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Old 10-30-2008, 11:58 AM   #226
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Thanks Steve.

I'm at work now, soon I'll leave for work outside the office, and than I'll go racing.
Tomorrow, work during the day and race again after work.
I know I know, I'm a lucky bustard.

I'll get back to you, with pictures.
BTY, what car you have?
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Old 10-30-2008, 03:30 PM   #227
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Hi Roland


you are a lucky $%^&£$%^, i can only race once a week, but i get to race twice a month on a full national size track. Currently racing a GenX with great success, running nosram 5.5t brushless.

look forward to your post

Cheers
Steve
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Old 10-30-2008, 09:45 PM   #228
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Here is something to ponder

SMC battery pack 92 x 46 x 22mm

One Side of a Saddle Pack 70 x 47 x 30

Roughly the same volume.. And the volume would be spot on if the SMC pack would be sized to 47mm wide and 22.8mm tall.

So for the aspect of T-Bar cars and Linked Cars. Maybe Two Standards for packs of near equal volume could emerge in the future so that 1:12 would be minimally affected by the addition of LiPO. The inclusion of the single saddle along with the 4-cell sized LiPO would just be making use of products off the shelf being used in Touring and Off-Road.


Those wishing to run a T-bar coud run the 69mm long pack on one side of the T bar and the ESC, RX ballast on the other side.

Those wanting to linked car would would run the 92mm pack so the shock can clear the pack and the elctronics would be as-is now with 4-cell NiMH.

Those wanting to run NiMh can still run NiMH, but with 3-cell packs instead of 4.

Since the Motors would not be changing to a micro motor, racers can still transplant the ESC and Motor to other vehicles they race in off road or sedan. Even the Saddle pack could be used in other R/C vehicles and not locked to just 1:12.


Last edited by trailranger; 10-30-2008 at 09:59 PM.
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Old 10-31-2008, 02:24 AM   #229
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what about a LRP 15.5 brushless motor and smc 5700mah 25c single cell lipo racing in the same class as a 4 cell nmhi amd 17.5 motor thatshould be close to the same speed.
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Old 10-31-2008, 05:58 AM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trailranger View Post
Here is something to ponder

SMC battery pack 92 x 46 x 22mm

One Side of a Saddle Pack 70 x 47 x 30

Roughly the same volume.. And the volume would be spot on if the SMC pack would be sized to 47mm wide and 22.8mm tall.

So for the aspect of T-Bar cars and Linked Cars. Maybe Two Standards for packs of near equal volume could emerge in the future so that 1:12 would be minimally affected by the addition of LiPO. The inclusion of the single saddle along with the 4-cell sized LiPO would just be making use of products off the shelf being used in Touring and Off-Road.


Those wishing to run a T-bar coud run the 69mm long pack on one side of the T bar and the ESC, RX ballast on the other side.

Those wanting to linked car would would run the 92mm pack so the shock can clear the pack and the elctronics would be as-is now with 4-cell NiMH.

Those wanting to run NiMh can still run NiMH, but with 3-cell packs instead of 4.

Since the Motors would not be changing to a micro motor, racers can still transplant the ESC and Motor to other vehicles they race in off road or sedan. Even the Saddle pack could be used in other R/C vehicles and not locked to just 1:12.

Lol, this keeps getting better and better, so now I need to to change from 4 to 3 cells because you want to run Lipo...

Last week one of my driving buddies tried a A123 cell pack of 7.2V against me (normal 4 cell NiMh (my Ep4200s are 1 year old)). We both drive 19T.

Power was about the same (yes, the SAME). But he had the edge in cornering speed because his car came in at 715gr.
Laptime difference was 0.2s or something like that on a 11s lap.

its easier to make motors slower (if you WANT a 27T BL motor and the idea kicks in then the MFGs will make one) and use 7.2V (esc,... is the same).
Then it is to go to 3.7V and you need to go lower in winds and then the battery will become more and more important (no I will not discuss this again, I had the same discussion in some 1/10th GT thread and you'll have to read it down there)

I say, just stick to 4 cell niMh, my cells last for a year and I only buy 3 new 4 cell packs once a year. What does it cost, 70usd or something like that, I pay more on tires on a complete year of 12th scale then on batteries.
And if you're batteries only last 2 months then you dont treat em right, I never had problems but I dont need the best and most pushed cells out there and if you do you need to live with the fact that if you need the best it comes at a price...

