Lipo confusion
08-10-2008, 01:59 PM
#31
What I love is - I get beat up cause I want to see companies build products that can go HEAD TO HEAD with each other - and the DRIVER's CAN SETTLE who's the better driver...NOT the DRIVER with the BETTER Equip.
Yet, at the same time I have guys tell me stuff like "Well, the SNOWBIRDS or the IIC or the Reedy ROC" does this or that.. (Which are NOT Roar Sanctioned Events...yet some of THE BIGGEST and MOST ATTENDED Races in the WORLD)
And THOSE races do use SPECIFIC
TIRES
MOTORS
and I won't be suprised to see BATTERIES included on that list for '09.
If companies built products that could compete HEAD to HEAD, "Spec" SINGLE product type races wouldn't NEED to happen...
Yet, at the same time I have guys tell me stuff like "Well, the SNOWBIRDS or the IIC or the Reedy ROC" does this or that.. (Which are NOT Roar Sanctioned Events...yet some of THE BIGGEST and MOST ATTENDED Races in the WORLD)
And THOSE races do use SPECIFIC
TIRES
MOTORS
and I won't be suprised to see BATTERIES included on that list for '09.
If companies built products that could compete HEAD to HEAD, "Spec" SINGLE product type races wouldn't NEED to happen...
Our Lipo supplier would not really know how to make Lipos like what is currently available and I really don't see why we should spend time and effort to try and go backwards.
As an organiser you have the choice to not allow packs you feel are not well suited for your style of racing and racer. I don't see why you need to get on the message boards and make SMC look like were screwing things up when all were trying to do is sell high quality packs with real specs.
08-10-2008, 02:04 PM
#32
After dealing with lipos for a few years, I've come up with a few guidelines.
Look at the discharge graph for a certain type of battery if it's available.
Find the ampdraw of your setup and look for a battery that will supply that amount of current constantly for a time you find comfortable.
mAh is more important than a C rating. Example: a 5200mah battery that can supply 20C constantly is better than a battery that's 3200mah that can supply 30C
Look at the discharge graph for a certain type of battery if it's available.
Find the ampdraw of your setup and look for a battery that will supply that amount of current constantly for a time you find comfortable.
mAh is more important than a C rating. Example: a 5200mah battery that can supply 20C constantly is better than a battery that's 3200mah that can supply 30C
This is exactly why I started this thread. It's to let racers better understand what makes a difference when it comes to Lipos as it amazed me to see some racers buying lower capacity packs thinking that they would have the same power as higher capacity packs.
08-10-2008, 02:49 PM
#33
I don't see why you need to get on the message boards and make SMC look like were screwing things up when all were trying to do is sell high quality packs with real specs.
IMHO SMC has created a lot of that CONFUSION
In part by saying "Lipos will not ever be used in COMPETITION Racing"
and in part by a statement that basically said "SMC will either KILL LIPO RACING or DOMINATE it"
I'd go back and copy and paste your words, but the RCTech board had a crash right about then - and those statements are no longer viewable.
...FIND ME a post that said you don't have the RIGHT to build your product and SELL IT, and that I said you are SCREWING things up... (I didn't say that I do or do not feel that way...) But I've seen more threads w/ SMC guys BASHING "The Other Guys" than I have seen the OTHER GUYS Bashing SMC.
again, IMHO you are trying to sell just "HIGH QUALITY" but also "HIGHER PERFORMANCE" than anyone else in the industry.
For TOP LEVEL Racers, I think that is great...but I think over a long term in may ways and in many cases that does NOT help the lower level racers....a lot of which race on a very tight budget, and at a local level.
Local tracks get caught up in ROAR RULES - LOCAL RULES - What "Travelling" Racers want, what LOCAL racers want...
Just look at several of the guys from OVAL TRACKS on the other board - who are SO Confused about how to approach LIPOS.
08-10-2008, 02:58 PM
#34
Just because we knew that Lipos would not all be the same and would make competitive racing not be any easier doesn't mean that were trying to kill the hobby. We could easily upgrade our packs but we choose not to unless we see a need for it.
Just because we did our homework when it comes to Lipos doesn't mean that were creating confusion.
Anyway were all allowed to have our opinions and I know that you want to keep everything equal but infortunately this won't happen unless you limit your series to a single pack and motor.
Just because we did our homework when it comes to Lipos doesn't mean that were creating confusion.
Anyway were all allowed to have our opinions and I know that you want to keep everything equal but infortunately this won't happen unless you limit your series to a single pack and motor.
