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Old 10-27-2008, 03:22 PM   #196
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Dead shorting anythin up to 3700's isnt abusing cells,,,
and yes.. wrong thread! LOL
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Old 10-27-2008, 04:47 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by MUDVAYNE View Post
I didn't accuse you of anything. I simply asked a question and then stated that I was willing to bet that you deadshort. And yes, this thread is about moving forward with 12th scale, so maybe you need to stop with the attitude.
I guess I shouldn't have taken the words "I'm betting you do" so personaly.
And no I do not dead short. Dead shorting is abuse IMO due to the TDoD studies with Pb batteries.
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Old 10-28-2008, 11:18 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Trips View Post
I am probably not the guy to ask on this topic, because I don't really want to see change in 1/12 scale, but if I were to pick, I'd choose the 2 cell/small motor concept over the single-cell and receiver pack option. I've tried receiver packs at various times over the years (and I've been actively racing 1/12 since 1979) and I';ve never had much of anything good to say about them.

I've seen Roland's car run, and I've driven it myself, and the concept works.

Just my own opinion here...
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Originally Posted by RCSteve93 View Post
I drove Roland's car Sunday and all I can say is wow! No tire wear and insane fast. He definitely has me hooked. I noticed no handling issues what so ever. I think this is the future. Even if this doesn't take off as a class to race, it will work awesome for practice so you don't have to keep buying tires.

Steve:
Have you ever talk to anyone who is not into RC?, they do not seems to understand why we are so into it, they do not know what 's involved and you have to present it phisically to them for them to understand. And it's the same feeling I have with most people here. They, most of them, simply can't envision the whole pictures with this new version of 1/12 I'm talking about. It'll take some time, I know.

Actually, I have driven the car more than a few times when you were there. And maybe you knew I was testing all along, but we never talked to each at the track, because we both are new to each other. Anyway, I'm glade it happened that you get to drive the car youself. I'm glade I've made a believer out of you. Like you so well said, even if it does not become recognized as a race class, it's a blast to drive and it cost a lot less for the same mileage.

Anyway, yours and Trip's quote needs to be nepeated again and again.

See you Sunday?
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Old 10-29-2008, 12:11 AM   #199
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You know Roland, what's turning me (and a lot of others) off here is your presentation. You've got this attitude that is very much like a religious zealot, where you have discovered the one way and the light, and anyone who doesn't see it exactly your way is a poor, ignorant dullard to be pitied and talked down to. Some of your comments, especially those in your last post, are so condescending that I will never be able to bring myself to lend any credibility to anything else you say.

There are so many better ways you could have presented your hard work and research that would have engaged the community in constructive debate and conversation instead of alienating anyone who dares to question you.

Take a moment to look back at yourself and consider the fact that whereas you have come up with one possible approach, there may be others out there with equal or greater merit. Perhaps ideas can even be combined to arrive at the ultimate solution.

Either way, when you declare your way to be the one and only possible correct approach you lose all credibility with anyone with any background in critical thinking or the Scientific Method, or even with half a brain and a decent BS detector.

[/rant]
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Old 10-29-2008, 08:42 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by reenmachine View Post
You know Roland, what's turning me (and a lot of others) off here is your presentation. You've got this attitude that is very much like a religious zealot, where you have discovered the one way and the light, and anyone who doesn't see it exactly your way is a poor, ignorant dullard to be pitied and talked down to. Some of your comments, especially those in your last post, are so condescending that I will never be able to bring myself to lend any credibility to anything else you say.

There are so many better ways you could have presented your hard work and research that would have engaged the community in constructive debate and conversation instead of alienating anyone who dares to question you.

Take a moment to look back at yourself and consider the fact that whereas you have come up with one possible approach, there may be others out there with equal or greater merit. Perhaps ideas can even be combined to arrive at the ultimate solution.

Either way, when you declare your way to be the one and only possible correct approach you lose all credibility with anyone with any background in critical thinking or the Scientific Method, or even with half a brain and a decent BS detector.

[/rant]
Just take into consideration English is not Roland's first language. Sometimes things get lost in the translation. I've known and raced with Roland for years and he has the best intentions but sometimes it does not come across that way.

Interesting fact, our local club in NY, 360 Raceway is going to offer 1/12th scales the option to run 1c Lipo with 10.5 or 4-cell 17.5 to race together. One of the owners, Donny has been testing both options and have found the net difference in lap times to be less than .1 sec. To offset, the lipo chassis will be allowed to race at a slightly lower weight to help level the .1sec difference.

