PM   #330
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My 2 cents on the 12th scale and WGT battery issue...

I wouldnt mind running NIMH cells forever personally cuz Im old-school...

But I think the best overall solution would be a somewhat standardized 7.4v hardcase lipo made in brick and saddle configurations that would fit all the current cars....and we run them with high turn brushless motors...

The spec classes might be something like 21.5 or 17.5.....and mod is mod...we would probably run 7.5-10.5 turn motors if I had to guess...


I guess we will see what happens...
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