1LikesCRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks
03-09-2010, 10:55 AM
#1396
Snellemin-Thanks. Keep us updated on that 1/8 motor install project.
Spring71-Nice Track. Good luck!
Melbatoast-Thanks for the report. Melbatoast helped pioneer a couple of changes to the3-link kit including a better Panhard bar with more gear clearance and an improved upper shock mount. Both of these changes will be incorporated in the kits.
Note again if you run a double top plate or the CRC 4 mm top plate and an SRC 3-link, you should run without the center post. This will give a neater install, even more Panhard bar clearance, and eliminates some instances of chatter on slipping the tire on forward traction.
Spring71-Nice Track. Good luck!
Melbatoast-Thanks for the report. Melbatoast helped pioneer a couple of changes to the3-link kit including a better Panhard bar with more gear clearance and an improved upper shock mount. Both of these changes will be incorporated in the kits.
Note again if you run a double top plate or the CRC 4 mm top plate and an SRC 3-link, you should run without the center post. This will give a neater install, even more Panhard bar clearance, and eliminates some instances of chatter on slipping the tire on forward traction.
Last edited by John Stranahan; 03-09-2010 at 01:07 PM.
03-09-2010, 01:58 PM
#1397
I was asked by e-mail what class and equipment would be best for the JS Pro 10 which is a wide pan car.
Where, What Cars
Wide pan cars are run in Europe, Canada, and some small pockets in the US including Colorado. Manufactures of wide pans include CRC Gen X 10 with their widening kit. the Darkside Motorsports I-force with widening kit, In Europe the Hatzenbach and possibly others and of course the JS Pro 10 kit on a CRC Gen X 10 chassis from Stranahan-RC.
ROAR and IFMAR class
The GTP class this car runs in is described on page 55 of the attached roar rule book pages. GTP bodies, including the Peugeot HD 905B at Stormer, are used.
My suggestions for equipment
For fast outdoor work on a large outdoor track (that is what I do with the car) I suggest an LRP SPX8 speed control. This is a 1/10 size but 1/8 capable speed control. I tested it recently and was satisfied that it could handle the high amp draw in high traction conditions. At the moment there are no rules against running it in open mod. It should work fine with stock motors. At tracks where stock motors are run with huge timing advance gamesmanship, then something like the Tekin RS4 pro or Black diamond (CRC) may be more suitable. The black diamond may actually work with a 3.5 at high grip, I just have not tested it due to its expense. I have used also a Tekin RX8 on the top strap with good effect. It is quite rugged and $40 cheaper than the LRP right now. It is 1.5 ounces heavy though. Use 2S 5000 battery with a high discharge capability (like the Thunderpower 40 C or 50 C) for hot weather or high traction high speed outdoor work on large tracks.
In stock you want a high voltage cell of whatever cell number they are racing. You want the maximum capacity allowed as long as you can stay underweight. Thunderpower leads the pack here in voltage as well.
I use the LRP X12 3.5. It works well with the Tekin RX8 or LRP SPX8. The Novak's Ballistic series should work with the LRP but do not work with the Tekin for some reason. All of these are sensored.
Tires
BSR, CRC spec, Jayco spec, RC4less, Pink rears purple fronts with good traction. Try CRC 1/10 World GT for medium traction. Try Jayco lilac rears for 10.5 asphalt with medium or better traction; It is a little hard and rolls extremely well through the corners.
See the first page of this thread for more links.
Motor
A good starter motor outside on a big track is a 10.5 running 2 cell. You will be only 2-3 seconds slower than all out mod touring cars. Inside a 13.5 1 cell may be enough. Some of the world GT's run that.
A wide pan will outperform a 200 mm car on any road track. In high traction conditions with a good driver it is up with the fast Nitros. On the velodrome a 200 mm car has less air resistance.
Threads
Note there are two other wide pan threads on this website. One is a new and slowly building thread, the 235 mm thread in electric on road. The other is the huge 1/10 pan thread misplaced over in the oval and large scale section. There is also this thread.
These are 2010 rules
Where, What Cars
Wide pan cars are run in Europe, Canada, and some small pockets in the US including Colorado. Manufactures of wide pans include CRC Gen X 10 with their widening kit. the Darkside Motorsports I-force with widening kit, In Europe the Hatzenbach and possibly others and of course the JS Pro 10 kit on a CRC Gen X 10 chassis from Stranahan-RC.