IMO, this is an attrractive offer for us racers who have little time to work on our equipment. I'll have all my 1/12th scales wired with the 1c lipo and ready to go whenever I find a chance to race
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Old 10-29-2008, 08:52 AM   #201
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carl im curious about 1 thing. you said donnie is going to allow the 1c w/ 10.5 to run with 4 cell 17.5. i thought everyone said that the 1c and 13.5 was equiv. im trying to get mine set up w/ a lipo and wonder which motor to run with the 4 cell 17.5 to be close. thanks
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Old 10-29-2008, 09:14 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Carl Giordano View Post
Just take into consideration English is not Roland's first language. Sometimes things get lost in the translation. I've known and raced with Roland for years and he has the best intentions but sometimes it does not come across that way.

Interesting fact, our local club in NY, 360 Raceway is going to offer 1/12th scales the option to run 1c Lipo with 10.5 or 4-cell 17.5 to race together. One of the owners, Donny has been testing both options and have found the net difference in lap times to be less than .1 sec. To offset, the lipo chassis will be allowed to race at a slightly lower weight to help level the .1sec difference.

IMO, this is an attrractive offer for us racers who have little time to work on our equipment. I'll have all my 1/12th scales wired with the 1c lipo and ready to go whenever I find a chance to race
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Originally Posted by buffalobill989 View Post
carl im curious about 1 thing. you said donnie is going to allow the 1c w/ 10.5 to run with 4 cell 17.5. i thought everyone said that the 1c and 13.5 was equiv. im trying to get mine set up w/ a lipo and wonder which motor to run with the 4 cell 17.5 to be close. thanks
Hey Carl is just mistaken, the option for Lipo actually is with 13.5 motors. He is dead on with the weight break though, the rule is going to be ~680g for Lipo cars, race ready at 360 RC.

Was doing some testing yesterday, car drives awesome being so light. My car weighed in at 674g. Very nimble and very lil tire wear. I changed absolutely nothing as far as setup going from nimh to lipo and the car was suprisingly really awesome.

Any other ?? just ask I'd be glad to help.
-Donny Lia
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Old 10-29-2008, 09:20 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Carl Giordano View Post
Just take into consideration English is not Roland's first language. Sometimes things get lost in the translation. I've known and raced with Roland for years and he has the best intentions but sometimes it does not come across that way.

Interesting fact, our local club in NY, 360 Raceway is going to offer 1/12th scales the option to run 1c Lipo with 10.5 or 4-cell 17.5 to race together. One of the owners, Donny has been testing both options and have found the net difference in lap times to be less than .1 sec. To offset, the lipo chassis will be allowed to race at a slightly lower weight to help level the .1sec difference.

IMO, this is an attrractive offer for us racers who have little time to work on our equipment. I'll have all my 1/12th scales wired with the 1c lipo and ready to go whenever I find a chance to race
I could tell that English isn't his first language and understand how some nuances can be lost in translation. The ideas and insistence that his way is the one and only way that any thinking person could ever embrace is what rubbed me the wrong way.

I am actually a big fan of the BL/lipo concept in 1/12 scale and it's what will pull me into that type of racing when it is established. I also admire and appreciate Roland's time, expense, and efforts here. I just don't like being talked down to is all.
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Old 10-29-2008, 09:43 AM   #204
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Do we have an list of speed controls in one place that have been tested on the track?

I realize that I could probably figure it by reading all 300+ posts again in 3 different threads. I'm just hoping someone made a running count.
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Old 10-29-2008, 10:08 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by 360rcspeedway View Post
Hey Carl is just mistaken, the option for Lipo actually is with 13.5 motors. He is dead on with the weight break though, the rule is going to be ~680g for Lipo cars, race ready at 360 RC.

Was doing some testing yesterday, car drives awesome being so light. My car weighed in at 674g. Very nimble and very lil tire wear. I changed absolutely nothing as far as setup going from nimh to lipo and the car was suprisingly really awesome.