08-10-2008, 03:03 PM
#35
Tech Fanatic
You are right....there is a lot of confusion on the other forums. They can't decide whether to run the 3400 or the 3600 since the 3200 was discontinued. They are also confused about why some people are so against our proposal to introduce a 3200 and keep it for at least two years unchanged to help stabilize the market. Read the posts. YOU are in the minority. Quit trying to make us out as being bad for the industry.
08-10-2008, 03:05 PM
#36
Wow, I've stayed out of several of the LIPO and SMC related threads...but this one was titled LIPO CONFUSION
IMHO SMC has created a lot of that CONFUSION
In part by saying "Lipos will not ever be used in COMPETITION Racing"
and in part by a statement that basically said "SMC will either KILL LIPO RACING or DOMINATE it"
I'd go back and copy and paste your words, but the RCTech board had a crash right about then - and those statements are no longer viewable.
...FIND ME a post that said you don't have the RIGHT to build your product and SELL IT, and that I said you are SCREWING things up... (I didn't say that I do or do not feel that way...) But I've seen more threads w/ SMC guys BASHING "The Other Guys" than I have seen the OTHER GUYS Bashing SMC.
again, IMHO you are trying to sell just "HIGH QUALITY" but also "HIGHER PERFORMANCE" than anyone else in the industry.
For TOP LEVEL Racers, I think that is great...but I think over a long term in may ways and in many cases that does NOT help the lower level racers....a lot of which race on a very tight budget, and at a local level.
Local tracks get caught up in ROAR RULES - LOCAL RULES - What "Travelling" Racers want, what LOCAL racers want...
Just look at several of the guys from OVAL TRACKS on the other board - who are SO Confused about how to approach LIPOS.
IMHO SMC has created a lot of that CONFUSION
In part by saying "Lipos will not ever be used in COMPETITION Racing"
and in part by a statement that basically said "SMC will either KILL LIPO RACING or DOMINATE it"
I'd go back and copy and paste your words, but the RCTech board had a crash right about then - and those statements are no longer viewable.
...FIND ME a post that said you don't have the RIGHT to build your product and SELL IT, and that I said you are SCREWING things up... (I didn't say that I do or do not feel that way...) But I've seen more threads w/ SMC guys BASHING "The Other Guys" than I have seen the OTHER GUYS Bashing SMC.
again, IMHO you are trying to sell just "HIGH QUALITY" but also "HIGHER PERFORMANCE" than anyone else in the industry.
For TOP LEVEL Racers, I think that is great...but I think over a long term in may ways and in many cases that does NOT help the lower level racers....a lot of which race on a very tight budget, and at a local level.
Local tracks get caught up in ROAR RULES - LOCAL RULES - What "Travelling" Racers want, what LOCAL racers want...
Just look at several of the guys from OVAL TRACKS on the other board - who are SO Confused about how to approach LIPOS.
08-10-2008, 03:08 PM
#37
...MY series is another misconception several people have as to how and what I'm about.
My series and series rules are solid, and I'm not worried about them.
However, when we put the 21.5 and 17.5 classes together, we did so with OTHERS. The now defunct ARCOR Organization was one. Plus, there were other tracks and clubs that adopted these same guideline in an effort to try to bring OVAL racing together in many regions. (Which is why you've seen some opposition on the other board...the majority of those are NOT SWT drivers, but guys from all over the country who also set their rules similar to ours)
YOU are in the battery business - catering to ALL r/c. Not just OVAL, Not just CARS...you have many products, for many markets.
99.9% of MY interest involves OVAL RACING, and OVAL RACING and OVAL RACERS have pretty much become a RENEGADE franchise of R/C racing as a whole.
My series and series rules are solid, and I'm not worried about them.
However, when we put the 21.5 and 17.5 classes together, we did so with OTHERS. The now defunct ARCOR Organization was one. Plus, there were other tracks and clubs that adopted these same guideline in an effort to try to bring OVAL racing together in many regions. (Which is why you've seen some opposition on the other board...the majority of those are NOT SWT drivers, but guys from all over the country who also set their rules similar to ours)
YOU are in the battery business - catering to ALL r/c. Not just OVAL, Not just CARS...you have many products, for many markets.
99.9% of MY interest involves OVAL RACING, and OVAL RACING and OVAL RACERS have pretty much become a RENEGADE franchise of R/C racing as a whole.
08-10-2008, 03:14 PM
#38
Exactly since you have your own race series just make the rules that works for you and your racers. If you feel our packs are to good then you can ban them.
SMC has been part of the racing scene for many years. We give back to this hobby by sponsoring some races. Race organisers and organisations can always contact us and work with us on special packs or requirements. At the moment the guidlines set by ROAR is what we follow and all our packs are approved by them.
