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Old 10-22-2008, 01:35 PM   #151
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Instead of a Panasonic 2.4v battery, here is an old thread about a Toshiba 2.4v / cell battery. Might be close to what we would need:

http://www.rctech.net/forum/electric...b-battery.html
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Old 10-22-2008, 03:36 PM   #152
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hey joe !

lets not forget that a round cell 4 cell pack peaks about 6 volts.
and a lipo (even these) will only peak @ 4.8 as opposed to the 4.2 we would be getting from todays packs.
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Old 10-22-2008, 04:48 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by John St.Amant View Post
Let me put it this way ...
You only need one pack to race all night ! Maybe two.
And forgive me but ... when trinity cycled 10,000 cells and joel johnson gets the best ones..... u do the math. Yes , some li-pos are better than others. By the slimist of margins. Some may have a more punch .. but dont they all peak @ 8.4 volts? dont thay all have just about the same run time? Dont be stubborn.... admit it, Li-pos are the best thing thats happened to TC racing anyways . Look around . Everyone is using them! Except you for some reason. i know 12th is a different bird . the flat cells are a blessing for me. almost ZERO maintenance. and they always ROCK!
nope they all don't peak at 8.4 some were peaking at 8.6 in vegas and they sent them back to try again as vegas set a voltage limit. meaning you can over charge them and get more speed out of them. which is what the oval guys are doing. one of my oval buddy's said the fast oval guys are charging them at 3c and then tossing them or selling them to some unsupecting kid after 10 runs as they WILL blow up a couple charges later. now if your club track doesn't have the resources to tech you know that's going to happen. same thing with a 1 or 2 cell 3.7 lipo for 12th scale if I know I can get 10% more by over charging it for the main you don't think I'm going to do it. ti's racing it's pushing the limits of speed to win. and as for zero maintance we have 2 noobs in our TA class locally that can't get a charge in them and are dumping them in our TA class. most likely they let them discharge too low and ruined them so here is another $100 for a new lipo pack. we need something that is more duable then lipo and nihm. I'm just not sure what it is now.

lipo free and sticking with the nihms
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Old 10-22-2008, 05:42 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by John St.Amant View Post
hey joe !

lets not forget that a round cell 4 cell pack peaks about 6 volts.
and a lipo (even these) will only peak @ 4.8 as opposed to the 4.2 we would be getting from todays packs.
John, A good NiMh pack averages 4.85v at 35 amps. Peak voltage means absolutely nothing when it comes to performance. It's the voltage under load on the track that counts.

Single cell LiPo will be a lot less and 2 cell will be a lot more under load where it counts. Lower is probably not a big deal because the cars are too fast as it is. Higher will make the cars even faster (probably killing mod) and that's not an option as far as I'm concerned. A couple of 2.4v cells might be a great option if they're ever available in a package we can actually use.
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Old 10-22-2008, 06:30 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by CarbonJoe View Post
Instead of a Panasonic 2.4v battery, here is an old thread about a Toshiba 2.4v / cell battery. Might be close to what we would need:

http://www.rctech.net/forum/electric...b-battery.html
I would hate to be a downer on the Toshiba cells, but they are building the cells to replace 26650 cells and 18650 that are commonly used in EV applications. Just like A123 they are not real concerned with the R/C and more concered with the current market of EV' and Hybrid cars.

With LiPO's, a custom sized cells can be made to make drop-in replacements for a 4-cell NiMH pack. So once again, it will be easier to fit a LiPO to the car than try to fit the car to the battery. In 1:!2 trying to fit the a car to work on 7.4V would be a harder task than just using a 3.7V LiPO.

3.7V Lipo is only a 23%reduction in voltage instead of a 54% increase of voltage. Voltage is mostly responsible for speed and even with a smaller motor speeds will be faster compared to a 17.5 at 4.8V. Just like the 21.5 LiPO combo in oval, going to a smaller or weaker motor will not magically make a stock class with the ideal speeds.

