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Old 09-20-2008, 09:34 AM   #31
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I ran a shop/track back in the day before rebuildable stock motors. It was common to see cans popped open to have the coms cut, someone would always be using a stock motor with bearings instead of bushings, or drop a 19T armature into a 27T can.

7 cell batteries in stock dirt oval was another cheat I saw regularly when I first started racing 20+ years ago.

Only cheats I have seen recently are in a "stock" Slash class, changing tires/motors/eletronics.....I still beat 'em with my box stocker though .
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Old 09-20-2008, 01:27 PM   #32
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Everyone has too much of a conscience.

Win if you can, loose if you must, but always cheat.

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Old 09-22-2008, 09:35 AM   #33
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Cheaters Smeaters.... They all sucks!!!

Though we cannot eradicate cheaters, well we could at least minimise the chances of cheats.

I've always advocate teh box spec cars. Eg Tamiyas with everything in the box. This is to ensure fair play. Use spec 540 Johnson motors. difficult to comm or change brush but not imposibble.
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Old 09-22-2008, 08:23 PM   #34
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A good comment by Kevin_cbr




I am amazed at all the accusations flying on this thread. And to think, we thought we had drama at the North America TCS Nationals. I ran and finished 6th in the A main in what we call GT-2 class. Mostly TA05's, TB-02's and TB-03's. MY teamamtes finished, ninth, third and first also in the A main. We had "hand-out" motors and batteries. We ran the 540 Black Sport motor and 2400 LIPO batteries. In our mini (M-Chassis) class, they used silver cans and 2400 LIPO's. There was a lot of cries of cheating and that the winners of both classes cheated. Even an American who was not even at the race who has posted on this thread claimed "the cheaters won" regarding our Nationals. However, there cries were wrong. There was one driver who had a magnet in his pocket in the mini class who was trying to enhance the strength of his motor magnets under the tech table and was caught and disqualified. Now, the person who won mini was called a cheater and he just "had to have" an illegal motor. Well, there was no tire diameter rule and he ran the radilas that baloon and he stuffed the heck out of them with inserts. This gave him a larger tire diameter than those running the 60-D type A tires. Cheating ? Nope, but many accused him of cheating because too many people think that if someone beats you, he has to be cheating. In our GT-2 class, my team mate that won and is going to Japan was accused of using illegal motor drops on his motor when cleaning AFTER Q1 which he TQ'ed. So, they took away that motor, he put in his second motor (we are allowed to buy two for the weekend) and with many people watching another team mate putting in his motor (as he was busy putting in my motor), my team mate went out and ran the only 20 lap run in the GT-2 class to TQ Q2. Moral of this story, cheating is cheating only when there is proof. The guy with the magnet in his pocket and was caught was cheating. The two guys that won were accused of cheating but were not.

Now - here is what Tamiya America did for the spec motor classes (GT-1 was 10.5 brushless) to ensure no "enhacncements" outside the rules happened. All motors in GT-2 and Mini had to use the stock Tamiya wiring and bullet plugs. You went to tech and installed your motor in front of the tech people just before your race. Your motor had to stay above the table. After the race, you had to remove your motor at a second tech table in front of the tech crew. No spec motors ever left the tech area. On top of this, Tamiya dynoed brand new motors to make sure the rpm's were all within about 200 rpm and gave every driver in the A-Main a brand new motor to run your three A mains with. Now, to do this took about 6-8 people to watch both areas of tech to insure no one tampered with their motors. Perhaps TAC could learn from Tamiya America's tight motor control for our Nationals.

As a complete outsider, here are some observations having read this thread from the very first post.

