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Old 06-04-2008, 10:15 AM   #121
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is it happening... yet?



No? Why not?

Yes? Why so?

Please.. need help in this one.... this discussion will help determine changes in next years electric proposals given to class committee's in ROAR....



Dawn
topic?

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Old 06-04-2008, 10:27 AM   #122
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Jim,

I RC race almost every week. I am not a ROAR member. It is clearly not the first line item for me and many others. I do not intend to undermine the presence of ROAR in the RC community. They are a very valuable asset to all RC racers whether a member or not purely based on the rule set standards – but it is not a required line item for anyone that does not race at a ROAR track. In fact, I would have to travel for hours just to find a ROAR membership required track.


Back on topic:
To me, the reason why electric racing seems to be on the up rise is due to the ease of use of brushless and lipo batteries and the increase in quality and quantity of RTR’s. It takes little specific knowledge of RC racing to keep an electric car moving consistently over a prolonged period of time relative to the knowledge required for a nitro powered car. Keeping the car moving is key to keeping a rookie’s interest.
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Old 06-04-2008, 10:29 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Dawn Sanchez View Post
is it happening... yet?



No? Why not?

Yes? Why so?

Please.. need help in this one.... this discussion will help determine changes in next years electric proposals given to class committee's in ROAR....



Dawn
Yeah! what She said
more to the point
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Old 06-04-2008, 11:22 AM   #124
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I could be wrong, I think there is 10 different divisions...:

• Formula
• Grand Touring (GT)
• Improved Touring
• Prepared
• Production
• American Sedan
• Showroom Stock
• Spec Miata
• Sports Racer
• Touring
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Old 06-04-2008, 11:44 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by timmay70 View Post
I could be wrong, I think there is 10 different divisions...:

• Formula
• Grand Touring (GT)
• Improved Touring
• Prepared
• Production
• American Sedan
• Showroom Stock
• Spec Miata
• Sports Racer
• Touring
right off the scca website

"The following are the 30 classes that compete in SCCA Club Racing National events"


to bring this to point. SCCA is setup for everyone to be able to compete, in all price points. but to make that happen, they have lots of classes. This allows people to be able to compete like for like. as posted early in this thread. if you are trying to grow this "Sport" we need to get people in. And to get people in, they need to have a chance to win. To run in a class with only 2-5 people, gives the perception of a "chance to win". for local events, more classes, more division of skills, get people racing like for like.
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Old 06-04-2008, 11:54 AM   #126
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OK back to the topic of electric onroad racing rules...

Split into 2 topics: Racers and cars

Racers:
Can/will/ROAR make different driver levels? Like sponsored racers/non-sponsored racers? Driver ability? Age: 0 to 16, 17 to 45, and 45 to old farts? Years in hobby? Gender?

Cars:
1/12 and 1/10, will 1/18 or others be added?
Motors brushed/brushless Stock/ Super stock, mod and open
Batteries: Lipo, nimh and nicd....
bodies? 190 vs 200

Will tires ( foam/rubber ) be added to the ROAR approved list?
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Old 06-04-2008, 12:05 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn Sanchez View Post
is it happening... yet?



No? Why not?

Yes? Why so?

Please.. need help in this one.... this discussion will help determine changes in next years electric proposals given to class committee's in ROAR....



Dawn
Electric racing is still in a decline, on-road in particular. The skyrocketing costs and lack of hobby shop promotion is killing tracks off left and right. After speaking with some people well known and respected in this industry, I think I can present a few ideas that can bring back electric racing.

1. Impose retail cost limits on the car manufacturers for stock and superstock classes. Some of the cars we race retail for over $900. Yes, this hasn't been helped by the global economy nor the devaluing of the dollar, but this could still be controlled. New people are not going to be drawn in with competitive car kits that alone cost $400+ online or at hobby shops. When I started, a competitive touring car kit was $200-250 (AE TC3, Yokomo MR4-TC, Losi XXX-S). This kind of thing needs to return, or as close to it as possible. When you combine the investment of a new car with the start-up costs of brushless and/or LiPo, the new-comer turns his/her head. It's simply too much. This problem is a hard one to rectify, as we have all grown accustomed to high-end "luxury" touring cars full of carbon fiber and machined aluminum components. These technologies are nice, and the cars are far better designed and constructed because of it, but the price of this kind of technology has gone further than the hobby can sustain. We must do something now, or in a couple years, the class won't exist.

