Lowering the weight of Touring Cars that use lipo
07-22-2008, 10:54 AM
#46
07-22-2008, 11:02 AM
#47
The thread is about weight. Not cost. Reducing the weight isn't going to do anything to get more people to race again. Personally, I don't think that the weight of the cars is the problem with sedan but this isn't the place to complain about all of the issues that are bringing sedan down.
As I said in my previous post, 'This thread is not to wind people up I can assure you, its just an opinion of quite a few people I have spoken to recently' and is no way complaining or bringing the sedan down, thats not what im getting at at all
Cheers Malc
07-22-2008, 11:09 AM
#48
I'm going to have to disagree with Seaball on the lighter cars make for more fragile cars.
My Reedy 5000 LiPO's weighs an easy 200g less than my 4600's.
I can replace my servo with another servo that weighs 20g less because the car needs less steering torque with less weight.
The new tires sets weigh 10g less each because of the larger rims, 40g savings there.
Without hacking and cuting on the chassis, a sedan can easily weigh upto 300g less than todays cars by changing the motor and battery package.
So what incentive would a car maker have to make the car more fragile? Racers will still have to add weight if the limits were reduced by 100 or even 200 grams. Manufactures would loose customers if they made a product snap like a twig. If the manufacture chooses to use exotic parts, they could just outprice themselves from future sales.
Speed Can Win a race, Durability will finish the race.
My Reedy 5000 LiPO's weighs an easy 200g less than my 4600's.
I can replace my servo with another servo that weighs 20g less because the car needs less steering torque with less weight.
The new tires sets weigh 10g less each because of the larger rims, 40g savings there.
Without hacking and cuting on the chassis, a sedan can easily weigh upto 300g less than todays cars by changing the motor and battery package.
So what incentive would a car maker have to make the car more fragile? Racers will still have to add weight if the limits were reduced by 100 or even 200 grams. Manufactures would loose customers if they made a product snap like a twig. If the manufacture chooses to use exotic parts, they could just outprice themselves from future sales.
Speed Can Win a race, Durability will finish the race.
This way mfs can beef up the cars wishbones, make bulkheads of stronger materials etc etc.
Cheers Malc
Cheers Malc
07-22-2008, 11:15 AM
#49
This again is my bug bind, like you say, youve built a lovely model car, only to have the HASSLE to add around 200 grams of UGLY weight over your car if you run Lipo.
Malc
07-22-2008, 11:47 AM
#50
Cars need to be the same mass for a given voltage to race equally and competitively. Don't like it, though. This is racing, and all racing across the board (from horse racing to sled racing to all car racing) has weight minimums that must be met. Lipo cars are as competitive at the weight minimums as are Nimh. I don't believe in penalizing the people that can't make the jump. Nimh is not obsolete tech yet, the weight rules should stand until it is.
Chassis MFGs will reduce the mass of their components as soon as the weight limits are lowered. Speeds will be faster, components will still break just as easily. No gain.
07-22-2008, 12:12 PM
#51
If Pan cars ended up running a smaller motor, it will be a matter of time before sedans make the switch. The speeds for stock are already excessive for new racers
Be optimistic... Smaller motors, batteries, and speed controllers can make for cheaper racing by hundreds of dolllars. Also, the chassis design can be more compact since there is less total mass and volume of material
07-22-2008, 12:33 PM
#52
07-22-2008, 12:47 PM
#53
Malc
07-22-2008, 01:24 PM
#54
If you drop the weight then it will completely re-open the engineering & car market because a 19 turn car will be very fast in mod. This will mean that tc4s & sds will no longer have to worry about torque steer in mod.
07-22-2008, 03:42 PM
#55
I'm kind of neutral on this topic, but I've been wondering how much the reduced weight of a TC affects available traction. I've heard that pan cars wouldn't work well with smaller motors because they are already so light. Coupled with increasing punch from batteries, at what point does the lack of weight start negatively affecting a TCs handling?
07-23-2008, 01:36 AM
#56
Even if there is a "need" to lower the weight limit with lipo, I am +1 on the mentality it's not the right time for it.
Touring cars need some stability, the combination of ever changing technology, endlest lists of classes, (now a suggestion of additional) weight limits and various other rules will kill what there is left of the class.
(Looking at the whole picture of the touring car class).... I've seen plenty of things change/ come and go in the 10+ years of racing them... right from when the class was first formed using on road, wide bodied shells on off road cars and the first tamiya FWD touring car range like the Honda accord and Opel Vectra (Vauxhall Cavalier)... Hopefully im not showing my age too much,lol...
The first gen tamiya cars were a) bulletproof b) easy to look after/set up and c) POPULAR and therefore very competitive. All these died off after the 3300/3700 cell era, then the voltage war of newer cells and more exotic cars/parts etc made the basic cars look like they were stationary....
Simple classes like the mardave minis/hotrods work well because they use a very clear ruling that rarely gets changed/added to. There is also a smaller development plan on their chassis/upgrades... making everyone spend less and feel less behind on keeping up with the "must have" generation of racer.
Go to MacD's/BK/KFC whatever, then look at whatever burger you buy.... its already been built. Same with touring cars- you dont just look at the final product, you look at how it will be affected if you change something, such as the weight limit.