ROAR and IFMAR class
The GTP class this car runs in is described on page 55 of the attached roar rule book pages. GTP bodies, including the Peugeot HD 905B at Stormer, are used.
My suggestions for equipment
For fast outdoor work on a large outdoor track (that is what I do with the car) I suggest an LRP SPX8 speed control. This is a 1/10 size but 1/8 capable speed control. I tested it recently and was satisfied that it could handle the high amp draw in high traction conditions. At the moment there are no rules against running it in open mod. It should work fine with stock motors. At tracks where stock motors are run with huge timing advance gamesmanship, then something like the Tekin RS4 pro or Black diamond (CRC) may be more suitable. The black diamond may actually work with a 3.5 at high grip, I just have not tested it due to its expense. I have used also a Tekin RX8 on the top strap with good effect. It is quite rugged and $40 cheaper than the LRP right now. It is 1.5 ounces heavy though. Use 2S 5000 battery with a high discharge capability (like the Thunderpower 40 C or 50 C) for hot weather or high traction high speed outdoor work on large tracks.
In stock you want a high voltage cell of whatever cell number they are racing. You want the maximum capacity allowed as long as you can stay underweight. Thunderpower leads the pack here in voltage as well.
I use the LRP X12 3.5. It works well with the Tekin RX8 or LRP SPX8. The Novak's Ballistic series should work with the LRP but do not work with the Tekin for some reason. All of these are sensored.
Tires
BSR, CRC spec, Jayco spec, RC4less, Pink rears purple fronts with good traction. Try CRC 1/10 World GT for medium traction. Try Jayco lilac rears for 10.5 asphalt with medium or better traction; It is a little hard and rolls extremely well through the corners.
See the first page of this thread for more links.
Motor
A good starter motor outside on a big track is a 10.5 running 2 cell. You will be only 2-3 seconds slower than all out mod touring cars. Inside a 13.5 1 cell may be enough. Some of the world GT's run that.
A wide pan will outperform a 200 mm car on any road track. In high traction conditions with a good driver it is up with the fast Nitros. On the velodrome a 200 mm car has less air resistance.
Threads
Note there are two other wide pan threads on this website. One is a new and slowly building thread, the 235 mm thread in electric on road. The other is the huge 1/10 pan thread misplaced over in the oval and large scale section. There is also this thread.
These are 2010 rules
Last edited by John Stranahan; 03-09-2010 at 05:50 PM.
03-09-2010, 05:31 PM
#1398
Battle Axe, New Part, Wide Cross Plate Solid. CRC #1970
I just got in, for inspection, this neat new part for your Battle Axe 2.0. It is going to do a lot to keep the screws tight on the uprights and also provide fine side to side adjustment of fender mounted body post. The pic shows it on a Battle Axe with the 3-link rear end underway.
I just got in, for inspection, this neat new part for your Battle Axe 2.0. It is going to do a lot to keep the screws tight on the uprights and also provide fine side to side adjustment of fender mounted body post. The pic shows it on a Battle Axe with the 3-link rear end underway.
Last edited by John Stranahan; 03-09-2010 at 05:46 PM.
03-09-2010, 10:58 PM
#1400
MWC5- You are very welcome.
JS Pro 200 kit on CRC Battle Axe 2.0
Here are a couple of pics of the latest prototype. I expect final parts to be shipped to me this week. The complete car will have, the SRC Heavy duty offset pod, the 3-link rear end, the Dual A-arm front end, the Shortie bumper and CRC's stiff foam bumper with mounting kit. I have used steel screws where I like steel screws and Aluminum screws in places that have not given me any trouble. The center post on the front of the rear pod is omitted. The pod top plate is much straighter than the centered pod one so it should survive the task. The Panhard bar is moved farther forward than previous editions for more monster pinion clearance. A similar sample is out being tested in New York. I will build this up further and give a weight. (36.8 ounces with voltage increaser from Novak, see pic 3 with body posts and body)
So what will you gain. More mechanical traction will allow the use of harder tires for less rolling friction in the 1 cell classes. Best gains will be on asphalt.
I like that new rear crossplate and will order some more. The speed control will fit under the left side without a fan. I especially like the micro side Body post adjustments available from the closely spaced holes.
