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Old 05-29-2008, 02:41 PM   #76
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Something nobody has mentioned yet is that while LiPo has taken over at the grass-roots level, the manufacturers don't seem to have noticed. I haven't seen a single 1/10 onroad car that's truly designed for LiPo. When a prospective racer shows up and sees cars running batteries that are piled high with lead, what sort of impression does that make? What does he think when all the available RTRs use crystals and AM, while nearly all the racers are using conflict- and glitch-free 2.4 gHz equipment?

No manufacturer is producing an RTR that addresses the needs of a beginning onroad racer. Such an RTR would include:

* plastic tub chassis designed to balance correctly with a LiPo pack
* Johnson silver can motor (slow is good!)
* 2S LiPo and basic AC/DC LiPo charger
* basic 2.4 gHz radio system

Surely Losi (or Associated) could retail such a package for under $400. But it appears that Losi sees more profit potential in selling Mini-sliders and Mini-LSTs and drift cars to bashers than in growing the electric onroad racing population, and they are investing accordingly. Perhaps they are right. But if you are looking for the spark to trigger a new wave of growth in electric onroad, a package as described above in the hands of good local shops/clubs would do it.

What this has to do with ROAR I do not know, sorry.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:42 PM   #77
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IMHO stock needs to be even slower.... ALOT slower
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:56 PM   #78
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Trans Am has helped with a place for guys who are new or who don't want to get involved with the high end of racing. That's a good thing, and it shows, turn out wise.

I agree with Fred B that stock has to go back to what it was--the slow class. We have 19t/13.5/superstock as a ROAR class now for all the sponsored drivers who don't run mod. In fact, we should keep the mod drivers out of superstock.
This is still a hobby, and it's health depends not on paid drivers, or 100% stock guys, or even 50% guys, but the PAYING public. Trying to separate classes so we have some sort of ladder to move through would go a long way to retaining racers in the hobby, and would let the new ones learn before they get eaten alive.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:58 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by MarkBrown View Post
Something nobody has mentioned yet is that while LiPo has taken over at the grass-roots level, the manufacturers don't seem to have noticed. I haven't seen a single 1/10 onroad car that's truly designed for LiPo. When a prospective racer shows up and sees cars running batteries that are piled high with lead, what sort of impression does that make? What does he think when all the available RTRs use crystals and AM, while nearly all the racers are using conflict- and glitch-free 2.4 gHz equipment?

No manufacturer is producing an RTR that addresses the needs of a beginning onroad racer. Such an RTR would include:

* plastic tub chassis designed to balance correctly with a LiPo pack
* Johnson silver can motor (slow is good!)
* 2S LiPo and basic AC/DC LiPo charger
* basic 2.4 gHz radio system

Surely Losi (or Associated) could retail such a package for under $400. But it appears that Losi sees more profit potential in selling Mini-sliders and Mini-LSTs and drift cars to bashers than in growing the electric onroad racing population, and they are investing accordingly. Perhaps they are right. But if you are looking for the spark to trigger a new wave of growth in electric onroad, a package as described above in the hands of good local shops/clubs would do it.

What this has to do with ROAR I do not know, sorry.
They are catching on a bit. Kyosho has 2.4 with their mini-zs now (not touring car unfortunately). Team Magic makes a lipo optimized plastic tub kit which I think retails at $170. Im sure lipo will catch on soon and I believe Losi is doing brushless RTRs now (again not touring car yet). Just need to combine all those at a realistic price point (which I think is the hard part).
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Old 05-29-2008, 03:13 PM   #80
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losi is spending time making screw on plastic parts for their truck so they can come out with a 'new' kit of the month. lets not forget their 18th scale slider, late model and possible 8th scale late model all for the dirt oval. and if i'm not mistaken all the stuff in the last 4-6 months is 2.4G and brushless (where applicable). AE is busy on their GT pan car. don't be surprised if xray has another car, pan or off-road in the works.

let's get one thing straight.

