Should EFRA allow Lipos?
10-02-2008, 07:28 AM
#16
[QUOTE=afonsospt;4898051]
Seems like your bent on not running Lipos.. you seem to believe that the mod drivers you know are bad drivers, since all you talk about is how they'll be crashing on the first corner...
I don't think mod drivers crash every corner, especially EU drivers, who have lots of experience running mod.
You make it seem like 5 cell 3.5 cars are undriveable, which is not the case. Move forward and embrace Lipo...it will happen, so get used to it.
I do not know if it is the spirit, or if it is an obligation because of the batteries. Only now we have batteries to run happily in the same tracks as 1/10-200, with lipo.
QUOTE]
Even in Club Racing,where lipo is used without motor limitation,electric TC doesnt use the whole track.
At least in big tracks such as Sintra and Monsanto.You should know that.
Yesterday I've noticed a driver wondering in Gm brushless thread,about the possibility of running 5T and 6T with lipo.
Dont you think 700W to 800W is to powerfull for an electric car?
Unless the idea is running fast n the straight and crash in first corner.
This same issues have been discussed at Portuguese forum.
I cant understand why you bring it here again.Do you need international audience?
QUOTE]
Even in Club Racing,where lipo is used without motor limitation,electric TC doesnt use the whole track.
At least in big tracks such as Sintra and Monsanto.You should know that.
Yesterday I've noticed a driver wondering in Gm brushless thread,about the possibility of running 5T and 6T with lipo.
Dont you think 700W to 800W is to powerfull for an electric car?
Unless the idea is running fast n the straight and crash in first corner.
This same issues have been discussed at Portuguese forum.
I cant understand why you bring it here again.Do you need international audience?
I don't think mod drivers crash every corner, especially EU drivers, who have lots of experience running mod.
You make it seem like 5 cell 3.5 cars are undriveable, which is not the case. Move forward and embrace Lipo...it will happen, so get used to it.
10-02-2008, 08:05 AM
#18
EFRA should approve LiPo, and it should keep TC Mod as max 6v.
TC with 7.4v are undriveable for the majority of drivers. Also, European countries have strict Health and Safety Laws, so all tracks would need to to be upgraded to 8th Track standards which most Clubs can't afford.
No, the heat length should not be increased. That means that meetings must have less drivers, and that means an increase in race fees, or less income for the Club. In the current economic climate, neither is acceptable. And, as Fred B says, it will mean another tyre war, and much more wear and tear on the car - both are more expense.
The only place where TC Mod is still 7.2v is ROAR. Everywhere else in the World, National competition is 6v or 4.8v. I think pushing TC Mod to 7.4v will probably drive people to 12th and Off-Road and World GT.
TC with 7.4v are undriveable for the majority of drivers. Also, European countries have strict Health and Safety Laws, so all tracks would need to to be upgraded to 8th Track standards which most Clubs can't afford.
No, the heat length should not be increased. That means that meetings must have less drivers, and that means an increase in race fees, or less income for the Club. In the current economic climate, neither is acceptable. And, as Fred B says, it will mean another tyre war, and much more wear and tear on the car - both are more expense.
The only place where TC Mod is still 7.2v is ROAR. Everywhere else in the World, National competition is 6v or 4.8v. I think pushing TC Mod to 7.4v will probably drive people to 12th and Off-Road and World GT.
They should allow lipo, and still allow cells to run. In Roar, you can run up to a 6c or 2s, which still allows for a 5c pack in mod, which a lot of drivers run for rubber tires. With carpet/foam which is popular is the US, you can actually put down the power of a 3.5/lipo/6c, so the rules allow for it.
Last edited by geeunit1014; 10-02-2008 at 08:06 AM. Reason: spellcheck
10-02-2008, 08:14 AM
#19
Seems like your bent on not running Lipos.. you seem to believe that the mod drivers you know are bad drivers, since all you talk about is how they'll be crashing on the first corner...
I don't think mod drivers crash every corner, especially EU drivers, who have lots of experience running mod.
You make it seem like 5 cell 3.5 cars are undriveable, which is not the case. Move forward and embrace Lipo...it will happen, so get used to it.
No, the point is with 7,4 volts (6 cell nimh or lipo) the cars are undriveable with the actual motors. Also, there will be an excessive wear and tear for this scale as said before. It’s probably why stock classes are so popular in USA, compared with modified, as lot of American users writes in this forum.
We had already embrace Lipo in stock class in National Championship (Portugal) and in modified we are following EFRA rules.
Of course we also have club races where everyone is free to use whatever. We don’t need to made a National Club Race Championship and leave the TC European rules.
10-02-2008, 08:27 AM
#20
yes Lipos should be allowed - no question.
if 7.4V + 3.5BL is too fast for you, run the lower class or a 5.5 which is plenty fast already.
