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Old 06-08-2008, 04:59 PM   #91
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Rear Pod Gen X 10

A lot of redesign has gone into the rear pod to lower the center of gravity and to make clearance for the numerous wires in sensored brushless motors. The final result is truly a work of art and deserves a picture all by itself.

Note that every screw in this view has backed out on the Battle Axe. The pod being mostly unsprung has a lot of vibration. What I do is: while the screw is started but about 1/16 inch from seated, I put some blue loctite paste under the head. This will secure the screw while still letting it be easy to remove later. The loctite fills the graphite hole preventing wear from movement. Secure those steel screws to the side link ballstuds the same way. One backed out just today.

I will note that the manual does not recommend loctite on aluminum to aluminum applications, and I agree not to get it on the threads. I have not had a problem with the method I suggested.

The second pic shows the completed system that controls rear roll. You can see the two small white progressive tweak springs down low. These are adjusted by long allen screws through the little side plates. These side plates and tapered posts are a definite strength and appearance improvement over the old Pantoura. Above them going to the top plate are two red Damper Tubes. These tubes are simple devices, a long multi grooved inner cylinder of plastic is coated with heavy silicone fluid and rides inside a smooth aluminum outer bore. There are no seals on each end. These are good indoors and some of the European mod pan drivers swear by them. I found outdoors at Mikes that they tend to load up with grit. They are easy to swap out for side shocks if there is a problem, although you may never have one.
I will show how to balance and tweak the car out as I get further along in the assembly. Red text added later.
John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-rear-pod-assembled-resized.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-damper-tubes-001-resized.jpg  

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Old 06-09-2008, 08:21 AM   #92
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Hi John,

You have a box heading your way and a PM.

Rick
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Old 06-09-2008, 01:10 PM   #93
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Note there is some new text in red in my previous post.

Rick Thanks. I'll give those blues a good test.

CRC Gen X 10 Battery Trays

One area of the Gen X 10 that received extensive effort is the battery compartment. I have to say they have done an excellent job here. It is much improved over the old Pantoura.

The batterries are intended to be bottom loaded. The tray has four steel screws that go into the steel inserts pressed into a small strap of graphite. See the first photo. This is a well engineered setup.

I installed a 4 cell pack with my preferred type of Dean Half Plug connectors attached to short leads and it fit very snug and was easy to install. The top plate has curves and contours that will let it clear several type of connectors but probably not tube connectors soldered to the side of a NiMH pack. The pack may or may not slide into place from the bottom with tube connectors soldered on. If you do manage to get it in, you may have to Dremmel a clearance cut for the rear most connector. I personally don't like tube connectors as they get loose and eventually start popping out in a crash or even a hard bump.

The second pic shows a four cell pack installed. I'll tell you that I would prefer a LiPo these days. I would install the 4 cell pack toward the back with a more powerful motor and maybe one cell forward if you are running a 17.5 and have enough forward traction.

The last picture shows the large LiPo tray that should hold any of the Brick LiPo packs that are available. Notice that my FMA pack is oversize (a little long). I think I could easily modify the tray by removing the upward protruding battery stops to hold even my oversize pack. After taping in LiPos in a variety of Configurations into the original Pantoura, I am very happy to see this progress in holding the battery. And like Frank said "I did not want to cram 4-cell down anyones throat." I heartily agree.

John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-battery-trays-screw-insert-resized-001.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-battery-tray-nimh-resized-002.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-battery-trays-lipo-resized-005.jpg  

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Old 06-09-2008, 04:10 PM   #94
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Pro Strut Front End on the Gen X 10

I previously evaluated this suspension and gave some building tips here earlier in this thread.

http://www.rctech.net/forum/showpost.php?p=4472940&postcount=34

The build on this car which is closer to full production than my loaner early edition Battle Axe went a little smoother. Here are some tips I may not have mentioned. When you pop in those lower pivot balls its important that you don't ruin the edges of the ball with tool marks. Use something flat to actually touch the ball. I used a very small pair of channel locks and a flat piece of graphite scrap. CRC sells a nice tool to press these in. I have one but it is not readily at hand.

CRC has improved the white washers that are used to adjust caster. They seem to be a little flatter and maybe a little thinner. This means I did not have to Dremmel the caster block to make the arms drop by gravity alone. I did have to open up the A-arms as I did on the Battle Axe with a 5/64 drill bit run at medium speed. Polishing the pin failed to produce free motion. I had to open up the holes in the arms just a little bit.

The Kingpins were a good fit to the pivot balls on this kit. I did chamfer one of the balls top hole with an X-acto knife. The pin installed with no spring should drop free with the upper arm by gravity alone. Make sure you tend to this very important item.

Width Adjustment
the Front end on this Gen X 10 has extra holes in the steering arms for adjusting Ackerman. It also has extra width adjustment for changing the car to a wide pan car. I have the front set at about 190 mm. This is a good width on a 200 mm body as it reduces the amount of wheel arch that you need to cut out. The tires tuck in good. The car drives good as well.

