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Old 06-20-2004, 03:17 PM   #616
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Tamiya should just make a TB-02 SS and then their wouldn't be this problem. Also happend because they make so many cars using alot of the same parts but make a few little changes and give it a new name.


How many different 04's are their? Their is a perfect example. Also the 03's they have at least 6 different ones. This makes it hard to police and also when you make a car that uses the same a arms but your not suppose to use it on another car taht they fit how is this right as well. The EVO3 and 02 use the same a arms and I think the 04's are also acceptable. Good thing I only run 2 TCS races a year. They cost me more money to run those two races than just racing 2 months or my regular touring car.
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Old 06-20-2004, 08:06 PM   #617
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Quote:
Originally posted by RC Driver Gary
It's too late for that already...
Gary...your just pissed because you have a great baseline set-up for your TB02

I feel bad, you seem to really have yourself heated over this. Truth is...that was the first rumor I heard about the leagality of the new arms. Nothing set in stone...yet.

But if you really want to get down to brass tacks...they should only allow the gearing available for the chassis. Now how freakin' boring would that car be in GT3 with the standard set?

I think we can agree that this is not a car that performs well if over powered. So from from a business perspective they are doing the correct thing by allowing these parts...otherwise this car is a shelf weapon for the TCS class. Until they release..say, a stiffer chassis, arms etc.

back at ya bear fan
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Old 06-20-2004, 08:59 PM   #618
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I couldn't disagree more strongly John. Firstly, I am not sold on my TB02 yet, the 04 hasn't been completely shelved quite yet. The rumors of that car's demise have been greatly exaggerated. The gearing I can see as being ok (I assume you are talking about allowing the 52T F201 spur) because the rules specifically state that any spur and any pinion may be used. BUT allowing something like an adjustble motor mount or modifying the motor mount, that I would have a problem with. Again, I must state that just because something "Can" be done doesn't mean that it "Should" be done.

Quote:
But if you really want to get down to brass tacks...they should only allow the gearing available for the chassis. Now how freakin' boring would that car be in GT3 with the standard set?
Well, then you really need to consider which chassis to use, wouldn't you? People don't like how the Evo 3 can strip ring gears, so they have gone to the 414 or the 415. How is this any different?

Quote:
So from from a business perspective they are doing the correct thing by allowing these parts...otherwise this car is a shelf weapon for the TCS class. Until they release..say, a stiffer chassis, arms etc.
The TT-01 has a flexible chassis/arms/driveshaft too. Because of this people don't use it for the TCS. What makes the TB-02 so damned special? If it's not a capeable chassis as is with the designed hop-ups, well that's just too bad, isn't it? Well, no, because this is turning into equal oppertunity racing that isn't the case, but that's how it should be though. I don't just disagree with using the new parts on the TB-02, but also on the 415, the Evo 3, the 414, and the TA-04. They are TB-Evo 4 Parts...

Quote:
How many different 04's are their? Their is a perfect example.
There's the TA-04 Pro, R, S, SS, TRF, Tuned...I think that's it. But those cars are all on the same platform, with the only major differences being hop ups included and the arms on the SS versus the rest.

The soap box is not getting put away on this one. There's a reason for RULE 17. For those who don't remember or care to ignore what it means, here it is:

17. If a driver finds a loophole within the rules, that exploitation will be deemed illegal.

Even more so, #12 states:
12. Any modification not called out specifically in these rules is not legal.

But what about #5:
5. Any Tamiya Hop-Op Option and spare part is allowed as long as it is used in the way it was designed, and on the vehicle it was designed for.

Say what you will of my motives, I love this series, I love what it represents, but I see the slipery slope forming. My defense is the truth and the facts. You can't argue with the facts...
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Old 06-20-2004, 10:52 PM   #619
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Quote:
Originally posted by RC Driver Gary
I couldn't disagree more strongly John. Firstly, I am not sold on my TB02 yet, the 04 hasn't been completely shelved quite yet. The rumors of that car's demise have been greatly exaggerated. The gearing I can see as being ok (I assume you are talking about allowing the 52T F201 spur) because the rules specifically state that any spur and any pinion may be used. BUT allowing something like an adjustble motor mount or modifying the motor mount, that I would have a problem with. Again, I must state that just because something "Can" be done doesn't mean that it "Should" be done.



Well, then you really need to consider which chassis to use, wouldn't you? People don't like how the Evo 3 can strip ring gears, so they have gone to the 414 or the 415. How is this any different?