JS Pro 200 kit on CRC Battle Axe 2.0
Here are a couple of pics of the latest prototype. I expect final parts to be shipped to me this week. The complete car will have, the SRC Heavy duty offset pod, the 3-link rear end, the Dual A-arm front end, the Shortie bumper and CRC's stiff foam bumper with mounting kit. I have used steel screws where I like steel screws and Aluminum screws in places that have not given me any trouble. The center post on the front of the rear pod is omitted. The pod top plate is much straighter than the centered pod one so it should survive the task. The Panhard bar is moved farther forward than previous editions for more monster pinion clearance. A similar sample is out being tested in New York. I will build this up further and give a weight. (36.8 ounces with voltage increaser from Novak, see pic 3 with body posts and body)
So what will you gain. More mechanical traction will allow the use of harder tires for less rolling friction in the 1 cell classes. Best gains will be on asphalt.
I like that new rear crossplate and will order some more. The speed control will fit under the left side without a fan. I especially like the micro side Body post adjustments available from the closely spaced holes.
Last edited by John Stranahan; 03-22-2010 at 02:52 PM.
.
Leigh
03-10-2010, 04:51 PM
#1402
Lee Brushless-You are welcome. They don't really run them at my track either, but the wide pan is by far the most enjoyable car I have to practice with. It's always with me at the track.
Wide Pan Track Test
LRP SPX8 Shines
LRP X12 rotor explosion
We had rain monday so I retreated the track with a little more sugar than normal this time to achieve high traction, similar to what I had Sunday after 18,000 or more Nitro laps over 5 days had seasoned the track to super high traction.
I spun the back wheel by hand since I had a stopage at last pack and got the sickening high friction smooth resistance. Something is amiss in the motor. The rotor in the LRP X12 3.5 had exploded and that is what had thermalled the LRP SPX8 to a stop last session. This raises my confidence in the suitability of this speed control for this task. There was no damage to it. Here is a pic of the rotor. I was able to remove it, reoil the bearings, reinstall a new rotor and had 4 great long runs. The motor was coming out at 186F or so from 6 minute or more runs.
So what explodes a rotor. Firstly RPM. The early X11 rotor used to explode regularly in the touring car. I would up the gear (pinion) just a bit each time. I went through 4 rotors before they offered the Nickel plated high strength rotor they now have. A second factor is magnetic pull. If the motor is drawing 200 amps at full throttle (tested on my dyno) then there is a huge magnetic pull created inside. Usually a combination of both kills the rotor although the new rotors are pretty strong. My pan car is already geared to the moon at 14/90. Lowering the gear will raise the RPM at the end of the straight, but will reduce the amp draw a little. Anyway it stays at 14/90. The car was just a rocket today. High straightaway speed and good lap times.
I started out with too much steering traction. I raised the front roll center just a bit by moving the outer A-arms up one spacer. It was trivially easy on the JS pro 10 to make a roll center change. I went to double purples but the increased my steering throw a little. I checked and made sure the car turned equal diameter circles on the track. About 3 feet in diameter. The steering was now excellent. I turned some fast laps and completed three more packs this way. Tire wear was low. I reduced brakes to about 30% for smoother transition from braking into cornering.
Wide Pan Track Test
LRP SPX8 Shines
LRP X12 rotor explosion
We had rain monday so I retreated the track with a little more sugar than normal this time to achieve high traction, similar to what I had Sunday after 18,000 or more Nitro laps over 5 days had seasoned the track to super high traction.
I spun the back wheel by hand since I had a stopage at last pack and got the sickening high friction smooth resistance. Something is amiss in the motor. The rotor in the LRP X12 3.5 had exploded and that is what had thermalled the LRP SPX8 to a stop last session. This raises my confidence in the suitability of this speed control for this task. There was no damage to it. Here is a pic of the rotor. I was able to remove it, reoil the bearings, reinstall a new rotor and had 4 great long runs. The motor was coming out at 186F or so from 6 minute or more runs.
So what explodes a rotor. Firstly RPM. The early X11 rotor used to explode regularly in the touring car. I would up the gear (pinion) just a bit each time. I went through 4 rotors before they offered the Nickel plated high strength rotor they now have. A second factor is magnetic pull. If the motor is drawing 200 amps at full throttle (tested on my dyno) then there is a huge magnetic pull created inside. Usually a combination of both kills the rotor although the new rotors are pretty strong. My pan car is already geared to the moon at 14/90. Lowering the gear will raise the RPM at the end of the straight, but will reduce the amp draw a little. Anyway it stays at 14/90. The car was just a rocket today. High straightaway speed and good lap times.