Last edited by trailranger; 10-22-2008 at 08:51 PM.
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Old 10-22-2008, 06:45 PM   #156
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On the topic of "the future" I'm betting that this is how it will happen. We'll have three groups of racers splitting up 12th at club races. NiMh 4 cell, single cell LiPo, and the 2cell small motor guys. One of these will win out in the end and ROAR (and everyone else) will either keep the current rules or draft new ones for the class that wins out.

As much as I'd like to run LiPo in 12th I've still got the same old round cells in my car. They work. The new cells last pretty well. Nothing new to buy and ROAR has rules for the class.

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Fred is correct
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Old 10-22-2008, 07:08 PM   #157
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Old 10-22-2008, 10:08 PM   #158
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selling abused lipos to some unexpecting kid should be concidered a felony.
hasnt ROAR placed a 1c charge limit on lipos ? that should be a law. If a race is cought charging a pack unresponsibly... they should be banned from competition. I race remote controlled cars cause my shifter kart was way too dangerous. But then again nothing there burned at 2500 degrees ferinheit. Seriously now.. why would anyone risk burning down the house over a toy car race . If u need to do that to win i would love to watch you cry like jeff gordon when your favorite track burns down or some kid loses his life playing with a TOY CAR ! Dont be an idiot... play by the rules and no one will get hurt. TOY CAR TOY CAR TOY CAR. cheaters never prosper .
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Old 10-23-2008, 01:42 AM   #159
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He guys!
I've read this thread intense and could not avoid to comment some things.
First of all, 1/12 is not dead....its growing. If I see whats going on at EC's, Nats, Cleveland or Snowbirds....man 1/12 is doing well there.

Very often at Cleveland or Snowbirds 1/12 is the biggest class overall.

Further on, I think Lipo is a very big hype and those discussions came up due the bad Intellect WC cells.
I don't think its the right way to make fast conclusions, the NimH cells on the market now are of good quality, makes no sense to me to change all.

Look, Lipos are fine to me for fun hobby racers...but not for real Rc racing. Racers are extreme and also with Lipos this will not change. Its very easy to overcharge a Lipo and get 8 volts instead of 7,4 volts. Who will controll that??
They are so much lighter and the sizes now do not really fit to 1/12.
Also people who say lipos won't break are blind. They do, they might not explode like the NimH WC cell, but they do brake!

Another problem is, will we take one or two cells??? Two is too much and one cell will be a problem with speedos and receivers.....you will be forced to use a receiver pack.

Further on I think we are going way too fast....overall in all electric classes entries are going down. Its getting too expensive, cause materials can not hold it anymore. With Lipos this will get worse.

For example TC mod....when I look at last years Snowbirds...how many cars did finish in the A or B main?? Or at the IIC?? Man, is that the way to go??
Don't think so.

I would leave 1/12 as it is now....I see really no reason for a change now.
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Old 10-23-2008, 05:19 AM   #160
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Hi guys. I have read bits and pieces here. I have a few ideas.

1) make a new speedo with reg to cut a 2cell down to 6v. You keep the same motors and pods for the cars so you should be able to run the old cars with out too much trouble. That would kill any advantage of over charging the cells and all the rules will stay the same. Real easy to check for the right speedo.

2) run 2 cells but build a new light wieght 540 size motor wound for 4cell/27t perfomance? Chassis's would stay the same so again, the old cars could be used. Easy to tech a motor and would have to make a new 1/12 line of motors. Maybe make them the size of a brushed ?

I like the idea of 380 sized motors but would have to make them sensored and make them tamper proof. Plus a whole lot of changes for the car and rules.

How many guys have lost 4200 or 4600 packs because we let them sit? I just lost 3 packs over the summer. I hate round cells. All the balancing and cycling. Lipos are no treat either, they puff, explode,$$$. But, brushless/lipo is the future.

Just spitballing here.