Any other ?? just ask I'd be glad to help.
-Donny Lia
thanks alot donnie. im looking forward to trying the lipo bl thing. have been waiting along time for this.... thanks for help guys
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Old 10-29-2008, 10:41 AM   #206
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Everyone in favor of the lipo thing seems to forget that you will still have to take it out of the car to charge it in a lipo sack. I'm also almost willing to bet that the matching wars will start soon with the lipo's, and then we'll be right back where we started, except the class will be smaller due to the fact that I've heard alot of guys saying the will race another class if and when lipo takes over. At least thats whats happening at several tracks I have been to. And once the matching wars start again, then you guys will be saying that you want to run another type of new technology. the class is just fine the way it is. Let's not complicate things further.
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Old 10-29-2008, 10:44 AM   #207
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Honestly the lipos are close enough that its all up to driver IMO, ESPECIALLY for the club racer. Shoot, I wouldn't leave the TC class if NIMH took over again, I can't imagine leaving because LiPO takes over...
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Old 10-29-2008, 10:58 AM   #208
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Mudvayne, I was one of the many that preached caution for sedan and lipos, and also have been cautioning the same for 12th. I too, would hate to see a great class messed up. However, Donny has been doing a lot of empirical testing back to back with top line race cells to the single cell lipo prototypes. If it were some other keyboard racer that was just shooting off his mouth (or keys from the computer as it were), I'd be hollering at the top of my lungs (caps key).

For testing purposes you need a driver that is capable of turning the exact same laps time after time, something that Donny is well capable of. You also need someone that sets up their car exactly the same every time almost to the point of OCDing. I can tell you that every time I have seen his car it was almost perfect (I never found anything wrong, although I never obsessed over his car long enough to try to find errors)...

The short of what I am saying, I don't think that when this technology becomes available and tracks adopt it, that we will be upset with the rules that get adopted as a result of his hard work. Like all things, we may find that we need to massage things a little here an there to make it ideal for everyone. However, I would be confident that we will be extremely close to where we need to be for single cell lipo in the Stock division - probably the most widely club raced division in the US for 12th scale.
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Old 10-29-2008, 12:05 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by MUDVAYNE View Post
Everyone in favor of the lipo thing seems to forget that you will still have to take it out of the car to charge it in a lipo sack. I'm also almost willing to bet that the matching wars will start soon with the lipo's, and then we'll be right back where we started, except the class will be smaller due to the fact that I've heard alot of guys saying the will race another class if and when lipo takes over. At least thats whats happening at several tracks I have been to. And once the matching wars start again, then you guys will be saying that you want to run another type of new technology. the class is just fine the way it is. Let's not complicate things further.
your assuming ill be using a lipo sac. thers only two sacks i need. one hold my nuts and the other one.... well thats anther story
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Old 10-29-2008, 12:46 PM   #210
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Mudvayne, I was one of the many that preached caution for sedan and lipos, and also have been cautioning the same for 12th. I too, would hate to see a great class messed up. However, Donny has been doing a lot of empirical testing back to back with top line race cells to the single cell lipo prototypes. If it were some other keyboard racer that was just shooting off his mouth (or keys from the computer as it were), I'd be hollering at the top of my lungs (caps key).

For testing purposes you need a driver that is capable of turning the exact same laps time after time, something that Donny is well capable of. You also need someone that sets up their car exactly the same every time almost to the point of OCDing. I can tell you that every time I have seen his car it was almost perfect (I never found anything wrong, although I never obsessed over his car long enough to try to find errors)...

The short of what I am saying, I don't think that when this technology becomes available and tracks adopt it, that we will be upset with the rules that get adopted as a result of his hard work. Like all things, we may find that we need to massage things a little here an there to make it ideal for everyone. However, I would be confident that we will be extremely close to where we need to be for single cell lipo in the Stock division - probably the most widely club raced division in the US for 12th scale.

Tim, the real problems I have with lipo's are the following:

1. They have no punch to them. They're flatter than hell, and I know this because I have driven a touring car with and without one installed.

2. In order to get the lipo's to be able to come down to the right voltage, you would have to install a voltage regulator. Who do you think will be tweeking them some to get extra voltage from the battery?

3. If you go to a 2 cell lipo and a 380 motor, you're going to screw up how the car handles. Yes I've had this arguement before, but there will be less weight on a bigger contact patch of the tire, and it will affect forward bite etc.

4. The battery itself weighs way less than NiMH's, which willalso affect handling.

5. Cost. I work at a hobbyshop part time and I know what these cells cost. You might as well buy NiMH's. And don't say they last longer or don't fall off like NiMH's, because they do. I've seen it. And what little punch they do have also falls off. I've had racers tell me this.

So, thats my arguements and I'm sticking to them.
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