If 7.4V + 3.5BL is too fast for your fellow racers and they crash all the time (they probably were already crashing all the time with 6V...), tell your track director to force them to run the lower class.
Seriously - people aren't stupid... when there's too much power, they usually go to higher winds (whether brushed or brushless) by themselves once they figure out they can't keep their car on the track with that much power. I race lipo + 4.5 outdoors, and even if someone gave me a 3.5 I wouldn't race it as 4.5 is as fast as I can handle under 7.4V.
The wear with 5c and 3.5 / 2.5 BL is silly high already anyway... people running mod/unlimited/whatchamacallit know that and accept it, not an issue for them... but partially charging/discharging pack under temp control and such IS and issue.
Lipo is the only way to go anyway... NiXX is a technology whose golden years are behind. No point resisting it.
EFRA, allow lipos please.
Paul
if 7.4V + 3.5BL is too fast for you, run the lower class or a 5.5 which is plenty fast already.
If 7.4V + 3.5BL is too fast for your fellow racers and they crash all the time (they probably were already crashing all the time with 6V...), tell your track director to force them to run the lower class.
Seriously - people aren't stupid... when there's too much power, they usually go to higher winds (whether brushed or brushless) by themselves once they figure out they can't keep their car on the track with that much power. I race lipo + 4.5 outdoors, and even if someone gave me a 3.5 I wouldn't race it as 4.5 is as fast as I can handle under 7.4V.
The wear with 5c and 3.5 / 2.5 BL is silly high already anyway... people running mod/unlimited/whatchamacallit know that and accept it, not an issue for them... but partially charging/discharging pack under temp control and such IS and issue.
Lipo is the only way to go anyway... NiXX is a technology whose golden years are behind. No point resisting it.
EFRA, allow lipos please.
Paul
10-02-2008, 08:57 AM
#21
Thank you Lonestar but I have already know what motor to run with Lipo. The problem is those who think the way to drive in the straights only with a 5T or 6T delta like someone post in GM brushless thread. I know too the wear in 5 cells is already some, but imagine with more voltage.
Some races directors are more concerned with the amount of inscriptions in race than to force anyone to race in where they don’t desire. I wouldn’t like to see the tracks become battle camps with everybody convinced that is the best driver.
Some races directors are more concerned with the amount of inscriptions in race than to force anyone to race in where they don’t desire. I wouldn’t like to see the tracks become battle camps with everybody convinced that is the best driver.
10-02-2008, 09:28 AM
#22
Tech Apprentice
YES. Efra should let us to drive LiPo's !
10-02-2008, 10:30 AM
#23
Thank you Lonestar but I have already know what motor to run with Lipo. The problem is those who think the way to drive in the straights only with a 5T or 6T delta like someone post in GM brushless thread. I know too the wear in 5 cells is already some, but imagine with more voltage.
Some races directors are more concerned with the amount of inscriptions in race than to force anyone to race in where they don’t desire. I wouldn’t like to see the tracks become battle camps with everybody convinced that is the best driver.
Some races directors are more concerned with the amount of inscriptions in race than to force anyone to race in where they don’t desire. I wouldn’t like to see the tracks become battle camps with everybody convinced that is the best driver.
5 cell w/ 3.5 have a much lower weight limit than 6 cell 3.5. The reason why 5 cell 3.5 cars are a bit faster over all than 6 cell mod cars is because the 5 cell weight has been dropped by almost 100g, which helps the 5 cell cars accelerate and corner quicker and produce some over all better lap times, but also be a little easier on the car due to the lighter weight.
5 cell 3.5 cars are going faster today than last years 6 cell mod cars, mainly because the new 5 cell brushless combo is just quicker over all with the lower weight...so why are people complaining that 6 cell or 7.4 Lipo is too fast, when the evidence suggests that 5 cell nimh is faster? You guys are already used to those speeds, and using a 7.4v Lipo will not hurt that and you can do a couple things to "slow" things down with Lipo:
1) gearing...obvuiously you cant gear it like a 5 cell nimh.
2) Lipo weight- a 5000mah Lipo weighs in about 265g, which is still 100g lower than 5 cell nimh pack. Just keep the weight a 6 cell nimh weight and this will slow times a little.
3) Who says you have to run a 2.5 motor? A 4.5 or 5.5 with 7.4v Lipo is fast enough for most tracks...a good driver will be always faster with 5.5 and Lipo than a new driver that tries to be faster on teh straights with 3.5 and slams into walls...they will eventually learn
10-02-2008, 10:40 AM
#24
Tech Adept
No, the point is with 7,4 volts (6 cell nimh or lipo) the cars are undriveable with the actual motors. Also, there will be an excessive wear and tear for this scale as said before. It’s probably why stock classes are so popular in USA, compared with modified, as lot of American users writes in this forum.
