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Old 08-28-2003, 02:03 PM   #46
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Part of the fun of being in a hobby like this one is exploring new techologies and how we can use them to have fun. Lithium Poly cells weren't designed for R/C Racing, but just look at how we can turn them into fun and games! Just like the Sub-C cell market; for years, the market was/has been driven by the power tool (and other) industries, and yet here we are drooling every time they jump a couple hundred mAH.

I don't think new technologies will put hobby shops out of business at all. You could argue that if a shop sells 2 Li-Poly batteries to all of its racing customers rather than 4-6 matched sub-C packs, it is losing money. But it remains to be seen how well the batteries will hold up under the rigors of racing, and I'd wager that the "fast" guys (and/or the ones who spend the proverbial "cubic dollars" on the hobby) will still be back for new packs every season.

Same goes for brushless motors. Maybe they'll sell fewer motors, but the guys that have them can run three times as long, so they'll break three times as many parts. Maybe these new technologies will actually be a boon to hobby shops after all.

As for motor tuners and battery matchers, that remains to be seen. The more resourceful ones will turn to other products, and use their established good name to launch other lines. Plus, I think brushed motors and sub-C cells still have many years of life in them -- 2 to 3 years at the absolute least. And it's quite possible that other new technologies will emerge to take their place and give us more things to focus our tuning energies on.

DerekB, thanks for the informative article. It took me awhile to track down that issue since I just buy them all at newsstands. Maybe I'll stop by and harass you guys at the Hobby Expo (if you're there) about getting a subscription, since I never got the t-shirt I ordered on Xtreme's website nearly 2 years ago! I saw you there last year but every time I walked by, you were on your cell phone. Go figure! haha
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Old 08-28-2003, 03:01 PM   #47
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When you said "thats why the theory of evolution makes so much sense"this explains your views of things.Ease of use is not there for the racer types.I am an avid E-flight guy and for that purpose I see viability.Not for the racer,in which I am also.For radios and reciever packs,ok.But the way these things have to be wired for the battery to be able to put out the apms for rc cars,I seriously doubt its use anytime soon let alone ever.Maybe I will be proven wrong.Are you affiliated with an rc mag?I am tired of rc magazine guys spewing useless info.Thats why I dont subscribe to any mags anymore.The stuff they write alot of times is motivated by the need to please manufactures which are thier advertising clients.
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Old 08-28-2003, 03:23 PM   #48
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Originally posted by racenut123
When you said "thats why the theory of evolution makes so much sense"this explains your views of things.Ease of use is not there for the racer types.I am an avid E-flight guy and for that purpose I see viability.Not for the racer,in which I am also.For radios and reciever packs,ok.But the way these things have to be wired for the battery to be able to put out the apms for rc cars,I seriously doubt its use anytime soon let alone ever.Maybe I will be proven wrong.Are you affiliated with an rc mag?I am tired of rc magazine guys spewing useless info.Thats why I dont subscribe to any mags anymore.The stuff they write alot of times is motivated by the need to please manufactures which are thier advertising clients.
I don't get what you point is. I write for XRC yes, in fact, I'm the Excutive Editor. Why do you see these cells viable to planes and not cars? I ran these cells under high amp draw and tehy held up well. Truth is, all batteries have a fixed life and racers will go through batteries faster no matter what. The fact that I published a technology that nobody currently uses, how does this cater to or please the manufacturers? I don't get it. I see you use a computer so is it safe to say you threw out your type-writer and word processor in the past. My therory of evolution says I embrace cutting edge technology, we have to or we will stay in the same place as we are. Remember with a 66mhz computer was the fastest? When print film was the king. Times change and it takes time. But I'm just a publisher of trash and only cater to the man.

I have the inspiration for my next editorial...thank you!!


To answer the question about charging. they stay at a high voltage though the entire discharge cycle. repeaking them only gives you an extra boost in voltage for a few seconds. You'll notice most pros don't charge until the last second to get a boost in voltage. the voltage is so high as it is you want consistency not a peak spike for the start. Of course there will have to be long term testing to see how they hold up, but if you didn't know by now consumers are often the test dummies for that.
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Old 08-28-2003, 03:27 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by futureal
Part of the fun of being in a hobby like this one is exploring new techologies and how we can use them to have fun. Lithium Poly cells weren't designed for R/C Racing, but just look at how we can turn them into fun and games! Just like the Sub-C cell market; for years, the market was/has been driven by the power tool (and other) industries, and yet here we are drooling every time they jump a couple hundred mAH.

I don't think new technologies will put hobby shops out of business at all. You could argue that if a shop sells 2 Li-Poly batteries to all of its racing customers rather than 4-6 matched sub-C packs, it is losing money. But it remains to be seen how well the batteries will hold up under the rigors of racing, and I'd wager that the "fast" guys (and/or the ones who spend the proverbial "cubic dollars" on the hobby) will still be back for new packs every season.