Most Manufacturers are here to sell products to put food on the table.
ROAR is here to provide structure for racing on a somewhat level ground.
Manufacturers don't have to care all that much about what they promote to sell (batteries and motors included in RTRs) seeing how their largest demographic do not see the track. They really don't care. If it was the case that they really did care they would put the race-able equipment with it and offer "upgrades" (like they once did) to the ballistic 5 billion watt brushless motor that Joe Dirt wants to bash up and down the street with. In the end its better business for them to sell a cheap high powered motor/battery in an RTR and rake the money in on parts.

that's what pays the bills.
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Old 05-29-2008, 03:36 PM   #81
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losi is spending time making screw on plastic parts for their truck so they can come out with a 'new' kit of the month. lets not forget their 18th scale slider, late model and possible 8th scale late model all for the dirt oval. and if i'm not mistaken all the stuff in the last 4-6 months is 2.4G and brushless (where applicable). AE is busy on their GT pan car. don't be surprised if xray has another car, pan or off-road in the works.

let's get one thing straight.

Most Manufacturers are here to sell products to put food on the table.
ROAR is here to provide structure for racing on a somewhat level ground.
Manufacturers don't have to care all that much about what they promote to sell (batteries and motors included in RTRs) seeing how their largest demographic do not see the track. They really don't care. If it was the case that they really did care they would put the race-able equipment with it and offer "upgrades" (like they once did) to the ballistic 5 billion watt brushless motor that Joe Dirt wants to bash up and down the street with. In the end its better business for them to sell a cheap high powered motor/battery in an RTR and rake the money in on parts.

that's what pays the bills.
Has anyone seen the new(ish) Losi street beater truck and the ads for it. There is 90% of your market. Not racers. This is what Losi is now marketing to. When was the last time you saw a rtr jrxs type r? It doesn't exist. Last Losi rtr I saw at my LHS was a xxx-s.

Here is the point of my agreement with mason. I watched as someone bought that new Losi street beater truck with high powered motor. He came back in the door about an hour later with it in a plastic bag. He got the replacement parts and went home a happy camper, only to jamb his foot in the door at 5:00 so that he could get more replacement parts. He was having a blast. He had no interest in racing.

As long as there is more of a market for bashers in this NICHE hobby, racers will be a very small niche of that niche market. Its tough to sell a basher on going slower. They get a hobby grade RC to go as fast as possible, then they move on when they get bored.
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Old 05-29-2008, 03:40 PM   #82
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The people that want to go faster than 17.5 can simply run the next faster class. that would be Superstock (13.5 next year). Stock shouldn't be the place for ultra-compeditive racers that want to go "fast". It should be the place for new racers and hobbyists.

That's the thing that I just don't understand. If you want to go faster why not run the next faster ROAR class. Winning in stock should mean nothing (except maybe you're ready for a faster class). Back 20 years ago, that's how it was. We corrected the speed of stock in 91 and I think it needs to happen again. I think that there needs to be a bigger spread between the three classes that we have.

the issue at hand is that stock allows for brushed 27 and 17.5 and anyone who wants to run brushless in stock will be (for the most part) slower than anyone using brushed. As long as these two can mix in one class, there are people who are going to be asking for a faster stock brushless.

and that doesnt even touch on the fact that 17.5 in 2wd offroad is incredibly difficult to gear for without modification and given that its just one single class, manufacturers arent likely to release updated transmissions, spur gears, or motor plates to compensate for that because marketing an item for one type of motor for one single class is usually not profitable. I had reached the pnysical limits of gearing with my b4 and 13.5 and the motor was still only barely getting warm on 6 minute mains. @[email protected]

regardless, i understand the "if you want to go faster race a faster class" theory but thats tip-toeing around a real answer. If stock was indeed supposed to be a slowed down class then (and i know this isnt viable or even fair) but only 17.5 should be the limitation (and, like i said, unlikely for obvious reasons). If affordability is a problem, i can see Novak rebadging their old super sport system as the affordable "stock brushless system" with a 17.5 + super sport ESC for i dunno...$110? *shrugs*