First - The guy in buggy class who did not marshall. It seems there was a number of languages spoken at this event. We are fortunate not to have that problem in our Nationals. However, it is the Race Directors responsibility to have disqualified the driver immediaetly for not marshalling after A2. Calling him a "cheater" because he did not marshall is a joke. Did he understand the language the announcer used ? Did the race directors go to the driver shortly after the violation to tell him he was disqualified so he would then have to ran A3 to try to win ? No they did not. I read that the race directors tore his car down to check legality and did not return the car (in pieces) until after A3. So, you all want to take away his title becuase the Race Directors screwd up ? To me, the Malaysian driver who would not take his 2nd place awards was the poor sport. Face it, he finished second becuase the other driver drove better. Marshalling or not had nothng to do with him getting beat on the track.

The winner of the M-chassis class - Lots of cries that his motor "had to be illegal". There was "proof" as his comm was a red color, not shiny and burnt in the center. Then comes more "proof". Pictures of the illegal motors them selves ! But wait, one picture is blurred. Then the pictures appear again without the blurr. But that comm is not real red and is not burnt. So, which "proof" is now being used to call someone a cheater ? Humm, looks like somebody is pretty good with Adobe Photoshop or other graphic program. Now, based on other points and comments, it looks like there is more accusing and assuming someone was cheating raher then actual proof someone was cheating. For instance:

Was the person who supposedly had the "illegal motors" the faster car on the straight ? Someone posted to look at the videos of the actual race and that others were faster in a straight line than the "cheater". Well, was the guy with the claimed illegal motor the fastest on the straight ? He should have been.

It is assumed the cheater used a motor lathe to cut his comm. I saw a picture of the pit areas. Looks pretty open. How could someone cut a comm without others seeing or hearing this ? Was he hiding in the bathroom ? Could you take the motors away from the track at night ? Did he have some secret sound proof box he was using ?

Motor shavings in the "proof he was cheating pictures". Now, if a person is going to cheat and use a motor lathe on his motor, knowing the motors will be torn down after the race, you don't think he is going to heavily spray his motor to get the shavings out ? There was a lot of shavings in that motor, not a little. You can get a motor, even a sealed end bell motor a lot cleaner than what was seen in that picture.

Someone jokingly mentioned "fingerprints" but is was a good point. Since the pictures were posted to "prove" a motor was illegal, does the same person have a picture that shows the head and body of the Tamiya tech person who is holidign those motors ? If not, that could be me, holding the motors sitting in Southern Cailfornia while my friend adds "TAC 2008" to the picture using and computer graphics program.

I am not saying anyone did or did not cheat in the M-Chassis class. However, if people consider what the buggy class Champion did was "cheating", then I would question the thinking or motives of some of those claiming others cheated. Having just gone through my own team mate being called a cheater, fully knowing he was not, just becuase he was fast and won our National Championships, I do know it is frustrating to be called a cheater by others when they are wrong. So why, as some have asked, don't the cheaters "defend themselves" and post on this thread that they are not cheating ? Why should they ? Those that accuse them now of cheating are convinced they are and will only continue to call them a cheater so nothing will be gained. I personally would not post to defend myself to a bunch of people claiming I cheated just so they can accuse me more and directly. Would you ?

I hope that you guys can work together to improve next years TAC series. I am fortunate to travel to Hong Kong a few times a year and hope to participate in an HK series race some time just for the experience and to make new friends in what I like to think is a great HOBBY ! Yes, this is a hobby. Most of us racing Tamiya regardless of the country are racing for fun and sport, not to make a living being sponsored.
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Old 09-22-2008, 08:25 PM   #35
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The other side of the coin view on cheatings commented by Edison_C:


Wow! I see this thread is still buzzing with activities. I am just astounded at how long this thread can hold its spot there, although it has been demoted to page 2. But I suppose we all hate cheaters and we are even more disgusted by those who conspire with the cheaters. Is there a conspiracy here? Maybe we should have Stephen Spielberg make a movie out of this and have it titled “RC Conspiracy”? I bet it will be quite a hit, but we have to ask Mr. Spielberg to have a disclaimer and letter of indemnity from all that is involve. After all Mr. Spielberg will be portraying a true story and we would not want the good audiences all assembling in Malaysia waiting to give <censored> claiming against Mr. Spielberg, would we?