2. This is an item that only the manufacturers can do, but hopefully they are interested in bringing things back to how they were 5-10 years ago, and that there are enough people to push them to this. Create a pricing structure for actual hobby shops/tracks that allows them to compete with (and exceed) online stores. This is the only way these places will remain profitable. So many tracks have closed in the last two years due to their inability to compete with online stores. Hobby shops make a large percentage of their profit through product markup. If, to remain competitively priced, they make little to no profit on the items they sell, how are they supposed to stay in business? Racing fees alone do not come close to paying the bills. People bring this up all the time, but it feels like no one listens, no one takes it to heart.

Save electric racing, save the world. (sorry, stupid "Heroes" pun ).
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Old 06-04-2008, 12:07 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theisgroup View Post
right off the scca website

"The following are the 30 classes that compete in SCCA Club Racing National events"


to bring this to point. SCCA is setup for everyone to be able to compete, in all price points. but to make that happen, they have lots of classes. This allows people to be able to compete like for like. as posted early in this thread. if you are trying to grow this "Sport" we need to get people in. And to get people in, they need to have a chance to win. To run in a class with only 2-5 people, gives the perception of a "chance to win". for local events, more classes, more division of skills, get people racing like for like.
SCCA National Events are limited to those racers who have qualified to race on a National level by making their way through a tiered qualification license. An SCCA National event is similar to a ROAR Regional in status. An SCCA Regional is similar to Non-Regional championship trophy race. The SCCA Runoff’s is similar to ROAR National championship.

SCCA does not market the perception of a chance to win. In fact, despite the parity in the rules, it still comes down to who spends the most money in car preparation. The price point theory does not work.

However, using your point, I do see a similarity to ROAR. There are MANY (maybe too many) electric classes with all of the possible combinations of motor, battery and tire. This does dilute class entry counts reaching your chance to win perception. For me, I’d rather be mid pack in a large field than a front runner of just a few.
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Old 06-04-2008, 04:24 PM   #129
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Well okay let's get back to Dawn's question.

Thanks to LiPo and Brushless there has been a bump in electric racing, both on and off road. Brushless motors have taken away the "motor tuner" advantage, and LiPo's don't die from not being used like the current NiMh cells. My fear is (and I've already heard this) that racers will figure out stuff they can do with brushless motors and even the LiPo batteries that will make them more expensive, and render their advantage moot.

But it was a small bump, and it's already beginning to recede. In on road, touring cars are way too expensive, and if you live where outdoor racing is seasonal, you need 2 cars, one for carpet, one for outdoor.

Off road electric has been losing favor to the nitro cars for some time. Electric off road requires very subtle driving techniques, where in nitro most are only worried about getting the most air.

Somewhere along the way, we forgot that we're supposed to be doing this for fun. Too many people are worried about winning the A, getting a sponsorship and going to the big races. When you get that competitive, you turn a lot of people off. And with all the other distractions out there, it's far easier to sell all your stuff and do something else.

My 2 suggestions for electric touring car:

1. BAN FOAM TIRES. That eliminates the need for a thick chassis carpet car. Sorry Tim.

2. Ban the use of graphite. Carbon fibre composites are light and strong, but are also very expensive.

Bodies are another thing that can bring back the fun, but that's another whole thread.
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Old 06-05-2008, 02:55 AM   #130
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apologise to "put my spoon in this pudding" as I am not american. I have been looking at this thread daily. For some strange reason I relly on ROAR to make things change in Europe, should not be this way, and I can not explain why but it is the way I feel.

I feel that the electric racing is growing, lipos and brushless and their simplicity of use, are a good reason. Happened the same with model airplanes.

I believe the class could grow faster if the prices were kept even lower.

Why are manufacturers still aiming at stupid lightweight cars? I saw the new Yokomo and the first thing that came to my mind was that a six cell NiMh pack would be heavier than the car.

We need stonger cars, so heavier cars, we have already light weight cells, Lipo. We need cars that can survive a crash on the track.

So if we do not need those feather weight cars why still have them in carbon fibre for stupid prices?

Bottom line:

if ROAR have a rule for the price of some motors, why not rule a price for the cars, why not rule the carbon fibre cars out of the races? or allow them only in modified class?