I vote 2cell !!!!!
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Old 10-23-2008, 10:12 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by PartTime View Post
Hi guys. I have read bits and pieces here. I have a few ideas.

1) make a new speedo with reg to cut a 2cell down to 6v. You keep the same motors and pods for the cars so you should be able to run the old cars with out too much trouble. That would kill any advantage of over charging the cells and all the rules will stay the same. Real easy to check for the right speedo.

2) run 2 cells but build a new light wieght 540 size motor wound for 4cell/27t perfomance? Chassis's would stay the same so again, the old cars could be used. Easy to tech a motor and would have to make a new 1/12 line of motors. Maybe make them the size of a brushed ?

I like the idea of 380 sized motors but would have to make them sensored and make them tamper proof. Plus a whole lot of changes for the car and rules.

How many guys have lost 4200 or 4600 packs because we let them sit? I just lost 3 packs over the summer. I hate round cells. All the balancing and cycling. Lipos are no treat either, they puff, explode,$$$. But, brushless/lipo is the future.

Just spitballing here.

I vote 2cell !!!!!
DK
Any time limits are imposed on performance of the given item cheating can occur. If you put 5V regulators in the car, who to say that the regulator is not tampered with or bypassed. If you use Rollout limits, who is to say taller softer tires are used that will wear to the correct level? If you use restict the Capacity, who is to say that the wrappers are not changed.

Let the racers have the best and cheating will be minimal since there is little a person can do to improve performance. If they have the best motor, speedo and batteries how can they improve on that?
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Old 10-23-2008, 10:24 AM   #162
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OK, page 6 now and we're getting long posts from people who haven't bothered to read the thread and are bring up points that have long ago been debated ad nauseam.
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Old 10-23-2008, 10:37 AM   #163
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BLAHBLAHBLAH!!!
seems to me that no one here realy has a great idea about what needs to be done, the simple matter of fact is
If you gotta cheat to win, are you realy a winner ?

even then.. we all have a lot of experience ... i think it would be obvious if some one was trying to pull a "fast one" . a voltage regulator would never be consistant enough to warrent its use. God forbid someone had an extra hundreth of a volt or a little extra amp draw. Simple way to solve this is to make the races longer. That would slow the cars down wouldn't it. Some basterd will try to distroy whatever class he runs just to win doesnt know what sportsmanship is all about. Abusing cells or doctoring anything beyond the legal limits isnt what this is supposed to be like . Slot car racing died from all the money everyone had to throw away just to go fast . DONT LET THAT HAPPEN HERE! Cheat in any REAL motorsport and you get a fine of even suspended. TOY CARS GENTLEMEN! folow the rules and drive to victory and people will respect you . Cheat and no one will care how fast your car is.
What ever the rules end up being. CHEATERS WILL STICK OUT LIKE A SORE THUMB! Furthermore if any one can't be responsible enough to charge a bettery (whatever it may be) they shouldnt be racing.
Any cell you use has a potential of becoming a projectile , bomb , flame thrower.. whatever! Lets not get our ROAR insurance revolked for doing something stupid just to go a little faster.
SO PLAY NICE OR STAY HOME!
Don't blow up the outside world!

Last edited by John St.Amant; 10-23-2008 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 10-23-2008, 11:26 AM   #164
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Any track that's not checking for overcharging is setting themselves up for a fire. It takes like 20 seconds to check with a voltmeter. Get caught above the limit that ROAR set (8.44v?) and you get to go home. It's really not that hard.

Charging at 2-3C isn't a big deal as long as you do it properly. You have to have good cells that can handle the high charge rate and use a good balance charger. The pack won't even get warm at 10 amps if the pack is good.