SMC has been part of the racing scene for many years. We give back to this hobby by sponsoring some races. Race organisers and organisations can always contact us and work with us on special packs or requirements. At the moment the guidlines set by ROAR is what we follow and all our packs are approved by them.
08-10-2008, 03:34 PM
#39
Since the dawn of RC oval racers have had to try and make something work from the rest of the RC world. I started out racing oval. We had no oval cars so we ran the old gold tub RC10. Nothing has really changed since. Pan cars are just offset versions of road course cars. Dirt cars use offroad parts. And motors and batteries are all developed for the onroad and offroad markets. All you can do is CHOOSE which products work for you and go with it.
08-10-2008, 03:53 PM
#40
Joe, I don't understand your gripe with SMC. Would you be more open to the 3200 pack if they would have marked it as a 20C pack? I'm not being a smartass, I just don't understand. If you don't think it's good for your series, then do as Danny said and ban it. It's that simple.
I for one am glad that I can get a pack off of the shelf that hasn't self discharged, won't blow a cell on the first cycle, lives up to its posted numbers, and runs like a raped ape. Our local club has adopted the SMC 3200 to replace the Orion 3200 and will continue to run it as long as it's available.
Thanks Danny and Jack for the quality race packs!
I for one am glad that I can get a pack off of the shelf that hasn't self discharged, won't blow a cell on the first cycle, lives up to its posted numbers, and runs like a raped ape. Our local club has adopted the SMC 3200 to replace the Orion 3200 and will continue to run it as long as it's available.
Thanks Danny and Jack for the quality race packs!
08-10-2008, 04:07 PM
#41
Tech Fanatic
What I am a little confused about is why it is OK to buy an Orion 3400 or 3600 since they discontinued the 3200, but it is not OK to buy an SMC 3200. If you are going to have to buy new packs anyway, what is the big deal?
I have been in the sport since 1984. All I ever ran was oval. I have never run anything but oval. I am very aware of this market and have been for years. Are you aware that people are zapping the Orion packs and getting better performance? They buy some packs, zap them, run them a couple times, ruin them, then buy more. The SMC pack is destroyed when it gets zapped. Has anyone brought this to your attention? If not, you are probably having to run against these guys. And you think OUR battery is an unfair advantage?
I have been in the sport since 1984. All I ever ran was oval. I have never run anything but oval. I am very aware of this market and have been for years. Are you aware that people are zapping the Orion packs and getting better performance? They buy some packs, zap them, run them a couple times, ruin them, then buy more. The SMC pack is destroyed when it gets zapped. Has anyone brought this to your attention? If not, you are probably having to run against these guys. And you think OUR battery is an unfair advantage?
08-10-2008, 04:17 PM
#42
uh joe you seem to be the only guy who thinks everyone needs to make everything the same?
read the above posts
JOE i'm affraid i have it right! at least this time.
read the above posts
JOE i'm affraid i have it right! at least this time.
08-10-2008, 04:27 PM
#43
EDITED!
...here we go again - YOU GUYS are the ones making a BIG DEAL out of it...I haven't.
As far as the above quote - my point is more for the guys who DON'T have to buy new packs - cause they DIDN'T abuse their 3200's, and have packs that will and/or could provide them with another YEAR or TWO of perfectly GOOD service...but will NOT compete against the NEW packs.
You guys always go back towards the UPPER classes - those guys will RUN, KILL, RUIN what ever equipment is needed to WIN...but that always seems to be too many peoples focus.
I DON'T care what THEY run - they are NOT the focus.
I know what some people ARE and HAVE tried to do w/ the ORIONS.
...and two more things that YOU GUYS have put in MY MOUTH - that I haven't said...
GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT - I've never said EITHER of those things...
jdearhart - NOTHING I've said ever said it was directly related to OUR series...I think MOST of the "SPEC" Brushless OVAL World will most likely switch to the SMC. I have said NOTHING Negative to that other than it OBSOLETES yet ANOTHER Perfectly Good Battery guys already OWN. Agree or disagree, I have no problems with OTHER Opinions (Unlike it appears people think I can't have one)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
NOTE: I have NO Problem expressing MY opinions about Products, Rules, Classes and Organizations. I use to stay quiet about them - and saw too many things I didn't like...
Everybody always says 'Put Up....or Shut Up...' for the past 15 years - I've PUT UP.
Danny/SMC - we've debated over things in the past, sometimes fairly heated. You always debate FAIRLY, and I try to give you the same respect.