Same goes for brushless motors. Maybe they'll sell fewer motors, but the guys that have them can run three times as long, so they'll break three times as many parts. Maybe these new technologies will actually be a boon to hobby shops after all.

As for motor tuners and battery matchers, that remains to be seen. The more resourceful ones will turn to other products, and use their established good name to launch other lines. Plus, I think brushed motors and sub-C cells still have many years of life in them -- 2 to 3 years at the absolute least. And it's quite possible that other new technologies will emerge to take their place and give us more things to focus our tuning energies on.

DerekB, thanks for the informative article. It took me awhile to track down that issue since I just buy them all at newsstands. Maybe I'll stop by and harass you guys at the Hobby Expo (if you're there) about getting a subscription, since I never got the t-shirt I ordered on Xtreme's website nearly 2 years ago! I saw you there last year but every time I walked by, you were on your cell phone. Go figure! haha

Be sure and stop by! I'll be sure to hook you up with the shirt! In fact email me your address and I'll see what I can do.

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Old 08-28-2003, 04:07 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by DerekB
I think the first post in this thread tells you that it's in our latest issue of Xtreme RC Cars Magazine. It's an article on Li-Po cells. I'll probably post this on our website after this week and our deadline. But until then it's in the October Issue (96).
so what issue is it that talks about lithium poly batteries?
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Old 08-28-2003, 05:39 PM   #51
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I would think the motors couldn't handle it, but this is my opinion. You'd spend all day charging 1 battery...lol. Just another scheme to get more money and your old stuff will be obsolete...sigh.
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Old 08-28-2003, 05:55 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by ImGoinRCn
I would think the motors couldn't handle it, but this is my opinion. You'd spend all day charging 1 battery...lol. Just another scheme to get more money and your old stuff will be obsolete...sigh.
Our motors can't handle the batteries as it stands. Pro's are having trouble getting the motors to last 5 minutes, but that has mothing to do with us using a technology that's from the 80's (perhaps earlier). The article was to show an extreme of the technology

Everything will be obsolete (I'm glad since I wouldn't want to drive a car from the 20s) and every company is out to get your money. That's how the world works.
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Old 08-28-2003, 06:03 PM   #53
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Default Re: Re: DerekB......

Quote:
Originally posted by DerekB
I write for XRC yes, in fact, I'm the Excutive Editor.
Little off topic here, but i'd just like to say XRC is my favorite magazine, sure any magazine can write a review of a product, but you guys do it in a fashion which makes reading the articles enjoyable. I never bother reading the editorials in other magazines, but I always do in XRC because of all the witty comments and whatnot, the numerical thing at the bottom of the "Rules That Suck" editorial this month was hilarious, and I wholeheartedly agree with you about IFMAR qualifying being boring. Friends would ask me to do something with them on a Friday night and I tell them I have racing that night and they reply asking if they could come and watch, I always tell them that unless they're on the drivers stand racing they will have a very boring time and not to even bothing coming and watching, if every qualifier was balls to the wall like it is in the mains, I would never turn down a freind from coming because I know they would have a good time watching. Just like the rule change in Formula 1 this year regarding the qualifying format, qualifying is very boring, even to the diehard F1 aficionado.

Sorry for the off topic post .
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Old 08-28-2003, 06:27 PM   #54
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Originally posted by racenut123
When you said "thats why the theory of evolution makes so much sense"this explains your views of things.Ease of use is not there for the racer types.I am an avid E-flight guy and for that purpose I see viability.Not for the racer,in which I am also.For radios and reciever packs,ok.But the way these things have to be wired for the battery to be able to put out the apms for rc cars,I seriously doubt its use anytime soon let alone ever.Maybe I will be proven wrong.Are you affiliated with an rc mag?I am tired of rc magazine guys spewing useless info.Thats why I dont subscribe to any mags anymore.The stuff they write alot of times is motivated by the need to please manufactures which are thier advertising clients.
I have been using Kokam Lipoly packs in two planes for about eight months now. Most of your arguement is based on the fact that these cutting edge cells were never designed nor intended for this application, so they are manipulated and tweaked to work for RC applications.

Yes I did have to by another charger (Orbit Microlader for me but there are numerous ones available) and learn about the charging and maintenance of these new cells; they hold their voltage longer and better then any NIMH available (from memory it is like 2% decrease a month in total charge capacity). You could charge five packs the week before a race and not even worry about topping off the pack, which is not recommended at this point anyways. Soon some mfg is going to get it and start creating wired up and ready to use packs eliminating the need to custom wire up packs which I will say is not the easiest thing to do.

For many it may be a total turn-off to even consider the massive changes that would be required, a new motor (brushed motors and lipolys do not get along well you tend to eat brushes as if they were light balsa compounded by the fact you tend to run the model many times longer per outing), new charging equipment and quite possibly new equipment to maintain the packs.