The TT-01 has a flexible chassis/arms/driveshaft too. Because of this people don't use it for the TCS. What makes the TB-02 so damned special? If it's not a capeable chassis as is with the designed hop-ups, well that's just too bad, isn't it? Well, no, because this is turning into equal oppertunity racing that isn't the case, but that's how it should be though. I don't just disagree with using the new parts on the TB-02, but also on the 415, the Evo 3, the 414, and the TA-04. They are TB-Evo 4 Parts...



There's the TA-04 Pro, R, S, SS, TRF, Tuned...I think that's it. But those cars are all on the same platform, with the only major differences being hop ups included and the arms on the SS versus the rest.

The soap box is not getting put away on this one. There's a reason for RULE 17. For those who don't remember or care to ignore what it means, here it is:

17. If a driver finds a loophole within the rules, that exploitation will be deemed illegal.

Even more so, #12 states:
12. Any modification not called out specifically in these rules is not legal.

But what about #5:
5. Any Tamiya Hop-Op Option and spare part is allowed as long as it is used in the way it was designed, and on the vehicle it was designed for.

Say what you will of my motives, I love this series, I love what it represents, but I see the slipery slope forming. My defense is the truth and the facts. You can't argue with the facts...
ya know Gary..there are plenty of decafinated brands that taste just as good as the real thing You may want to consider swithching to the unleaded brands.

As for the "softening" of some of the rules...my guess is it's all about trying to drive sales of certain kits (can we agree that the 04 is a bit dated?) I can appreciate their position, it is after all a business 1st.

Truth be known, I could give a rats ass what the class or rules are. Just let me know & I'll show.

Finally, it can be very entertaining to wait for your replies on a post that may touch a nerve (nothing like a little gas to get the fire rollin')

"don't drive angry!..."
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Old 06-20-2004, 11:33 PM   #620
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John, you have Voicemail BTW, something seperate from this...

Why not just say "Screw The Rules" then, forget about tech all together, and as long as it might have at some time been a Tamiya Platform, well that's ok... No, there are rules for a reason, and right now they are a joke because they are not being inforced!!! Yes, the 04 is dated, but you know there is something to be said about the integrity of the series. Just becaue they've come out with an awesome replacement for the 414 in both the Evo 3 (soon to be 4) and the 415 yet have not stepped up to the plate with a tub chassis car, well that's just TFB as far as I am concerned. I mean even NASCAR kinda almost sorta sticks to thier rules (EIRI: Except in Rare instances), but this is getting rediculous. It's giving the locals more and more of an advantage because they get more time on track to experiement with these things on the actual surface, while folks who don't live in the area need to guess at what will or will not work. Why screw your clientle like that? Its getting to the point where I wonder what happened to the old TCS. Personally I had little problem with requiring Tamiya screws and hardware; Tamiya inserts, while more of a hassle because you'd need to cut open tires or run a tire tech, but didn't we do that with those crappy B2's (BTW John, I KNOW you have a lot more of those than I do ) You may ask why not just go back to Tamiya connectors too...you know, I wouldn't object to that. There have been rule changes made to make the US series similar to Japan; well Japan doesn't allow you to use other screws, and I believe you must still use the Tamiya Connectors.
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Old 06-22-2004, 03:26 PM   #621
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Quote:
Originally posted by RC Driver Gary
John, you have Voicemail BTW, something seperate from this...

Why not just say "Screw The Rules" then, forget about tech all together, and as long as it might have at some time been a Tamiya Platform, well that's ok... No, there are rules for a reason, and right now they are a joke because they are not being inforced!!! Yes, the 04 is dated, but you know there is something to be said about the integrity of the series. Just becaue they've come out with an awesome replacement for the 414 in both the Evo 3 (soon to be 4) and the 415 yet have not stepped up to the plate with a tub chassis car, well that's just TFB as far as I am concerned. I mean even NASCAR kinda almost sorta sticks to thier rules (EIRI: Except in Rare instances), but this is getting rediculous. It's giving the locals more and more of an advantage because they get more time on track to experiement with these things on the actual surface, while folks who don't live in the area need to guess at what will or will not work. Why screw your clientle like that? Its getting to the point where I wonder what happened to the old TCS. Personally I had little problem with requiring Tamiya screws and hardware; Tamiya inserts, while more of a hassle because you'd need to cut open tires or run a tire tech, but didn't we do that with those crappy B2's (BTW John, I KNOW you have a lot more of those than I do ) You may ask why not just go back to Tamiya connectors too...you know, I wouldn't object to that. There have been rule changes made to make the US series similar to Japan; well Japan doesn't allow you to use other screws, and I believe you must still use the Tamiya Connectors.
Gary, your have a PM
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Old 06-22-2004, 04:32 PM   #622
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I feel the rules should and probably will reflect the packaging of these new arms. If the packaging doesn't state it's for the TAO4 etc then you can't use them for the TAO4 even if it fits- that's always been the rule in the past. Now if Tamiya decides to include all of the compatible models on the packaging of these new parts then of coarse they are legal. Doesn't get any simpler than that right? Am I missing something after coming into the debate mid stream?
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Old 06-22-2004, 09:16 PM   #623
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I've actually been following this debate for quite some time. From what I can tell, the root of the debate comes directly from the side of the TB02 box.