Jack - I wish I could say the same for you. We've had a few debates over the years...and it seems they always get you to do a personal attack.
Bill Sell - same goes there for you. It's ok for you to TRASH someone elses products (THAT You haven't run) yet you can run YOUR mouth like it's GOSPEL. Not usually a good debater there.
SOME People TAKE this stuff personal - I have THICK SKIN and don't. It's like ANY and ALL Politics - debates, discussion, questions, answers, etc. Someplace a compromise is found in the MIDDLE
If you are going to have to buy new packs anyway, what is the big deal?
As far as the above quote - my point is more for the guys who DON'T have to buy new packs - cause they DIDN'T abuse their 3200's, and have packs that will and/or could provide them with another YEAR or TWO of perfectly GOOD service...but will NOT compete against the NEW packs.
You guys always go back towards the UPPER classes - those guys will RUN, KILL, RUIN what ever equipment is needed to WIN...but that always seems to be too many peoples focus.
I DON'T care what THEY run - they are NOT the focus.
I know what some people ARE and HAVE tried to do w/ the ORIONS.
...and two more things that YOU GUYS have put in MY MOUTH - that I haven't said...
it is OK to buy an Orion 3400 or 3600 since they discontinued the 3200
uh joe you seem to be the only guy who thinks everyone needs to make everything the same?
jdearhart - NOTHING I've said ever said it was directly related to OUR series...I think MOST of the "SPEC" Brushless OVAL World will most likely switch to the SMC. I have said NOTHING Negative to that other than it OBSOLETES yet ANOTHER Perfectly Good Battery guys already OWN. Agree or disagree, I have no problems with OTHER Opinions (Unlike it appears people think I can't have one)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
NOTE: I have NO Problem expressing MY opinions about Products, Rules, Classes and Organizations. I use to stay quiet about them - and saw too many things I didn't like...
Everybody always says 'Put Up....or Shut Up...' for the past 15 years - I've PUT UP.
Danny/SMC - we've debated over things in the past, sometimes fairly heated. You always debate FAIRLY, and I try to give you the same respect.
Jack - I wish I could say the same for you. We've had a few debates over the years...and it seems they always get you to do a personal attack.
Bill Sell - same goes there for you. It's ok for you to TRASH someone elses products (THAT You haven't run) yet you can run YOUR mouth like it's GOSPEL. Not usually a good debater there.
SOME People TAKE this stuff personal - I have THICK SKIN and don't. It's like ANY and ALL Politics - debates, discussion, questions, answers, etc. Someplace a compromise is found in the MIDDLE
Last edited by SWTour; 08-10-2008 at 04:47 PM. Reason: EDIT: Added more!
08-10-2008, 04:44 PM
#45
Tech Champion
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Now from a hobbyists viewpoint, I view Lipo as a weekend racers answer to
making it easy to run and save $$ on battery packs and accessories.
Lipo is new to me so bare with me... NIMH.. 2400-3200-3500-3800-4200-4500-4600 You get the idea.. There was enough info from SMC-Promatcher-Trinity/etc out there so I felt I had a good idea about how to use and maintain them. Chargers/dischargers/etc everyone had them and again I had a good understanding how to use them. The ROAR legal battery list is what I went by because I believe they did the homework so I didn't have to.
Now Lipo, it seems there are a bunch of companies making them now in all different sizes and ratings that are not the same. It seems that Lipos (3200 for example ) packs are different from vendor to vendor so I look to ROAR to help me out. So when I race and use a LIPO battery the limit/specs/etc are all the same for everyone.
Now I am taking a step back and re-visiting the LIPO information that is in here. I find some RC Mags seem to favor certain vendors and give a very bias opinion that is unfair to its readers.
making it easy to run and save $$ on battery packs and accessories.
Lipo is new to me so bare with me... NIMH.. 2400-3200-3500-3800-4200-4500-4600 You get the idea.. There was enough info from SMC-Promatcher-Trinity/etc out there so I felt I had a good idea about how to use and maintain them. Chargers/dischargers/etc everyone had them and again I had a good understanding how to use them. The ROAR legal battery list is what I went by because I believe they did the homework so I didn't have to.
Now Lipo, it seems there are a bunch of companies making them now in all different sizes and ratings that are not the same. It seems that Lipos (3200 for example ) packs are different from vendor to vendor so I look to ROAR to help me out. So when I race and use a LIPO battery the limit/specs/etc are all the same for everyone.
Now I am taking a step back and re-visiting the LIPO information that is in here. I find some RC Mags seem to favor certain vendors and give a very bias opinion that is unfair to its readers.