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Old 07-28-2008, 04:59 PM   #106
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Old 07-28-2008, 05:18 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by TheCoolCanFanMan View Post
To make a point about full sponsored guys, they have NIMHS given to them, and charge them at crazy amps to get the punch from them, then at the end of a national say, they then bin them, you can't do this with Lipo YET and thats why its a level playing field with Lipo's
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Wrong. You must have missed the thread where a sponsored oval driver detailed a way to overcharge lipos and get a significant power advantage. however, if you screw this up, you WILL get a fire, and the packs life is reduced even if you do it correctly. Racing is racing, there will always be someone willing to look for and sacrifice longevity for an advantage.
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Old 07-28-2008, 05:24 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by brit_bulldog View Post
Hi Rick,

Just imagine you built your hi tech beatuful 1/12th car, took your time built it perfect. then you have to add a lot of weight just to meet the rules. It seems odd and no-one can tell you or me that in doing so it makes the car strong because it doesnt, is that not the point of the weight limit to stop guys making stupid light cars that will fall apart as soon as you clip them?
It works the same in reverse if you keep adding weight to a car it will likely do more damage not just to your car but the track markers the other cars and the ankles of any Marshall stupid enough to get in way.

forget NIMH v LIPO for a moment and consider why do we have a minimum weight limit. then ask yourself if it was introduced when you had no option but to run nimh or ni-cad. Then ask yourself if new guys to the hobby will see any sense at all when they buy there car to be told that they must add weight.
I think we need to make this class of racing better we must change with the times or drivers will look to classes that do not have these handicaps in place.

I think the only guys who want to keep it are the ones with limitless supplies of expensive best matched NIMHS. the average guy cannot match this. but the LIPO make it a much more level playing field as matching and specialist charging to near destruction is not nessecary to compete with those fast guys with the best latest cells.

So my message to those top ROAR guys is are you afraid of something?
Why is there such a problem with putting $4 of lead on your car?

Your car will be unbalanced if you don't put it on, unless you have a JRXS-R or a Team Magic car.

Not to mention, none of you are thinking about the future. 10 years ago, Sanyo 2000s were WAY lighter than today's 4600s. The weight was the same. I would definitely expect lipos to become heavier as the capacities improve. We would be changing weight limits back as time goes on, since it will only encourage light parts that will be a heck of a lot more than a $4 package of lead.
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Old 07-28-2008, 05:44 PM   #109
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I find it interesting that those in favor of a weight reduction can give a detailed reason or reasons why they believe the weights minimums should be reduced, yet those against the weight reduction can only find "errors" in logic to negate points, not reasons to keep the minimum.

Just so all of you know, I don't really have an opinion, I just go with the flow, race when I can and meet the rules of whatever track I race at.

Keeping the status quo just because there may be errors in opinions is a false logic.

I don't particularly enjoy having to put weight into my car just to meet a minimum. I think you guys are to caught up in typical layouts and fail to realize that there are other means to equalize weight on a given car without the added weight, it would just make the car under the current regulations. i'm not telling you guys to jump in the lake, but at least dip your foot in
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Old 07-28-2008, 05:50 PM   #110
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I find it interesting that those in favor of a weight reduction can give a detailed reason or reasons why they believe the weights minimums should be reduced, yet those against the weight reduction can only find "errors" in logic to negate points, not reasons to keep the minimum....


Keeping the status quo just because there may be errors in opinions is a false logic.

I don't particularly enjoy having to put weight into my car just to meet a minimum. I think you guys are to caught up in typical layouts and fail to realize that there are other means to equalize weight on a given car without the added weight, it would just make the car under the current regulations. i'm not telling you guys to jump in the lake, but at least dip your foot in
Reasons you will need some weight:
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Originally Posted by robk View Post

Your car will be unbalanced if you don't put it on, unless you have a JRXS-R or a Team Magic car.

Not to mention, none of you are thinking about the future. 10 years ago, Sanyo 2000s were WAY lighter than today's 4600s. The weight was the same. I would definitely expect lipos to become heavier as the capacities improve. We would be changing weight limits back as time goes on, since it will only encourage light parts that will be a heck of a lot more than a $4 package of lead.
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Old 07-28-2008, 05:51 PM   #111
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Why is there such a problem with putting $4 of lead on your car?