For me the idea of stagnating any technology for the sake of maintaining a status quo is crazy, or else we would still be using NICAD and NIMH's would be relegated to running our transmiters and such. Imagine racing actually coming down to the quality of the tuned chassis and the racers ability...
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Old 08-28-2003, 06:33 PM   #55
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where can you get these batteries??????????

and what kinda amp would you charge em at?
has anyone tried this for rc except those people that wrote the magazine?
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Old 08-28-2003, 06:35 PM   #56
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Originally posted by Fasttrak
I have been using Kokam Lipoly packs in two planes for about eight months now. Most of your arguement is based on the fact that these cutting edge cells were never designed nor intended for this application, so they are manipulated and tweaked to work for RC applications.

Yes I did have to by another charger (Orbit Microlader for me but there are numerous ones available) and learn about the charging and maintenance of these new cells; they hold their voltage longer and better then any NIMH available (from memory it is like 2% decrease a month in total charge capacity). You could charge five packs the week before a race and not even worry about topping off the pack, which is not recommended at this point anyways. Soon some mfg is going to get it and start creating wired up and ready to use packs eliminating the need to custom wire up packs which I will say is not the easiest thing to do.

For many it may be a total turn-off to even consider the massive changes that would be required, a new motor (brushed motors and lipolys do not get along well you tend to eat brushes as if they were light balsa compounded by the fact you tend to run the model many times longer per outing), new charging equipment and quite possibly new equipment to maintain the packs.

For me the idea of stagnating any technology for the sake of maintaining a status quo is crazy, or else we would still be using NICAD and NIMH's would be relegated to running our transmiters and such. Imagine racing actually coming down to the quality of the tuned chassis and the racers ability...

Call me crazy, but did you agree with me !!!!

There is an obvious change needed to run these cells. But nothing new. You can't and shouldn't use a charger for Nicads on NIMH cells. People had to learn a new method of maintenance and so on. And of course brushless will eb the saving grace for electric cars at some point, but we are still waiting for that...
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Old 08-28-2003, 06:42 PM   #57
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I purchased from several locations, the Kokams can be had here,

http://www.b-p-p.com/products.htm

But, you can not use just any charger unless it is specificaly set to charge Lipoly cells, or else your investment will quickly go up in a puff of smoke. I would also highly suggest using them with a brushless motor, unless you enjoy cutting coms after every run and replacing the brushes too. This technology is still in its infancy, but give it a couple years and it will most likely be the norm instead of the exception. One of my planes is a cheap little $50.00 Lite Stick, with a $140.00 brushless motor and a forty dollar battery, I usually end up landing due to a tired neck before the batteries ever dump.
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Old 08-28-2003, 06:46 PM   #58
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Originally posted by DerekB
Call me crazy, but did you agree with me !!!!

There is an obvious change needed to run these cells. But nothing new. You can't and shouldn't use a charger for Nicads on NIMH cells. People had to learn a new method of maintenance and so on. And of course brushless will eb the saving grace for electric cars at some point, but we are still waiting for that...
ROFLMAO!!! I hit the wrong person to quote!! Hehehe, oh well. Yes I fully agree with you and the fact these will replace NIMH's in the very near future. My packs are still giving me damn near the full charge many months later, I only wish I was young enough to stand there longer staring up at the sky. Pretty soon there will be newer designs that will make drop in fits for most chassis, when the chassis start designing around those thin flat packs will be very interesting Imagine a half inch pack no wider or longer then your 3300 NIMHS giving you over 8000 MAH and it can be easily placed down the middle of the chassis right under the drive shaft...
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Old 08-28-2003, 06:51 PM   #59
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Originally posted by Fasttrak
ROFLMAO!!! I hit the wrong person to quote!! Hehehe, oh well. Yes I fully agree with you and the fact these will replace NIMH's in the very near future. My packs are still giving me damn near the full charge many months later, I only wish I was young enough to stand there longer staring up at the sky. Pretty soon there will be newer designs that will make drop in fits for most chassis, when the chassis start designing around those thin flat packs will be very interesting Imagine a half inch pack no wider or longer then your 3300 NIMHS giving you over 8000 MAH and it can be easily placed down the middle of the chassis right under the drive shaft...
I don't know if I should cry or smile...lol

I'm glad you see what I see when it comes to these cells. BTW, I bet you'll get a kick out of my editorial in the Novemeber issue...this thread was my inspiration. Thanks for that!
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Old 08-28-2003, 06:54 PM   #60
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Originally posted by DerekB
I don't know if I should cry or smile...lol

I'm glad you see what I see when it comes to these cells. BTW, I bet you'll get a kick out of my editorial in the Novemeber issue...this thread was my inspiration. Thanks for that!
Can't wait to read it .
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