Maybe this should be discussed as world wide subject, so perhaps at IFMAR, I do not know why but I think this should be thought first at ROAR.
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Old 06-05-2008, 06:18 AM   #131
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ROAR and EFRA have always worked closely together, because they have the most influence on the hobby. The three main areas of RC racing are America, Europe, and Asia. Usually as one goes, so does the other 2, with America trailing slightly behind.

RC racing in Europe is much different than here in America. Eurpoe tends to stay within the rules much more than we do. It's more a culture thing than anything else. I don't think we could copy that here.

And you can't blame the manufacturers for making what the racers want. If you're a racer you want the best car possible, regardless of price. X-Ray has capitalized on this by releasing a new car every year, with the latest and greatest updates. Doesn't matter that a T2 is still a great car, to some if you don't have a '008 you're already behind. We can complain all we want about cost. As long as someone buys it, they'll make it.

My suggestion for banning foam tires in TC comes from the fact that the only place where foam tires are used is here in the US. That's why the thick chassis '008 is called the US spec car.
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Old 06-05-2008, 06:24 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nova F1 Racer View Post
OK back to the topic of electric onroad racing rules...

Split into 2 topics: Racers and cars

Racers:
Can/will/ROAR make different driver levels? Like sponsored racers/non-sponsored racers? Driver ability? Age: 0 to 16, 17 to 45, and 45 to old farts? Years in hobby? Gender?

Cars:
1/12 and 1/10, will 1/18 or others be added?
Motors brushed/brushless Stock/ Super stock, mod and open
Batteries: Lipo, nimh and nicd....
bodies? 190 vs 200

Will tires ( foam/rubber ) be added to the ROAR approved list?
How will this work? Do you have hundreds of racers at your local club each week that you think ROAR needs to designate age groups, etc... That's crap. I've seen 13 yr olds with less than a years experience drive better than a 30 yr old guy that has 5 years experience. This is the whole reason behind QUALIFIERS....

Clubs that have a regular attendance should be monitoring racers progress and instruct them on which class to race in based on their placement throughout each race weekend.
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Old 06-05-2008, 06:32 AM   #133
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How will this work? Do you have hundreds of racers at your local club each week that you think ROAR needs to designate age groups, etc... That's crap. I've seen 13 yr olds with less than a years experience drive better than a 30 yr old guy that has 5 years experience. This is the whole reason behind QUALIFIERS....

Clubs that have a regular attendance should be monitoring racers progress and instruct them on which class to race in based on their placement throughout each race weekend.
Are you saying that clubs should tell a racer whick class he/she should run in?

A person's ability generally has not been a factor, examples Drivers license, buying beer, going to a movie, voting and so on.... Age is the deciding factor....
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Old 06-05-2008, 06:58 AM   #134
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Are you saying that clubs should tell a racer whick class he/she should run in?

A person's ability generally has not been a factor, examples Drivers license, buying beer, going to a movie, voting and so on.... Age is the deciding factor....
Not "Tell them" but definitely "Suggest" a class. If you are a regular, I don't think anyone will be angry/upset if you suggest a newbie or rookie sign-up in the Rookie class, if you have one. We've all experienced the newbie signing up for a non-Rookie or Advanced class, only to be disgruntled or discouraged.

On the flip side, if you have a racer signing up in the Rookie Class that can consistently spank everyone else, and also run close enough to the Stock or Advanced guys in laps/laptimes, then other racers should be encouraging that racer to move up to the next faster class.

Getting people signed up in the proper class to begin with will provide them a better learning and driving experience in the end, and they won't feel so bad when the Advanced guys put 8+ laps on them during a race.
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Old 06-05-2008, 07:35 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nova F1 Racer View Post
A person's ability generally has not been a factor, examples Drivers license, buying beer, going to a movie, voting and so on.... Age is the deciding factor....
Most of the age determining factors you have outlined above came about as a result of the general presumption that those of a lesser age did not have the decision-making (ability to do so) skills of their older counterparts.

At the same time motorsports has had long-standing tradition of proving one's ability: rookie tests at Indy, lesser formulas as proving grounds leading to F1, etc.

Might I suggest that instead of turning this thread into another running argument, as seems to pervade discussion boards these days, to instead comeup with your own ideas relative to the offending poster. Otherwise the banter back and forth amounts to little and ultimately gets nothing done other than take up server space.
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