To answer a few questions or statement that was addressed to me. mitsubishi, is right in saying that “if there's no root, there's no tree or for every tree there's a root... for those cheaters who wants to win all time, just buy trophy for themselves and face the mirror...” , but you see I would like to win too(although I have not bought trophies for myself and look in the mirror), but I would not be stooping so low as to cheat in such obvious ways, although I suppose if you cheat there is always a way to be caught. It all depends on the inspectors, whether he is smart or just another bloke. In our case here, with the new photo evidences, I cannot understand why the inspectors did not just DQ that fellow? It is that obvious! The root are the cheaters, the tree are the inspectors, but roots grow from a seed, only when the environment is right, it will become a tree, if the environmentis not ideal, the seed with its young root, would just be a root and perish. From what I can recall, Park got the ticket to goto Japan although he is classified as 3rd as Perry went last year and Wu ChakMing went for so many years already. But I guess this is not why we are arguing our sock off. It the principle that we are fighting for here, it is for the benefit for all future racers/races and especially for TACs in the future.

We can definitely understand why one would like to cheat, but why did the inspectors let the cheaters off without a DQ or even a penalty? It is just so mind boggling to me! Is it because the cheaters will not be awarded a ticket to Japan so they can be let off? The other part that I cannot understand is how the organizers can just close one eye and let everything off like that!! The other thing that I cannot understand is how so many racers who participated in the event can just leave everything to a few of us here, writing our hands off and not at least have a little point of view towards these matters, may it be pro or against our views here? To be fair, Amat did contribute to this thread albeit in the wrong way. It is not a matter that concerns you I understand, because you are not the one that is ripped off of your title or position, but what would you do if its you? We should all come together and partition to Tamiya Japan to have them overturn the results. I am not trying to be a trouble maker here, we are trying to help Tamiya redeem itself from all racers worldwide as TAC is such an esteem event(Before 2008 that is), it will be a pity to see that the series would be tainted and dwindle because of its inconsistent ruling this year. I do not speak for all, but I can imagine that at least a few countries are more than a little upset and disgusted by these incidents.

So for Malaysian racers, how is the situation there with <censored> ? Remote control atmosphere? I can only imagine here that it will only get from bad to worse, especially with the new photo evidences that was presented by Sean S.. There are certain responsibilities that a organizer should be holding, but I suppose when you have carpet of that quality, all the organizer and his helpers can only have time and effort to help the ailing carpet, but not anything else. This is just B.S. that these carpets can be laid down for races in the first place. I <censored>

I would also like to personally thank Marvi for showing Amat that there is such an equipment in the RC world, maybe its because Amat is just so enclosed in his little house(OK, its just a figure of speech, nothing against people from HK), that he does not know there are so many things that are available to racers, not with the intention to cheat.

So I would have to agree with Wolf, lets all ring Tamiya and give them a piece of our mind. If not we can always make our point known here for them to address.

Cheerio
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Old 09-22-2008, 09:25 PM   #36
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Thankfully, this next cheat has seen it's last raceday. Prior to the dawn of NiMH batteries, NiCD batteries were at one point only supplied from Sanyo. Throughout decades of racing and many itterations of cells (from yellow SCRs to tan 2000s), all of the cells had a couple letters stamped on the negative end. The stamp was a date code, used to follow when the cell was produced, which is insignificant in of itself.

Then came the other cells. Some enterprising souls began racing non-standard SubC cells from other sources like power drills and wierd appliances. They would use new shrink wrap from the accepted Sanyo cell of that time period to disguise these "other" cells. The catch was ... there were no date codes stamped on these cells!

Besides being a mild cheat, some of these cells did NOT like being used in competitive R/C environments and subsequently exploded!
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Old 09-23-2008, 09:34 AM   #37
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I recently cheated by giving a fellow driver who doesn't drink caffeinated drinks a mountain dew. It did the trick. He couldn't keep his hands steady and I managed to beat him.