Your car will be unbalanced if you don't put it on, unless you have a JRXS-R or a Team Magic car.

Not to mention, none of you are thinking about the future. 10 years ago, Sanyo 2000s were WAY lighter than today's 4600s. The weight was the same. I would definitely expect lipos to become heavier as the capacities improve. We would be changing weight limits back as time goes on, since it will only encourage light parts that will be a heck of a lot more than a $4 package of lead.
And a Brusheless ESC is now more than double the weight of a brushed ESC, and brushed is all but gone now, ie NOSRAM Dominator Evolution 84 grams, and Nosram Evolution 182 grams. so a BL ESC is whole 98 grams heavier. so why we adding yet more weight to the car?
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Old 07-28-2008, 05:53 PM   #112
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I raced stock, 6cell indoors last year with a car that weighed over 60/70gr more than the weigh limit, if anything the extra weight helped generate grip and didnt feel any slower down the straight than the rest of the guys nearing 1500gr, with the risk of their time not being allowed when its 5gr underweight
The only reason that works is because of the shore rating of the current tires and the firmness of the inserts. get a lower tire rating, like 20 and a softer insert and you'll have the same grip with a lighter car. Softer springs and lower oil wt helps aswell.

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What are you hoping to achieve by having a lighter car? Will it make the racing more enjoyable?
Probably, because of the reduced wear and tear.
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Old 07-28-2008, 05:59 PM   #113
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What part about EQUALIZING COMPETITION don't you understand? A light chassis will have an advantage if it is powered by Lipo, Nimh, or horseshit. One standard weight that all chassis can be weighted to is fair. I haven't seen a chassis yet that cant be brought right to the weight limit and be perfectly balanced.

For the record, I don't get batteries handed to me, and I do have a Lipo I race in sedan.

This thread is beating the proverbial dead horse.
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Old 07-28-2008, 06:00 PM   #114
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Just to clarify, There are other wayst to equalize the weight of the car without adding weight. it's just different than what we are all accustomed to. it may not be better, but it's possible. i'm working on something very basic that my good friend thinks is odd. he's a smart guy and I value his input, but what do I have to lose? What does it hurt to try something different in terms of how I arrange the electronics. you guys are taking this far too personally...
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Old 07-28-2008, 06:11 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by TheCoolCanFanMan View Post
And a Brusheless ESC is now more than double the weight of a brushed ESC, and brushed is all but gone now, ie NOSRAM Dominator Evolution 84 grams, and Nosram Evolution 182 grams. so a BL ESC is whole 98 grams heavier. so why we adding yet more weight to the car?
Will the ESC also be on the battery side of the car?
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Old 07-28-2008, 06:15 PM   #116
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I've been watching this thread with interest.
I tihnk the weight limit should be reduced as the majority of current spec cars need to have weight added even when running 4600's. What I would propose would be about a 25gm reduction in weight every year for a couple of years to slowly get the weight down.

This would allow manufacturers to update their cars with LiPo in mind, yet keep the NiMh guys happy.

Just my 2c
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Old 07-28-2008, 06:20 PM   #117
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The only reason that works is because of the shore rating of the current tires and the firmness of the inserts. get a lower tire rating, like 20 and a softer insert and you'll have the same grip with a lighter car. Softer springs and lower oil wt helps aswell.

Probably, because of the reduced wear and tear.
So a quick recap. We will need to change "stock" BL motor wind AGAIN to keep the same acceleration / speed, change tires / inserts for equal grip, softer springs and prob. lighter oil, force all the NiMh guys to convert to LiPo to keep things equal...anything else??

And all this is to reduce wear and tear?? Wow....by how much?

Like Rick said, when NiMh is phased out...then it is time to drop weight...if you look at the domino effect of changes, it will be marginally worth it even then IMO. And, you still have to keep in mind the wide range of weights and mah the LiPo's are coming in before setting the new min weight.
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Old 07-28-2008, 06:57 PM   #118
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So a quick recap. We will need to change "stock" BL motor wind AGAIN to keep the same acceleration / speed, change tires / inserts for equal grip, softer springs and prob. lighter oil, force all the NiMh guys to convert to LiPo to keep things equal...anything else??