Dont' confuse charging at 2-3C with overcharging the cells because they're totally different animals.
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Old 10-23-2008, 11:55 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by gijoe64 View Post
Roland,

Why are you so put off by Nimhs? This is insane! I understand that Lipos are the wave of the future but to stop racing a class because you can get a Lipo for the car is crazy. This class is becoming stronger as I see it and no one is complaining about using lipos in my area, the Nimhs are much better than they used to be and they seem to last longer now. Buy changing everything this will only put racers off and not bring them in. I think the reason everyone at your track stopped racing 1/12 is the negitive attitudes about a certain product and the lemming affect followed so everyone stopped. If you bash Nimhs and newbies hear what your talking about, they will think that 1/12 scale racing is not worth trying think about it.

And nobody answerd the question about less weight in a 1/12 and how this would affect handleing and ease of driving.
I can answer it - the car is not as easy to drive, you need softer tyres that chunk more, and the weight bias shifts to the body so you need to use lightweight shells. With great respect to those that are running it, you can't compete on a National basis with a lightweight LiPo car. Club racing might be OK...

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I wish everyone would figure out what we are going to do with the 12th cars.
I have just purchased a 12R5 and a 17.5 (even tho I cant stand round cells any more), I even ordered the hud anc thrust cone and new upper and lower pods to center it up. I had suggested smaller motors like ten years ago and no one would listen. Now i have a Novak GTB 4-cell and havnt even used it yet. Somehow now that I have all new stuff... except batteries for it... I realy would rather see a nice single cell li-po in the car and 17.5. Changing speedo and motor and using cells that I wouldnt be able to use in any of my other cars doesn't seem like a practical solution. I would love to race 12th again. But I do not want all specialized stuff to run it. Atleast for now anyways I can use my (crapy at best) 3700's from my 10R5. Waiting for a ROAR legal Li-po for 12th is killing me already. 1 cell and 13.5 ought to be just about right!
Stop trying to figure out what to do with 12th scale. If you want to run another class, make Rules and see who comes to race it...

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Originally Posted by CypressMidWest View Post
Exactly how I feel about those that destroy EP or Ener-G cells......

I have experience with both LIPO and Nimh cells, and neither appears to be monumenatally more convenient than the other to me. But by all means, keep telling me that my 20+ years of experience in the hobby/sport means nothing and that LIPO will save the RC World.

Danny has said it time and again ( of course what does Danny know about batteries and the industry, right?), when LIPO becomes the ONLY formula, we'll be right back to where we were with good nimhs. Just the way it was when we switched from Nicads to Nimhs, many "racers" believed that we'd never have a battery war or unreliable cells again. They were wrong then, just as they are now........
Hear, hear! Once LiPo becomes a standard in ay class raced at National or International level, then LiPo cells will be just like NiMh, and you'll need to buy the latest thing, or the Team packs. Nothing RC has ever developed has stayed easy to use or cheap. Are you using the same radio gear today as 10 years ago - no. Did that come free? No.

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The 2.4v cells that I know about are Toshiba's. Maybe Panasonic's working on something as well.

On the topic of "the future" I'm betting that this is how it will happen. We'll have three groups of racers splitting up 12th at club races. NiMh 4 cell, single cell LiPo, and the 2cell small motor guys. One of these will win out in the end and ROAR (and everyone else) will either keep the current rules or draft new ones for the class that wins out.

As much as I'd like to run LiPo in 12th I've still got the same old round cells in my car. They work. The new cells last pretty well. Nothing new to buy and ROAR has rules for the class.

Once the SMC pack is out we'll see how it goes.
That's exactly how to do it. If you want to people to 'buy' into something, you have to create a market for it. Stop all this useless discussion and make some Rules that people can work within.

Make something you can 'sell'; a market that people can buy in to. And i you give me that c**p about ROAR and IFMAR making the Rules, just look what Scotty Ernst has done for WorldGT. He created an market and people have bought in. You are wasting our time on this thread talking about what might be - get out there and create something that is.

If you're as right as Scotty was, 12th NiMh class will die on its own, and you will have created something new. This thread is the latest in a long line of them that has done nothing useful at all to get a 12th LiPo class, because the class is non-existant. Build it, and they will come - or not, in my case!!

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lipo free and sticking with the nihms
+1!
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