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Old 09-23-2008, 10:35 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Sharpe View Post
Thankfully, this next cheat has seen it's last raceday. Prior to the dawn of NiMH batteries, NiCD batteries were at one point only supplied from Sanyo. Throughout decades of racing and many itterations of cells (from yellow SCRs to tan 2000s), all of the cells had a couple letters stamped on the negative end. The stamp was a date code, used to follow when the cell was produced, which is insignificant in of itself.

Then came the other cells. Some enterprising souls began racing non-standard SubC cells from other sources like power drills and wierd appliances. They would use new shrink wrap from the accepted Sanyo cell of that time period to disguise these "other" cells. The catch was ... there were no date codes stamped on these cells!

Besides being a mild cheat, some of these cells did NOT like being used in competitive R/C environments and subsequently exploded!
I believe you may be talking about Willie Decker. He TQ'd and won all 3 legs of the 1/12 scale triple crown series in 1991. The series was (Cleveland, Winter Champs, and the Trinity race) He was running illegal batteries disguised in the Sanyo shrink wrap. He was a hech of a wheel but a big time cheat!
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Old 09-23-2008, 03:29 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedEnzo View Post
I heard by rubbing very powerful magnet to your motor can, will make your motor torquey. Is it true? Might it ruin your precious motor if you did it wrongly?

My idea of legally increasing your handout motor rpm is by correctly running it. I have tried a few trick but still from my best experience, the best option is still dipping the motor in a pail of water and running it with a 4 cell battery.

Occasionally take out the motor and check whether the brush is properly set to the comm. Clean it with motor cleaner and continue running the motor as before.
"Zapping" as it is called. Zapping the magnets on your sealed end bell motors with strong magnets to increase the strength of the motor magnets does work and is done often in the U.S. There are also ways to advance timing using strong magnets.

Fast and slow people will cheat. When slow people cheat, nobody cares because they are still behind them. The term "cheating" can also be subjective. If a person does something that the rules don't specifically say they can not do, is it cheating because it gives you an advantage or are you just smarter ? Look at the late Colin Chapman of Lotus. Ground effects is banned in the early '80's. So he builds a chassis within the chassis which, per the rules was legal but by all practical purpose was still ground effects. Yeah, it eventually got banned too.

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Old 09-24-2008, 12:03 AM   #40
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the sort of "cheating" i dislike the most isnt really cheating, but moreso an abuse of position to gain an advantage by either influencing rules directly or deliberately hiding or masking information so others cant make informed decisions...

then you've got the vested interest cheats.. ya know the kinds where someone has a decision to make and the outcome directly affects themselves, so the decision is chosen to specifically benefit them but not the other drivers etc.
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Old 09-24-2009, 12:30 AM   #41
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Yeah just like Renault F1 team being given a slap in the hand for a MAJOR Cheat compare to Liegate and Spy gate of McLaren....

Moral of story, there people do not have any Morale
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Old 09-24-2009, 08:53 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
About the only way to avoid cheating entirely would be to have hand out whole cars and not allow anyone other than the track officials handle the cars.

But even then... it would still be possible to cheat.

I have accidentally cheated before. I was racing in a strict stock mini-slider class and I did not know I wasn't allowed to change my battery and motor connectors and that I could only run a stock Losi 1100 mAh battery. I ran a 1400 mAh battery and I think I did have quite an advantage. I had no idea that they were so strict. The only minor complaint I really had was with the battery. At the time the Losi 100mAh battery was WAY over priced and there were much cheaper 1100 mAh batteries available.

If I ever have to intentionally cheat to win, they I will stop racing entirely. I could not look in the mirror after that.
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Old 09-24-2009, 09:17 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grease View Post
I use a 4.5 turn BL motor and an 11.1V lipo in 27 turn stock. It gives me a slight advantage over the other drivers. So far nobody has noticed
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Old 09-25-2009, 05:58 AM   #44
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What was that first rule in NASCAR racing? If you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin?
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Old 09-25-2009, 06:29 AM   #45
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is "team order" include in cheating issue??
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