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Old 12-25-2003, 11:01 AM   #226
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Because the header cards are printed in advance, I beleive the allowable hop ups for the TB-02 are the ones listed on Tamiya's official parts list and Spare parts & hop-up options list. In that list is lists TA04 and EVO III parts by name. Here is the link to that list

http://www.tamiyausa.com/pdf/58310_parts.pdf
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Old 12-25-2003, 01:08 PM   #227
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Quote:
Originally posted by RC Driver Gary
I'll argue that point:

5. Any Tamiya Hop-Up Option and spare part is allowed as long as it is used in the way it was designed, and on the vehicle it was designed for.

Furthermore:

17. If a driver finds a loophole within the rules, that exploitation will be deemed illegal.

Yes, these chassis use the same A-Arms, but if the header does not list these other chassis, this should be illegal! I remember a time when someone tried using a Tamiya heatsink on a car and he was questioned about the legality because the guys in tech did not think the particular chassis was listed as an "appropriate" or Legal chassis. I'm sorry guys, but IMHO, these arms should only be legal on the 04. Besides, with the 414 and the Evo 3, can't you shim the arms forward to accomplish the same thing as with the SS arms? By the same example, the custom "M04M" chassis that guys were coming up with should have been legal because the parts were available to do this and it fit, correct? But that car was deemed illegal until there is now an Official M04M. Unless the header states the Evo, 414, and TB-02, the way the rules are written they shouldn't be allowed.
OK! whatever. I'm just glad you don't run Tamiya and the one who does says it's Legal.
So, interpret the rules however you want. Merry X-mas!
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Old 12-25-2003, 02:00 PM   #228
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Hey Gary,
You got some good points there, but Izzy did get the green light for the arms from the TCS race director. Are they legal, well according to the race director they are, but to the rules they aren't. But maybe we are in a wait and see mode. By the way this me George, not Rod replying opps
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Old 12-25-2003, 02:45 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally posted by rtypec
Hey Gary,
You got some good points there, but Izzy did get the green light for the arms from the TCS race director. Are they legal, well according to the race director they are, but to the rules they aren't. But maybe we are in a wait and see mode. By the way this me George, not Rod replying opps
Thanks for the back-up George. Merry Xmas to you and Rodzilla!
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Old 12-25-2003, 10:35 PM   #230
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Quote:
I'm just glad you don't run Tamiya
Because my points make sense and the arms, the way the rules are currently written, should be deemed illegal? I have no doubts those who have run them to this point have gotten the Ok From Fred, so I'm not accusing anyone of doing anything wrong. I just think the wrong call was made.

I also looked up the .PDF on the Evo 3, and I'm sorry but the 04ss arms are not listed as a hop up option. Again, I don't see how this is a legal hop up the way the rules are stated. And just so there's no doubt, I don't think the rules should be re-written. I think having the 04ss, the 03s and 03rs as the only short wheelbase chassis are just fine. Granted...I own an 04ss, so my opinion is only slightly biased
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Old 12-25-2003, 10:39 PM   #231
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I also wanted to wish a merry christmas to all the TCS-ers out there, John, Rod, George, Troy, Kevin, Dan, larry, Larry O from Seattle, Chris, Cliff, Fred, Gary D, Lee, Brian, Dave, Tom Hibler JR and Sr, Tom K, Doc, Steevie W, Mike, Chris W, Mark R, and all the others out there that I get to bang fenders with throughout the year. May all your gifts say TRF on them somewhere...or at least be able to have parts on it that say TRF
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Old 12-26-2003, 12:49 PM   #232
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Good discussion regarding the approved hop up parts. I'd like to comment because I feel it's important. The club I've started is based on the TCS program and rules. I made that choice because I enjoy Tamiya products and because of the "standardization" that TCS offers.
Both Izzy and Gary are right and this really isn't a major issue....NOW. But here's the problem. Unlike you lucky guy's who have direct access to Tamiya and to Fred, I have to base our Tech system on what I read in the rules/info. If Izzy were to show up at a TCS event here, I wouldn't allow his car to race. Why...because according to the rules/info that the rest of us have access to , the hop up in question isn't legal.
The TCS system is as good as it is because it adheres to a strict set of car standards. In the real world, us race directors can't be calling Tamiya looking for Fred to answer Tech questions while we have an event going on.
Think of the Bitching that would be going on if during the Tamiya Nats, Izzy was allowed to run that hop up and others didn't even know about it. If Fred and Tamiya are going to allow a NEW hop up in a TCS race, then they owe it to everybody else to make a note of it ASAP in the rules and/or chassis hop up section of the website.
Hope nobody takes offense because none was meant. I surely envy you guys who race at Tamiya. Izzy, thanks for letting us know about the SS conversion.I'll look forward to trying it out. Cheers
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Old 12-26-2003, 01:11 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally posted by Evoracer
Izzy, thanks for letting us know about the SS conversion.I'll look forward to trying it out. Cheers
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Old 12-26-2003, 01:17 PM   #234
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I tried to do something once that was put under a "Rule 17" ruling. In 2000, I was getting my F103 ready to run at the nationals. I got the bright idea to use a split pack in the car. By that I mean I used a 3x3 saddle pack, placed 3 cells in the origional battery position, but I placed the other three inline in front of the front pivot block. This resulted in a car with more steering since more weight was placed up front, and it transitioned a heck of a lot faster with less weight placed away from the centerline of the chassis. I never had a chance to get laptimes with this setup versus the standard placement, but I was told this was not legal. It was deemed I was reengineering the chassis, eventhough nothing was cut, trimmed, removed, added, or redesigned. All I did was relocate the battery. I see running the SS arms as a similar thing. You use the arms to relocate more weight over the rear arms. But, unlike my mod, this required the use of additional parts. Besides, keeping the 04 as the only SS gives the car more uniqueness.
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Old 12-26-2003, 01:27 PM   #235
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Quote:
Originally posted by Evoracer
Izzy, thanks for letting us know about the SS conversion.I'll look forward to trying it out. Cheers
No problem Evoracer!