i guess im just thinking of things that just wont happen.
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Old 05-29-2008, 03:51 PM   #83
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if geared correctly, a 17.5 is 99% as fast as a freshly cut and rebrushed stock motor
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Old 05-29-2008, 03:54 PM   #84
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Yes it is. This is my first year racing and i race in spec tt-01 class. our first race in spec had 5 people. Now there is about 9 or 10.
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Old 05-29-2008, 04:39 PM   #85
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I would assume so because of the increasing costs of nitro, but then again electric racing is going up also because of the switch to the more expensive brushless systems and li-po batteries+chargers.
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Old 05-29-2008, 06:54 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Syber Serulean View Post
and that doesnt even touch on the fact that 17.5 in 2wd offroad is incredibly difficult to gear for without modification and given that its just one single class, manufacturers arent likely to release updated transmissions, spur gears, or motor plates to compensate for that because marketing an item for one type of motor for one single class is usually not profitable. I had reached the pnysical limits of gearing with my b4 and 13.5 and the motor was still only barely getting warm on 6 minute mains. @[email protected]:
What is funny is that RPM used to make a 1.85 reduction RC10 stealth conversion for dirt oval many years ago. I think they also made like a 2.4 or 2.6 for monster truck rc10s...the point is that if there is a market, the parts will be out there. Like the guys selling lipo weights to balance your car
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Old 05-29-2008, 07:29 PM   #87
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My post may not be relevant to racing in the USA as I am from Australia but here goes.
Electric racing in my city has in the last 2/3 months made a comback due to the fact our local council has banned nitro vehicles from our track due to noise complaints. This has happened to at least 2 other clubs in other cities in my state. Once nitro is banned it takes a lot of negotiating,money,planning and hard work to find a place deemed as suitable.
Electric was very popular in the past until nitro happened along then declined. With the latest events racers here were forced to return to electric and have embraced lipo/brushless technology with gusto. After seeing the results on the track we all feel electric will remain very strong even with the return of nitro.
As far as a cheap,fun (a lot of fun) class for onroad beginners goes, tamiya 1/10 mini is popular here. The rules are not tamiya but are similar. The main difference being any manufacturers parts can be used. This class is a ton of fun and racers of all skill levels race together and there are very few if any hassles probably due to the fact they are almost indestructable so crashes caused by inexperience rarely cause breakage.

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Old 05-30-2008, 06:14 AM   #88
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and that doesnt even touch on the fact that 17.5 in 2wd offroad is incredibly difficult to gear for without modification and given that its just one single class, manufacturers arent likely to release updated transmissions, spur gears, or motor plates to compensate for that because marketing an item for one type of motor for one single class is usually not profitable. I had reached the pnysical limits of gearing with my b4 and 13.5 and the motor was still only barely getting warm on 6 minute mains. @[email protected]
It's really not that expensive to make a new spur gear. I know for a fact that with a little dremel work you can fit a 37/78 on a B4 (with a gear cover) and it will be overgeared for most tracks with a 17.5 and LiPo. If they made a 72 you wouldn't need to hack up the motor plate at all.

In any case, I think that stock in sedan needs to slow down. I seldom run offroad so I can't say there but with sedan, I've seen the new people struggle to get around the track. I've seen the 100% sponsored racers at big races.

We shouldn't force the racer to run a specific class but we should make classes that encourage sponsored racers not to race at an entry level. I've been racing for almost 20 years now and I can tell you that up until about 5 years ago winning a big stock race ment nothing. It ment that you were ready for mod. What changed? It's the speed. Almost all of the classes are running as fast in stock as mod was 10 years ago.
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Old 05-30-2008, 01:22 PM   #89
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As for the question about why a 13.5 - yes, that was answered months ago in several locations on RC Tech and other forums. And, it is the closest possible and this is why we allowed 10.5 in 2008 in SS so people wouldn't have to rush out and buy new motors when the rule books hit mailboxes. It is fair and I will stand by that decision.
I'm looking at the ROAR online rule book and I don't see anything that says 10.5 brushless can be used in Super Stock. Only 13.5. Where can I find this information?
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Old 05-30-2008, 01:36 PM   #90
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I'm looking at the ROAR online rule book and I don't see anything that says 10.5 brushless can be used in Super Stock. Only 13.5. Where can I find this information?
You dont believe the president of ROAR??
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