I started out with too much steering traction. I raised the front roll center just a bit by moving the outer A-arms up one spacer. It was trivially easy on the JS pro 10 to make a roll center change. I went to double purples but the increased my steering throw a little. I checked and made sure the car turned equal diameter circles on the track. About 3 feet in diameter. The steering was now excellent. I turned some fast laps and completed three more packs this way. Tire wear was low. I reduced brakes to about 30% for smoother transition from braking into cornering.
03-10-2010, 10:00 PM
#1403
JS Pro 200 Kit on CRC Battle Axe 2.0 final weight
Here is another picture of the kit with electronics installed. These include the LRP SXX speed control. Novak voltage increasing circuit for the BEC. HV Novak 10.5. Hitec Mighty Mini servo. 36.8 ounce with body and body posts and clips. You will need to add the transponder and maybe that very good CRC stiff foam Bumper.
Here is another picture of the kit with electronics installed. These include the LRP SXX speed control. Novak voltage increasing circuit for the BEC. HV Novak 10.5. Hitec Mighty Mini servo. 36.8 ounce with body and body posts and clips. You will need to add the transponder and maybe that very good CRC stiff foam Bumper.
Last edited by John Stranahan; 03-22-2010 at 02:51 PM.
03-21-2010, 10:11 PM
#1404
Wide Pan News
Common Sense RC, 6mm connectors
I thought I would show a photo of the new plugs on the wide pan. See the second photo. A plug failure on the touring car actually prompted this change. The plugs have many nice features.
They don't have fingers that make the plug loose spring tension with high current. Instead, they have tapered slots that make the male part of the plug wedge into the female end.
The soldering end is walled off from the main plug.
The plug is short and compact, but is 6 mm in diameter.
The plug comes with big heavy shrink wrap that goes on after soldering.
Probably could be rated to 200 amps; A similar model from castle is. I could not find ratings on their web site. It produced a very neat install on the JS Pro 10 wide pan.
The new plugs are at the bottom of the first pic. The plugs in the pic are rated worst at top and best at bottom. More details and a comparison of different plugs on my TC track test here.
JS Pro 200 kit on CRC Battle Axe 2.0
I put the new kit on the bench for a roll center measurement. See the third photo. I had previously set up the shims on the kingpins at the track for the traction I desired. The roll center is .3 in the photo. Just below the chassis. Moving the upper A-arms outer ends down one spacer will lower it as will moving the lower A-arms outer end up one spacer. Making both moves will put the roll center at the ground. I Have an Excell Spreadsheet that helps you calculate the roll center, after you have made some measurements on the bench. Send me an e-mail for a copy. I will put it on my website next week some time.
Common Sense RC, 6mm connectors
I thought I would show a photo of the new plugs on the wide pan. See the second photo. A plug failure on the touring car actually prompted this change. The plugs have many nice features.
They don't have fingers that make the plug loose spring tension with high current. Instead, they have tapered slots that make the male part of the plug wedge into the female end.
The soldering end is walled off from the main plug.
The plug is short and compact, but is 6 mm in diameter.
The plug comes with big heavy shrink wrap that goes on after soldering.
Probably could be rated to 200 amps; A similar model from castle is. I could not find ratings on their web site. It produced a very neat install on the JS Pro 10 wide pan.
The new plugs are at the bottom of the first pic. The plugs in the pic are rated worst at top and best at bottom. More details and a comparison of different plugs on my TC track test here.
JS Pro 200 kit on CRC Battle Axe 2.0
I put the new kit on the bench for a roll center measurement. See the third photo. I had previously set up the shims on the kingpins at the track for the traction I desired. The roll center is .3 in the photo. Just below the chassis. Moving the upper A-arms outer ends down one spacer will lower it as will moving the lower A-arms outer end up one spacer. Making both moves will put the roll center at the ground. I Have an Excell Spreadsheet that helps you calculate the roll center, after you have made some measurements on the bench. Send me an e-mail for a copy. I will put it on my website next week some time.
Last edited by John Stranahan; 03-22-2010 at 09:56 PM.