And all this is to reduce wear and tear?? Wow....by how much?

Like Rick said, when NiMh is phased out...then it is time to drop weight...if you look at the domino effect of changes, it will be marginally worth it even then IMO. And, you still have to keep in mind the wide range of weights and mah the LiPo's are coming in before settling on the new min weight.
Exactly.....lipo manufacturers has just exposed the tip of the iceberg. There's new stuff poppin' up everyday.
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Old 07-28-2008, 07:58 PM   #119
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So a quick recap. We will need to change "stock" BL motor wind AGAIN to keep the same acceleration / speed,
Keep in mind only one company was making a BL motor that was wind based instead of kV based . It's a pain in the butt that ROAR approved wind based motors, otherwise there would be a lot more companies in the mix.

Personally I would love to see a NEU or an Aon motor in the list but all their motors are rated in kV. plus a kV rating is easier to understand

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change tires / inserts for equal grip, softer springs and prob. lighter oil, force all the NiMh guys to convert to LiPo to keep things equal...anything else??
I certainly didn't say ANYTHING about forcing people to change. If they are serious about winning or even competing they will go with the lighter, and faster stuff. They already buy Phi's, Cyclones, Scythes, 008's, and every other lightweight race chassis to get an edge. It's only a matter of time before they go with lighter batteries.

Softer tires just give more grip when the car is lighter. It is a person's choice to get those, nothing more.

technology evolves and leaves those who are unwilling/refusing to change in the past. you certainly don't see TT-01's in nat's, do ya? and i'm pretty sure people who owned TT-01's and TGX's were saying the new CF chassis were 'unfair'.

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Old 07-29-2008, 03:11 AM   #120
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Why is there such a problem with putting $4 of lead on your car?

Your car will be unbalanced if you don't put it on, unless you have a JRXS-R or a Team Magic car.

Not to mention, none of you are thinking about the future. 10 years ago, Sanyo 2000s were WAY lighter than today's 4600s. The weight was the same. I would definitely expect lipos to become heavier as the capacities improve. We would be changing weight limits back as time goes on, since it will only encourage light parts that will be a heck of a lot more than a $4 package of lead.

Hi ROBK,

"Why is there such a problem with putting $4 of lead on your car?"

I thought i mentioned that in my post! it is not the cost please read again.

"Your car will be unbalanced if you don't put it on, unless you have a JRXS-R or a Team Magic car."

I have a Kyosho and it is not unbalanced, In fact at our club night we dont enforce BRCA rules and regs so i just run with a lipo and no added weight. I been trying softer tires and it makes a big help. The biggest plus for me is that my car never breaks if i win a final it is not becuase i am fastest because i am well behind in abilility (and spend budget)but because my car is strong and reliable. A, because it is a Kyosho and B, because it is light.
I have raced at BRCA events and i have to spend ages adding lead and never get the car working as good.
So in fact for someone like me (and i think it is fair to say the majority) adding weight is stopping our fun and enjoyment.

"Not to mention, none of you are thinking about the future. 10 years ago, Sanyo 2000s were WAY lighter than today's 4600s. The weight was the same. I would definitely expect lipos to become heavier as the capacities improve. We would be changing weight limits back as time goes on, since it will only encourage light parts that will be a heck of a lot more than a $4 package of lead."

What are you saying that we must have a maxium weight limit?

I think you are the one not considering the future if we dont change and make racing cheaper easier for entry level drivers than the new talented guys will look else where then cost of everything goes up due to lack of sales interest and competition.
Lipos will never be that heavy they may increase as capacity increases but what do you think will happen already the best packs are not the biggest capacity but the best discharge rating. maybe a way forward is to consider longer heats or finals becasue we can, as to date no matter how big your capacity is you always gear and tune your motor to last 5 minutes (at top level)
Maybe if you had to think about a seven or ten minute final like the 1/12th guys it would stop the cars getting stupid quick. Maybe this is the way forward?

But whatever happens we must be prepared to embrace any technology that makes racing cheaper fairer and more fun as well as being more durable and easier to maintain.
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