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Old 05-29-2008, 04:39 AM   #46
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Up here, we have a gathering of about 30 racers and it just keeps growing. I'm not sure what the numbers for the other race clubs are but I'm sure they're pretty strong aswell. One club I know has allowed brushless motors and ROAR-approved lipos into competition, so that will only help.

And as for this ROAR-only forum, that's a bad idea and sends the wrong message. Personally I find it off putting that certain members will only acknowledge what you say if you have a roar membership. That's elitism and treating non-members like they're second-class people is just plain wrong. That behavior is what makes people like myself think twice about getting a membership.

I pay my dues just like everyone else and I despise it when I am looked down upon simply because I don't "have a membership". Some decency and friendliness would make things go much further.
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Old 05-29-2008, 07:12 AM   #47
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Electric is growing in Michigan. Dirt racing is growing and when I go to a dirt race I see new people racing and kids racing.

ROAR has done so much in the last year to make things better. LiPo, brushless, and a new attitude.

I think the rules we have for dirt are fine. The speeds, and costs are fine and allow new people and kids to race.

The problem around here is with onroad sedan foam tire. It's either a few guys running or it's dead and gone. What's wrong with foam sedan racing? Almost everything: Light bodies, One week tires (or one run), Smelly traction compounds, New cars every year, Car and part costs (most cars), 100% sponsored stock drivers, and my personal fave...the slowest class is too fast for new people to handle.

How to fix it? The bodies are easy. The tires are easy (purple and plaid). Odorless traction (Paragon makes that also). So, the cost and speed of the slowest cars are the biggest problems that we have. We can't control cost very easily (retail price limits don't work). The sponsored drivers will run what their sponsors tell them to and that's like herding cats. Take the prestige out of stock sedan and the sponsored drivers will move up. 21.5 as your slowest sedan class would make that happen and it would let new people be able to race at the speeds we had 10 years ago.
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Old 05-29-2008, 07:37 AM   #48
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Up here, we have a gathering of about 30 racers and it just keeps growing. I'm not sure what the numbers for the other race clubs are but I'm sure they're pretty strong aswell. One club I know has allowed brushless motors and ROAR-approved lipos into competition, so that will only help.

And as for this ROAR-only forum, that's a bad idea and sends the wrong message. Personally I find it off putting that certain members will only acknowledge what you say if you have a roar membership. That's elitism and treating non-members like they're second-class people is just plain wrong. That behavior is what makes people like myself think twice about getting a membership.

I pay my dues just like everyone else and I despise it when I am looked down upon simply because I don't "have a membership". Some decency and friendliness would make things go much further.
In all fairness, NovaF1 mentions this to avoid the ROAR bashing that inevitably happens in forums when ROAR is a topic. Somebody will have an issue and that person does not have the communication skills that others have and their keyboard strength is over used.

ROAR uses the website for official statements, as per the bylaws, and uses forums for communication. I have a tendency to over burden myself by following too many forums and am criticized for not following enough... oh well... LOL

As for the question about why a 13.5 - yes, that was answered months ago in several locations on RC Tech and other forums. And, it is the closest possible and this is why we allowed 10.5 in 2008 in SS so people wouldn't have to rush out and buy new motors when the rule books hit mailboxes. It is fair and I will stand by that decision.
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Old 05-29-2008, 07:59 AM   #49
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I guess the whole topic of this thread has kind of shifted.

In our area, we have seen a bunch of Nitro racers embrace the new technology of Bl/Lipo, and bought cars because of it.

Our club racing numbers are all over the place though... and here is why

We have too much racing, at any given weekend, we have a state series race for Electric On Road, Nitro On Road, Electric Off Road, Nitro Off Road, or Oval,

There are WAAAAY too many National Level Events that people are either attending ,preparing for, or recovering from.

The issue with Rubber Tire supply, has made decent spec tires non-existent ( that looks to be coming to an end )

Our program does not put enough time and effort into a low cost entry level class....

On another rant.....

IMHO, this whole WORLD GT/PRO 10 thing is only making things worse.... The cars are 3/4 the cost of a TC, need the same support equipment, and a tire truer... They are not cheap.... run Foam tires that are not cheap... This is not a beginners class....

Sure they are fun to race... but.... we need help on the bottom end... and competitive racers just do not see it....
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Old 05-29-2008, 08:09 AM   #50
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The problem around here is with onroad sedan foam tire. What's wrong with foam sedan racing? One week tires (or one run), New cars every year, Car and part costs (most cars), and my personal fave...the slowest class is too fast for new people to handle.

How to fix it? So, the cost and speed of the slowest cars are the biggest problems that we have. We can't control cost very easily (retail price limits don't work). 21.5 as your slowest sedan class would make that happen and it would let new people be able to race at the speeds we had 10 years ago.