I guess in the takeaway example, If BK change their onions to gerkins, will people keep buying, or go elsewhere? Who knows if they have a cast iron stomach or a sensitive bowel?
However....
If there is enough interest at your local club to make a lower weight limit amongst the lipo community, then sure go for it, but I don't see it going widespread across the UK (for now).
The 1$ mil question is....
Do you want to see the touring car class grow by not overcomplicating the classes with weight limits, or hold onto the guys who must have/convert to race lipo? (Probably not the best way of wording it, but hopefully you get my point). Lets not make another war/decision of what to race, too many of them already in touring....
Once a rule is out there, its like wildfire, it's very difficult to get things back to where they once were.... At the least, its risky. At most, it will kill touring cars or keep the numbers racing touring cars stagnent, with no new blood.
Touring cars need some stability, the combination of ever changing technology, endlest lists of classes, (now a suggestion of additional) weight limits and various other rules will kill what there is left of the class.
(Looking at the whole picture of the touring car class).... I've seen plenty of things change/ come and go in the 10+ years of racing them... right from when the class was first formed using on road, wide bodied shells on off road cars and the first tamiya FWD touring car range like the Honda accord and Opel Vectra (Vauxhall Cavalier)... Hopefully im not showing my age too much,lol...
The first gen tamiya cars were a) bulletproof b) easy to look after/set up and c) POPULAR and therefore very competitive. All these died off after the 3300/3700 cell era, then the voltage war of newer cells and more exotic cars/parts etc made the basic cars look like they were stationary....
Simple classes like the mardave minis/hotrods work well because they use a very clear ruling that rarely gets changed/added to. There is also a smaller development plan on their chassis/upgrades... making everyone spend less and feel less behind on keeping up with the "must have" generation of racer.
Go to MacD's/BK/KFC whatever, then look at whatever burger you buy.... its already been built. Same with touring cars- you dont just look at the final product, you look at how it will be affected if you change something, such as the weight limit.
I guess in the takeaway example, If BK change their onions to gerkins, will people keep buying, or go elsewhere? Who knows if they have a cast iron stomach or a sensitive bowel?
However....
If there is enough interest at your local club to make a lower weight limit amongst the lipo community, then sure go for it, but I don't see it going widespread across the UK (for now).
The 1$ mil question is....
Do you want to see the touring car class grow by not overcomplicating the classes with weight limits, or hold onto the guys who must have/convert to race lipo? (Probably not the best way of wording it, but hopefully you get my point). Lets not make another war/decision of what to race, too many of them already in touring....
Once a rule is out there, its like wildfire, it's very difficult to get things back to where they once were.... At the least, its risky. At most, it will kill touring cars or keep the numbers racing touring cars stagnent, with no new blood.
Last edited by tc3team; 07-23-2008 at 01:54 AM.
07-23-2008, 03:45 AM
#57
I agree with the coolcanfanman, weight limit should be lowered, i think even lower than 1400 (like 1300g)
and all mfg's should design cars like the tm e4 with the weight in the middle,
so that the car is balanced no matter what battery you run, with out the need for weights.
and i drive a cyclone!!!! and im still saying this.
weight sucks, its just loading motors more, and less runtime, and more driveline wear, & when you crash the car can get more damaged.
you's can flame me if you want, i dont really care, this is my opinion.
and all mfg's should design cars like the tm e4 with the weight in the middle,
so that the car is balanced no matter what battery you run, with out the need for weights.
and i drive a cyclone!!!! and im still saying this.
weight sucks, its just loading motors more, and less runtime, and more driveline wear, & when you crash the car can get more damaged.
you's can flame me if you want, i dont really care, this is my opinion.
07-23-2008, 09:23 AM
#59
07-23-2008, 09:16 PM
#60
I think it is time for a small weight break for Lipo, maybe 25-100 grams. It should pretty easy to get the car lighter without spending a bunch of cash. Proper balancing with moving your electronics around (inboard) and your Lipo out as far and using the minimum extra needed wieght to balance it should get it close to or lighter than the minimum current wieght.
I know when we have a bigger race; the Nimh are a tenth faster than a good Lipo. When I say good Lipo, I am saying an SMC 4000 or 5000 pack. In 13.5/Lipo is off pace to a 13.5/4600, period. I would like to have a weight break and get the cars to close the gap. In club racing it is not a big deal, in a bigger race it is a problem.
I also don't think you will see an automatic lowering of your lap times just from a weight change: it will probably need a gearing change/ and also suspension changes to take full effect of the lighter car to close the gap.
Just my opinion
I know when we have a bigger race; the Nimh are a tenth faster than a good Lipo. When I say good Lipo, I am saying an SMC 4000 or 5000 pack. In 13.5/Lipo is off pace to a 13.5/4600, period. I would like to have a weight break and get the cars to close the gap. In club racing it is not a big deal, in a bigger race it is a problem.
I also don't think you will see an automatic lowering of your lap times just from a weight change: it will probably need a gearing change/ and also suspension changes to take full effect of the lighter car to close the gap.
Just my opinion