(edit: typo...)
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Old 10-31-2008, 09:37 AM   #231
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25.5 and 27.5 BL motors are out of the question. Because of wire diameter required for ROAR approved motors, those motors are physically harder to wind and will be more expensive to wind due more wire. Novak tired a few 25.5 motors, and gearing was hard to come by. A 27.5 motor would require overdrive gearing.

I'm not making you (Quante) change to 3-cell NiMH because I want to run LiPO. I already stated that I would most likely not switch to LiPO untill next year because I still have good 4-cell packs. Some clubs have already stated that they will allow 4-cell 17.5 and 3.7V 13.5 to run together. This is a compromise to increase the attractiveness of 1:12 without increasing creating a niche race class that only 2 people at a track want to run. As a racer I could care less if someone is running LiPO and I'm running NiMH, I just want a packed house and a full fielded main. I believe 3.7V LiPO in conjuction of NiMH will bring 1:12 into the spotlight.

In the future should the governing bodies of R/C want to take the speeds back a little and call for 3-cell NiMH or 3.7V LiPO wouldn't you (Quante) appreciate the $10 a pack savings for 3-cell over 4-cell?

I'm not trying to reinvent the 1:12 class by requiring new motors, chassis or esc's. I am just stating that with universal off- the-shelf LiPO products that are being used in other 1:10 classes, the 1:12 class can use LiPO and increase the appeal to the club racer who are looking at a second and cheaper class to run besides sedan or GT.
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Old 10-31-2008, 10:34 AM   #232
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just wondering what is wrong with having diffrent size motor for diffrent class, I thought I read some one said hobby shops don't wnat to stock diffrent motors etc...

like engine cars, 1/8 scale .21 size 1/10th .12size... 1/12th scale? .09 size engines.

IMHO.
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Old 10-31-2008, 03:53 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by da_John_wee View Post
just wondering what is wrong with having diffrent size motor for diffrent class, I thought I read some one said hobby shops don't wnat to stock diffrent motors etc...

like engine cars, 1/8 scale .21 size 1/10th .12size... 1/12th scale? .09 size engines.

IMHO.
Several reasons why the introduction of new 1:12 motor/battery/esc/chassis would be harder on Hobby Shops than just using a 3.7V LiPO that can be dual purposed in off-road/sedan or with all pancars depending on the form-factor of the battery.

Increasing the number of parts a hobby shop has to stock will increase the risk of inventory sitting on the shelf and costing money, getting damaged, or being stolen. Not only does excess inventory provide risk to hobby shops it also limits the buying power of the hobby shop since money is tied up.

To prevent stock-outs, inventories have to be kept current by either manual hand counting or by database and perodic hand counting. Implementing a database to automaticly order parts can be expensive. So hobby shops that try to cater to every niche class, basher, and hard core racer will soon find out that it will take alot of money tied up in inventories and alot of man-hours to keep parts stocked. This is why most hobby shops just focus on bashers or racers with a few items in between.

There are many ways to achieve the goal of improving the 1:12 experience. Just only a few ways to reduce the long term cost, limiting the conversion cost and bring in new technology to 1:12. I am not totally apposed to looking at smaller motors in the future, just I feel in the next 5+ years, that change is not needed as it the change would be too abrupt and would need all new race setup and rules for every racer. Right now, the inclusion of 3.7V LiPO to be ran with 4-cell will not cost racers anything extra since batteries get replaced frequently allowing the racer a chance to convert then..
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Old 10-31-2008, 04:04 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quante View Post
Lol, this keeps getting better and better, so now I need to to change from 4 to 3 cells because you want to run Lipo...

Last week one of my driving buddies tried a A123 cell pack of 7.2V against me (normal 4 cell NiMh (my Ep4200s are 1 year old)). We both drive 19T.

Power was about the same (yes, the SAME). But he had the edge in cornering speed because his car came in at 715gr.
Laptime difference was 0.2s or something like that on a 11s lap.

its easier to make motors slower (if you WANT a 27T BL motor and the idea kicks in then the MFGs will make one) and use 7.2V (esc,... is the same).
Then it is to go to 3.7V and you need to go lower in winds and then the battery will become more and more important (no I will not discuss this again, I had the same discussion in some 1/10th GT thread and you'll have to read it down there)

I say, just stick to 4 cell niMh, my cells last for a year and I only buy 3 new 4 cell packs once a year. What does it cost, 70usd or something like that, I pay more on tires on a complete year of 12th scale then on batteries.
And if you're batteries only last 2 months then you dont treat em right, I never had problems but I dont need the best and most pushed cells out there and if you do you need to live with the fact that if you need the best it comes at a price...