In my area TC seems to be spiraling down. One asphalt track struggling with very low turnout. Another track with hobby shop, indoor carpet and outdoor asphalt went to oval only due to low TC turnout. The only one that seems to be gaining is a club/parking lot group. BL, LiPo and the VTA class is becoming a significant factor in their growth. Most use 21.5BL/LiPo and a few use a Brushed Stock Motor with 4-cell NiMi. Most are using an older TC chassis (T2R, FK05, TC3 Etc). Low cost, slow speeds, close racing = FUN!

As for some of the other stuff, I like rubber tire (even on carpet) and most everyone I race with has made the jump to BL/LiPo. A top level TC chassis is outrageously priced. I use an XRAY T2R ($200), but they don't make that anymore. Though the Cyclone S is available for around $130.

There are ways to survive and I think ROAR is moving in a good direction with BL/Lipo and particularly good with their new attitude and outlook on the hobby.
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Old 05-29-2008, 08:20 AM   #51
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Example On-roader Mini: Over priced

$210 Competitive kit or upgrading a RTR with racing necessities.
$150 Brushless
$80 Lipo Battery X 2
$19 Extra Set of tires (all 4 combined)
+++++++++++++++++
$460 (Again over estimated by large margin)


I'm not understanding idea of cost just being as much as 1/10th?
Just depends how competitive you get. Ive heard of people with $1000 in a mini. Heck Ive seen $1000 Mini-Zs. Im not saying its worth that or needed. But neither is a lot of the stuff in 1/10 TC.
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Old 05-29-2008, 08:30 AM   #52
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I haven't been around R/C racing for about 8 years, but for the past few months I have been racing every couple of weeks (that is when one of our parking lot tracks races). I was never drawn to on-road at all until the brushless/lipo "movement." Not only are the cars easier to work on, the only maintenance at all is just normal wear and tear on your chassis. I run a TC5 with Novak brushless power and Lipo's.....I don't have to do anything except choose which tires to use. We have a pretty healthy parking lot scene in San Diego, and it seems to keep growing. It is much more fun for me to just worry about being faster around the track and not worry about any of the other maintenance issues.
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Old 05-29-2008, 09:28 AM   #53
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One thing I see is this. Track closings and lack of new racers is due mostly to those not wanting to change or not listen to the local racer (the ones that support and keep your local track open). Our local on road track here has always been ridiculed for having 3 stock classes. We have Sportsman, Stock and Pro-Stock and by doing this you give every ability level a chance to get better and win before they are put in with the sponsored drivers. We have spent 3 years changing our rules to best fit our LOCAL racers. We abide by ROAR rules for the basics but then tweak them as we see fit. This is what we have done to keep on-road racing going and it has worked very well.

I think if classes are done correctly cost doesn’t play a role in racing until you get to the upper level. This is the biggest thing that has helped our touring car racing thrive. If you make classes per ability it takes the cost out of it till you get into our Pro-Stock class and by then you know how to work on your equipment and drive. The only downside to this is you always get the one or two people that sand bag to win. Our way of fixing this is if you win 4 a-mains you step up to the next class.

So in short I think the biggest trouble facing electric on-road is the classes themselves. There is no where for the beginner racer to start and feel competitive on a low budget. Even with the way classes are set up now with 17.5, 13.5, 10.5 you still have sponsored elite drivers running all 3. If you make a class for the beginner they will come.

With the growing cost of everything now-a-days you must plant the seed of winning into the newbie to get them to stick with the hobby. If they spend $400 on a RTR there is nowhere for them to currently race per ROAR rules because of motor, body and tire issues. Now they spend another $300 to be ROAR legal only to go out and break and lose they more than likely won’t be interested but on the other hand if they win or place top 3 on their first outing with their RTR they will be back on a regular basis. That is our clubs thoughts behind our classes and it is proven to work here locally.
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Old 05-29-2008, 09:46 AM   #54
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One thing I see is this. Track closings and lack of new racers is due mostly to those not wanting to change or not listen to the local racer (the ones that support and keep your local track open). Our local on road track here has always been ridiculed for having 3 stock classes. We have Sportsman, Stock and Pro-Stock and by doing this you give every ability level a chance to get better and win before they are put in with the sponsored drivers. We have spent 3 years changing our rules to best fit our LOCAL racers. We abide by ROAR rules for the basics but then tweak them as we see fit. This is what we have done to keep on-road racing going and it has worked very well.

I think if classes are done correctly cost doesn’t play a role in racing until you get to the upper level. This is the biggest thing that has helped our touring car racing thrive. If you make classes per ability it takes the cost out of it till you get into our Pro-Stock class and by then you know how to work on your equipment and drive. The only downside to this is you always get the one or two people that sand bag to win. Our way of fixing this is if you win 4 a-mains you step up to the next class.