Taken directly from the 58315 kit box:
"Compatible parts: TB Evolution III and TA04 option parts plus a wide range of racing tires."

Since Tamiya directly endorses the use of parts not specifically designed for the TB02, technically it is legal and not out of the spirit of the TCS rules. Another example of this, but one that seems to be much more black and white, is the use of the TL01 hingepin set on the M chassis cars. This is a legal hop-up for TCS even though the part is not sold for the M chassis. It states clearly on the package that it is only for the TL01 and FF chassis cars, but since the M and FF chassis share many parts, they are a direct fit. I think you have to ban the TL01 hingepins if you ban the SS arms for the TB02 even though neither give a performance advantage to their respective chassis (imo.)
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Old 06-22-2004, 10:20 PM   #624
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It's not a matter of whether there are performance gains or not, its this loosening of the rules I object to. When the rules were iron clad, there were a few people pushing the envelope on legallity, but now it's "kaddie bar the door" and if it feels good in the track, do it.
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Old 06-23-2004, 12:42 PM   #625
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Gary, I completely agree with you. The idea is to have a tightly ruled series that, in theory, rewards driving skill rather than modification creativity.

I don't really see that this is loosening the rules, though. They now are producing a car that was designed to work with parts from a completely different platform. From a business perspective, it's a good idea, since they only make one set of arms and it works with many platforms. It definitely makes some challenges for the TCS series, because it is harder to police the rules, but you have to respect the marketting decisions made by Tamiya Japan and adapt the racing series to suit changes in the product line. I think that maybe it would be a good idea to offer another spec class for more experienced racers, for those that want to participate in a drivers series. TL01 is not the right class for that, since it's supposed to be a rookie class. I like GT3 for this reason because there is a good amount of parity in the class. Maybe have a box stock class with only one allowed chassis or something like that. A Ferrari 360 Cup with only TA04 Pros and silver can motors would be pretty cool. Maybe I'll try and talk to Fred about this when i'm there this weekend.
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Old 06-23-2004, 12:53 PM   #626
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Quote:
Originally posted by psycho
Maybe have a box stock class with only one allowed chassis or something like that. A Ferrari 360 Cup with only TA04 Pros and silver can motors would be pretty cool. Maybe I'll try and talk to Fred about this when i'm there this weekend.
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Old 06-23-2004, 01:27 PM   #627
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I think GT2 and GT1 should be a little more open as they are the fast classes. The slower guys or those that just not as good of drivers can run TL01 or GT3. Also the TB-02's or )3 type cars really only have a chance in GT2 or GT1. The classes are dominated by 04's in GT2 and GT3.

Tamiya is smart in a way. Using the same arms to fit many kits save a ton of money on tooling so they don't have so much money going out when designing a new car plus the hobby shops can cut down a little on parts inventory and gives the shop more money for other things.
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Old 06-23-2004, 02:25 PM   #628
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Amen
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Old 06-23-2004, 07:37 PM   #629
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I like the idea of having a "rookie class" like the TL01 Spec. It's a great venue for kids and new racers to have the chance to compete in a regional event, and not have to spend thousands of dollars to be competitive. I would be against changing the rules on that class. If anything, I think drivers should be required to demonstrate their lack of experience to be able to participate, or at least prohibit them from racing another class. It's so easy to sandbag and win that class if you are a moderately experienced racer and unfortunately, I have seen it done before. Actually, I'm not sure what the satisfaction is to beat a bunch of 7 year old kids and first time racers when you have been racing for a couple years, but I guess there must be some attraction to it since people continue to be allowed to race the class that shouldn't be.
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Old 06-24-2004, 09:00 AM   #630
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actually tamiya is hoping for tl01 rookie class replaced by tt01 which actually dissapointed me. the first it came out i instantly bought it. it was stable out of the box but the shaft kept rattling at high speed
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