(edit: typo...)
If one of you is running 7.4 volts, and the other is running 4.8 volts both with the same motor, and the power was about the same, I would imagine one of you was doing something wrong.
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Old 10-31-2008, 04:47 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by andrewdoherty View Post
If one of you is running 7.4 volts, and the other is running 4.8 volts both with the same motor, and the power was about the same, I would imagine one of you was doing something wrong.
A123 doesn't have 7.2 or 7.4V! They have approx. 5.8 - 6V under 20A load. 4.8 or 6V on a 19t motor, it depends a lot on gearing.
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Old 10-31-2008, 07:10 PM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trailranger View Post
Several reasons why the introduction of new 1:12 motor/battery/esc/chassis would be harder on Hobby Shops than just using a 3.7V LiPO that can be dual purposed in off-road/sedan or with all pancars depending on the form-factor of the battery.

Increasing the number of parts a hobby shop has to stock will increase the risk of inventory sitting on the shelf and costing money, getting damaged, or being stolen. Not only does excess inventory provide risk to hobby shops it also limits the buying power of the hobby shop since money is tied up.

To prevent stock-outs, inventories have to be kept current by either manual hand counting or by database and perodic hand counting. Implementing a database to automaticly order parts can be expensive. So hobby shops that try to cater to every niche class, basher, and hard core racer will soon find out that it will take alot of money tied up in inventories and alot of man-hours to keep parts stocked. This is why most hobby shops just focus on bashers or racers with a few items in between.

There are many ways to achieve the goal of improving the 1:12 experience. Just only a few ways to reduce the long term cost, limiting the conversion cost and bring in new technology to 1:12. I am not totally apposed to looking at smaller motors in the future, just I feel in the next 5+ years, that change is not needed as it the change would be too abrupt and would need all new race setup and rules for every racer. Right now, the inclusion of 3.7V LiPO to be ran with 4-cell will not cost racers anything extra since batteries get replaced frequently allowing the racer a chance to convert then..
all that above logic for hobbyshop to carry 1 more type of motor? if that is true for all those hobbyshops out there there won't be no hobby shop who will bring new kit with new parts in to increase his volume of the business
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Old 10-31-2008, 07:40 PM   #237
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Why not use what the hobby shop already has?
- 13.5 (19t)
- Typical ESC

Hobbyshops already have these on the shelves, so lets use them! All the hobbyshops would have to stock is Single-Cell Lipo's, and Reciever Packs. 2 cheap and easy to stock items. all the existing 13.5 and 19t motors can be used. Cheap and Easy.

I will be running Single-Cell Lipo vs. 4Cell Nimh tommorrow at the races, so I will inform ya'll of the results.

Cheers!

Last edited by Bigshades; 10-31-2008 at 07:43 PM. Reason: typo...
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Old 10-31-2008, 09:06 PM   #238
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Most hobby shops already sell 1/18th cars and gear for them. They aren't carrying anything new if they already stock 18r's, etc.

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Old 10-31-2008, 09:08 PM   #239
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Quote:
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Most hobby shops already sell 1/18th cars and gear for them. They aren't carrying anything new if they already stock 18r's, etc.

Paul
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Old 10-31-2008, 09:19 PM   #240
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All this BS in 1/12th makes me want to race it less and less. I am buying a TC Sunday, so as much as it hurts, I am putting the 1/12th to rest for a while... I don't have the money for $28 in tires every weekend. I am hoping once I go to TC I can race every week instead of every other week, and it is still cheaper than 1/12th. I am talking TC rubber here... on carpet. Tires last a whole season and cost $28. LiPo's last 2-3 season's and cost $100. BL systems get outdated quick, but still work fine. Lets see for 1/12th... $28 in tires every week to stay competitive. And batteries every 6 months. On top of that, the way the 1/12th market is getting, new releases are monthly... My DB12R just got outdated. The Losi Type-R hasn't changed at all in the year and 6 months it has been out.
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