So in short I think the biggest trouble facing electric on-road is the classes themselves. There is no where for the beginner racer to start and feel competitive on a low budget. Even with the way classes are set up now with 17.5, 13.5, 10.5 you still have sponsored elite drivers running all 3. If you make a class for the beginner they will come.

With the growing cost of everything now-a-days you must plant the seed of winning into the newbie to get them to stick with the hobby. If they spend $400 on a RTR there is nowhere for them to currently race per ROAR rules because of motor, body and tire issues. Now they spend another $300 to be ROAR legal only to go out and break and lose they more than likely won’t be interested but on the other hand if they win or place top 3 on their first outing with their RTR they will be back on a regular basis. That is our clubs thoughts behind our classes and it is proven to work here locally.
this all makes sense. the only problem is convinsing the lhs to run mulitple classes with only 2-4 people in each. but I do agree that would get more people in because they have a better chance to "win". it sucks to spend the money and never see the possibility to even win a race for the first couple of years.
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Old 05-29-2008, 10:21 AM   #55
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this all makes sense. the only problem is convinsing the lhs to run mulitple classes with only 2-4 people in each. but I do agree that would get more people in because they have a better chance to "win". it sucks to spend the money and never see the possibility to even win a race for the first couple of years.

Here is one thing to think about. You say 2 - 4 in each class. Does it matter to the LHS? Those 2 or 3 people still pay to race. Why not let them get their money’s worth by being with the same skill level of racer instead of wreaking havoc in the Pro-Stock class trying to learn to drive. May make the day a little longer but who cares.

Here is what we have found. Those 2 or 3 people have fun racing. They get better and enjoy racing and start racing another class because of the money they saved getting started to begin with. Now they are having a lot more fun and invite their buddies and it starts all over.

Some stick with it and some leave but usually for unseen reasons

I just think ROAR needs to come up with some sort of low budget, beginner level class that somehow targets RTR cars. I think this would be a great idea.
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Old 05-29-2008, 10:47 AM   #56
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Just depends how competitive you get. Ive heard of people with $1000 in a mini. Heck Ive seen $1000 Mini-Zs. Im not saying its worth that or needed. But neither is a lot of the stuff in 1/10 TC.
Are you sure you not mixing up those bashers or shelf queens (not racers) who buy ever single aluminum bling part to make their vehicle into a metallic colored, over weight, and bad handling monstrosity?

I'm telling ya, you would be hard pressed to spend as much equally into a 1/18th as a 1/10th. Especially for racing purposes.
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Old 05-29-2008, 11:01 AM   #57
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I should have added the "ROAR members" can post, non-ROAR members can read only. If they want to post let them join ROAR....
I think everyone caught you opinion on the matter in your first post.

But as a ROAR member since the mid '80s I'll suggest to you that many of the problems the organization has had over the years have been as a result of similar "It's our club and we'll do as we want, so join or shut up" attitude.
Getting new people has a lot to do with not only listening to what THEY have to say before they join, since there's little reason for them to join if they don't feel included beforehand, as well as opening the organization's eyes to how things are being done without their input.
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Old 05-29-2008, 11:03 AM   #58
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Are you sure you not mixing up those bashers or shelf queens (not racers) who buy ever single aluminum bling part to make their vehicle into a metallic colored, over weight, and bad handling monstrosity?

I'm telling ya, you would be hard pressed to spend as much equally into a 1/18th as a 1/10th. Especially for racing purposes.
http://www.pro-z.com/ He builds fully optioned Mini-z and Micro-t racers with carbon components... Not kidding.
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Old 05-29-2008, 11:10 AM   #59
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At our track, we started a beginner class with the HPI cyclone something (sorry forget the name) and it is all stock. a RTR cost 350$ and it is pretty fast. we got a few more racer this years because of this class.

Mini is way less expensive then 1/10. I'm in the hobby for around 6 years...running mini and 1/10 and I spend way to much money on 1/10 sedan compare to 1/18 onroad so please do not tell me that mini are expensive
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Old 05-29-2008, 11:11 AM   #60
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The best way to fix the whole sponsored driver in stock issue is to take the prestige out of winning a stock race. Forcing racers to run a class is pretty lame as far as I'm concerned.

If the classes are set-up in a way that actually makes sense. The slowest class will be the beginner class. It will be slow enough that there are no bragging rights for the win other than I'm ready for the next class up. Not all classes need to be slowed but indoor sedan does.

Stock should be for the beginners, and hobbyists (people on a budget or that just want to have fun racing). Superstock should be the place for the guys that want to go "fast".
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