I for one was not sure if it was legal or not only because the car is so new and no one has really tried the combination before. But does it make sense to make it legal. I think so regardless what had Fred said otherwise. TA04 Suspenison parts and option parts are shared within the EVO 3, Surikarn, 414M, and now the TB-02... which includes the SS arms. There is no reason not to make it legal just because it is not printed in some parts list or packaging.
With the revolution of good ol' RCtech we are able to communicate things faster than some could blink. From new technology to new news. Even people will say something like the TC4 is coming out and Barry B. would be scratching his head, how come he has not heared of this before. I think it is a legit hop-up and I'm sure everyone else will catch up with it.
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Old 12-26-2003, 01:36 PM   #236
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Gary,
I didn't see where there were any mods necessary to install the SS arms?? The number of parts it takes to install them is really unimportant..IF...those parts are deemed legitimate hop up options and you aren't modifying the chassis to fit them.

As for the batteries in your F103....welllllll...that surely was unique but I think if it was me....I would have ruled it illegal also. The folks who tech really have a tough job. Some mods are blatantly wrong....and some you have to judge based on the "the ends justifies the means" theory. The "purpose" and effect of your mod was basically the same as what would have been GAINED by performing some other mod to the battery area. I emphasized the word GAIN for a reason. Remember folks...half the fun of this TCS system is that everybody has the oppurtunity to race with similar equipment. Developing as a driver becomes primary. Lets keep it that way and leave the loopholes to Lawyers!!
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Old 12-26-2003, 01:37 PM   #237
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Quote:
Originally posted by RC Driver Gary
I tried to do something once that was put under a "Rule 17" ruling. In 2000, I was getting my F103 ready to run at the nationals. I got the bright idea to use a split pack in the car. By that I mean I used a 3x3 saddle pack, placed 3 cells in the origional battery position, but I placed the other three inline in front of the front pivot block. This resulted in a car with more steering since more weight was placed up front, and it transitioned a heck of a lot faster with less weight placed away from the centerline of the chassis. I never had a chance to get laptimes with this setup versus the standard placement, but I was told this was not legal. It was deemed I was reengineering the chassis, eventhough nothing was cut, trimmed, removed, added, or redesigned. All I did was relocate the battery. I see running the SS arms as a similar thing. You use the arms to relocate more weight over the rear arms. But, unlike my mod, this required the use of additional parts. Besides, keeping the 04 as the only SS gives the car more uniqueness.
I don't see that being the same as your example at all! Tamiya was right, you did change your chassis layout. Tamiya should not bother designing the battery tray within the car if people can just place them wherever they want. The SS arms are being use as it was meant to be which is 'as suspension arms for the car(s) it was designed for.'
I think there can be different ways of interpreting the rules just like any other, but the bottom line is the man who makes the rules says good to go....and it made sense for it to be 'good to go!'
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Old 12-26-2003, 01:39 PM   #238
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Evoracer!

Tamiya collector aye!
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Old 12-26-2003, 01:44 PM   #239
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To the max , Izzy !! Like the sig say's "I'm broke but I have my toy's !!! You collect??

Wow, you made me think so I counted them. Currently 17 complete car kits and 8 collectible bodies NIB
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Old 12-26-2003, 01:53 PM   #240
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I didn't say there was anything modifcations needed to install the SS arms. AS far as how my F103 mod and the SS arms on a car other then the 04 are similar, IMHO, they both fall under "Rule 17" as far as I can tell. The rules don't specifically say you can, and they're not listed as OP parts for any car besides the 04. My other contension here is that the Evo3 and the TB-02 were both released AFTER the SS. If they were supposed to be legal hop up parts, then why weren't they listed in the OP parts for the cars in the manuals themselves? Tamiya uses the 04 arms so they don't need to re-tool new arms. And again, with the 414 and the Evo, can't you shimm the arms forward to accomplish the same thing?
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