We had already embrace Lipo in stock class in National Championship (Portugal) and in modified we are following EFRA rules.
Of course we also have club races where everyone is free to use whatever. We don’t need to made a National Club Race Championship and leave the TC European rules.
We had already embrace Lipo in stock class in National Championship (Portugal) and in modified we are following EFRA rules.
Of course we also have club races where everyone is free to use whatever. We don’t need to made a National Club Race Championship and leave the TC European rules.
For actual racing 4 or 4,5 are enough but for going ballistic everyone should try 2,5.....and rebuild your car afterwards...LOL
my 2 cents..
10-02-2008, 12:26 PM
#25
Lipo's? Yes definitely! For 2009 already please!
But make sure the weight limit is sensible so we don't have to stick over 200g of lead to our cars or something like that!
On the motor limit (or power limit in some other way) I'm split. There are good reasons for both ways.
But make sure the weight limit is sensible so we don't have to stick over 200g of lead to our cars or something like that!
On the motor limit (or power limit in some other way) I'm split. There are good reasons for both ways.
10-02-2008, 12:51 PM
#26
Paul Lemieux won the 2008 ROAR Nats in Arkansas in the MOD TC class running a 4.5 BL. Some of the competition was running a 3.5 (and faster) and spent most of the time trying to keep the car straight. I asked Paul about it and he said that the infield drivability was more important than the brief straight away speed. He was slower on the straight, but his overall lap time were faster than everyone else.
A motor limit in MOD will open a Pandora's Box for cheating. Leave it open motor and make the best driver rise to the top. "Restrictor Plate" racing always fails. The Toyota 1995 WRC car is a history lesson in what motor restrictions creates.
A motor limit in MOD will open a Pandora's Box for cheating. Leave it open motor and make the best driver rise to the top. "Restrictor Plate" racing always fails. The Toyota 1995 WRC car is a history lesson in what motor restrictions creates.
10-02-2008, 01:55 PM
#27
Tech Adept
Here for the next year, we will aproved Lipos for a Pro-stock class, 10.5 limit motor, not in mod, with a limit weight of 1350g, is proposed.
I run with 7.4v/4.0T, and is fast, but not undriveable, at least for a National level driver, here the tracks are long, with long 1/8 straights, the diff in times are only 0.3s for lap, compare from 3.5T/5cell 4600, but for this times of laps, the temp is a problem, and wear of course, in 5 mins, the battery go to 60ºC (140ºf) and the motor to 120ºC (248ºF), yes, i can put more fans, go down in gear, ... but i don´t think in temp, i think this is a competition, the more important is the time for lap, ...
I say, yes for Lipo, but with caution, with a good rules.
Greetings, Luis C.
I run with 7.4v/4.0T, and is fast, but not undriveable, at least for a National level driver, here the tracks are long, with long 1/8 straights, the diff in times are only 0.3s for lap, compare from 3.5T/5cell 4600, but for this times of laps, the temp is a problem, and wear of course, in 5 mins, the battery go to 60ºC (140ºf) and the motor to 120ºC (248ºF), yes, i can put more fans, go down in gear, ... but i don´t think in temp, i think this is a competition, the more important is the time for lap, ...
I say, yes for Lipo, but with caution, with a good rules.
Greetings, Luis C.
10-02-2008, 02:49 PM
#29
Li-Po and brushless is a definate must.
10-02-2008, 03:58 PM
#30
Tech Apprentice
I think because of capacity of lipos and because of such high voltage , the only way to legalize lipos would be to set some wind limit ( like we had few years ago in TC in Erope 12 turn was the limit). And to extend duration of the race to ex. 7 min or 8 like in 12 class.
I think its quite resonable because most of us remember last TC WC in Italy.
In second round of A-main many drivers retired because of motor and chassis failures.
Thats why efra went to 5 cell's ... I personaly voted at EFRA AMG in 2006 to reduce number of cells to 5 (in name of Poland).
There is also a temperature issue when racing on lipos ,, more power = higher temperature of tires more wear , les grip etc.
Lipos are a good idea but only when racing with motor limit and longer race time.
I personaly think that 5,5 bl would be a good idea for a motor limit on 5 cells . ( carpet )
I think its quite resonable because most of us remember last TC WC in Italy.
In second round of A-main many drivers retired because of motor and chassis failures.
Thats why efra went to 5 cell's ... I personaly voted at EFRA AMG in 2006 to reduce number of cells to 5 (in name of Poland).
There is also a temperature issue when racing on lipos ,, more power = higher temperature of tires more wear , les grip etc.
Lipos are a good idea but only when racing with motor limit and longer race time.
I personaly think that 5,5 bl would be a good idea for a motor limit on 5 cells . ( carpet )