03-21-2010, 10:31 PM
#1405
I use the same 6mm plugs on my high power/ high amperage setups. Very good stuff. I use the 3.5 and 4mm squirl cage plugs in my lower power stuff. I found that the Castle 4mm plugs can hold near 70A continuous without heating up to the point of unsoldering, like the squirl cage plugs.
03-21-2010, 11:54 PM
#1406
Hey John,
Grab yourself a McAllister or Windtunnel "High Speed" oval body, and a set of SILVER BSR EHW Capped tires, and bring that car to our **ALLSTAR SHOOTOUT** May 22-23 at the ENCINO VELODROME here in Sunny Southern California!!
We should have some racers from Japan again this year, and I bet this car would excite the heck out of some of them!!
Grab yourself a McAllister or Windtunnel "High Speed" oval body, and a set of SILVER BSR EHW Capped tires, and bring that car to our **ALLSTAR SHOOTOUT** May 22-23 at the ENCINO VELODROME here in Sunny Southern California!!
We should have some racers from Japan again this year, and I bet this car would excite the heck out of some of them!!
03-22-2010, 10:12 AM
#1407
Thanks for the posts guys.
SWtour-I had the front end in the hands of one of your velodrome guys, but his family health issues prevented the testing. I would love to go try it out on the velodrome, but my poor health prohibits much travel. Possibly the JS Pro200 kit on a Gen X 10 would be the better choice on the velodrome. I expect to have all the parts later this week. Troy has shipped them.
SWtour-I had the front end in the hands of one of your velodrome guys, but his family health issues prevented the testing. I would love to go try it out on the velodrome, but my poor health prohibits much travel. Possibly the JS Pro200 kit on a Gen X 10 would be the better choice on the velodrome. I expect to have all the parts later this week. Troy has shipped them.
03-22-2010, 04:52 PM
#1408
SWtour -Speaking of Super Speedways. I got a report, today, from Japan, that one of my 3-link customers improved his lap times on the Super Speedway with it. He is ordering two dual A-arm front ends later this week to test.
Last edited by John Stranahan; 03-22-2010 at 09:57 PM.
03-22-2010, 10:58 PM
#1409
John,
that was my buddy Steve... I never got a chance to see it while he had it.
The car looks like it would be fun to play with - I would have loved something like this 20 years ago when I still enjoyed turning the wrenches. (Now a car like that would have to come with a MECHANIC/CREW CHIEF!)
that was my buddy Steve... I never got a chance to see it while he had it.
The car looks like it would be fun to play with - I would have loved something like this 20 years ago when I still enjoyed turning the wrenches. (Now a car like that would have to come with a MECHANIC/CREW CHIEF!)
03-23-2010, 12:27 PM
#1410
Just one thing to say. You don't need a crew chief to run a 3-link dual A-arm car. The car is not complex. It is simpler than a 5 shock car. Simpler to tune than even a center pivot side link 3 shock car. Heck you already know how to tune the front end if you are on the velodrome. Anyone who has run late model oval or TC3 based oval cars on the dirt knows how to set it up. Anyone who has run an off-road car or any other type (not a pan car) of on-road car can set it up. Hell chances are you will just throw it down and it will run fine as I have set it up myself on the track. Now if you take it and do funny stuff like push on it with your finger and set it up on the bench to feel like your T-plate car, before you drive it, then you will have a little trouble. Instead you drive the car and make very small changes (mostly to tire hardness on foams). That fellow from Japan improved his lap times on the velodrome with the 3-link without a single setup e-mail. (I understand that old farts like myself don't like to change cars.)
Gen X 10
I just finished what I think is a nice Web Page on the Gen X 10. If you are new to the thread, and shopping around, you might want to check it out. There are 12 photos and text, including two with full electronics setups for different types of track. There is a photo of a single shock mod that may work better than damper tubes outside on a really dirty track like I run on.
http://www.stranahan-rc.com/GenX10.html
Gen X 10
I just finished what I think is a nice Web Page on the Gen X 10. If you are new to the thread, and shopping around, you might want to check it out. There are 12 photos and text, including two with full electronics setups for different types of track. There is a photo of a single shock mod that may work better than damper tubes outside on a really dirty track like I run on.
http://www.stranahan-rc.com/GenX10.html
Last edited by John Stranahan; 03-24-2010 at 11:57 AM.