Reactive Caster
The Gen X 10 comes with a set of reactive caster blocks. See the photo. You can see that the inner hinge pins slopes down as it goes forward. I have the 5 degree block installed. This means the angle of the hinge pin is at a 5 degree angle. The function of the block is to remove a small amount of caster, in this case 1 degree, as the chassis rolls and that upper A-arm lifts. This prevents an oversteer condition or spin later in the corner. I liked this block on all my road pan cars as it improved the steering on the large sweeper at the end of the straight. I could drive the car a little harder. I also preffered 4 degrees of caster on the road car for the best balance of corner entry ( not too hard) and mid corner (strong) steering.
The 10 degree block removes 2 degrees of caster.
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-pro-strut-front-suspension-resized.jpg  
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Old 06-09-2008, 06:03 PM   #95
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John,

An addition to your comments about tube connectors. If you solder them on the pack like the attached photo, they fit very nicely and allow you to move the pack in any of the positions on the tray without obstruction. I would suggest using the opposite side from the speed control for easier access.

Thanks for the words about tire size. I am running on carpet and expect size to play a bigger role than on asphalt. Traction rolling is an issue even with touring car at our track. It's a fine line to find between having enough grip and too much grip...(ie traction rolling)



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Originally Posted by John Stranahan View Post
Note there is some new text in red in my previous post.

Rick Thanks. I'll give those blues a good test.

CRC Gen X 10 Battery Trays

One area of the Gen X 10 that received extensive effort is the battery compartment. I have to say they have done an excellent job here. It is much improved over the old Pantoura.

The batterries are intended to be bottom loaded. The tray has four steel screws that go into the steel inserts pressed into a small strap of graphite. See the first photo. This is a well engineered setup.

I installed a 4 cell pack with my preferred type of Dean Half Plug connectors attached to short leads and it fit very snug and was easy to install. The top plate has curves and contours that will let it clear several type of connectors but probably not tube connectors soldered to the side of a NiMH pack. The pack may or may not slide into place from the bottom with tube connectors soldered on. If you do manage to get it in, you may have to Dremmel a clearance cut for the rear most connector. I personally don't like tube connectors as they get loose and eventually start popping out in a crash or even a hard bump.

The second pic shows a four cell pack installed. I'll tell you that I would prefer a LiPo these days. I would install the 4 cell pack toward the back with a more powerful motor and maybe one cell forward if you are running a 17.5 and have enough forward traction.

The last picture shows the large LiPo tray that should hold any of the Brick LiPo packs that are available. Notice that my FMA pack is oversize (a little long). I think I could easily modify the tray by removing the upward protruding battery stops to hold even my oversize pack. After taping in LiPos in a variety of Configurations into the original Pantoura, I am very happy to see this progress in holding the battery. And like Frank said "I did not want to cram 4-cell down anyones throat." I heartily agree.

John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-pict0367.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-pict0368.jpg  
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Old 06-09-2008, 06:09 PM   #96
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Pro Strut Front End on the Gen X 10

I Reactive Caster
The Gen X 10 comes with a set of reactive caster blocks. See the photo. You can see that the inner hinge pins slopes down as it goes forward. I have the 5 degree block installed. This means the angle of the hinge pin is at a 5 degree angle. The function of the block is to remove a small amount of caster, in this case 1 degree, as the chassis rolls and that upper A-arm lifts. This prevents an oversteer condition or spin later in the corner. I liked this block on all my road pan cars as it improved the steering on the large sweeper at the end of the straight. I could drive the car a little harder. I also preffered 4 degrees of caster on the road car for the best balance of corner entry ( not too hard) and mid corner (strong) steering.
The 10 degree block removes 2 degrees of caster.

John, I was hoping to you could explain the reactive caster alittle more. What I dont understand is how changing the castor blocks, and the washers will affect how the car feels.

The problem I am having with my GenX10 is that on the straights the car feels "darty" has to much steering. Would changing a the castor blocks help? I currently have the 5 deg in (with 1 washer forward, 2 back). I was told to put the zero degree in, and that would help get rid of some of the steering. Is that right?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Shawn.
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Old 06-09-2008, 06:13 PM   #97
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LiPo Tray Mods
Photo one shows the CRC Gen X 10 with my favorite 5000 mA-h LiPo from FMA direct. This battery is not marketed directly for car use but it has very good voltage, punch, and longevity compared to other brands I have tried. I had to make very small mods to the battery tray. I removed two little tabs that prevent a brick pack from moving fore and aft on each end of the tray. I probably would run one piece of black strapping tape from Lefthander-RC.com just in front of the antenna mount to keep this soft pack from moving backward. It is well supported by the back of this narrow servo and on the sides by the battery tray rails. With use the battery will conform itself to the tray. A LiPo is a bit like putty. This battery is not Roar approved for racing so check before you get one.

I installed a KO Propo PDS 2413ICS.
This servo is shorter than most standard size servos but has metal gears good speed and good torque to survive the crashes. In spite of this it is very compact. It is a little wider than intended by CRC, but I was able to use the outermost screw on the servo plate into the middle hole of the servo mount and the fit was ideal. Perfectly centered. See photo 2. With the ballstuds leaving the back of the servo saver the steering arms are also perfectly aligned at 90 degrees to the car to give the proper ackerman.

That center shock is a very nicely made and smooth unit.

John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-fma-lipo-board-resized.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-servo-mounts-pds2413ics-resized.jpg  
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Old 06-09-2008, 06:33 PM   #98
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C5Vette. Thanks for the pics. I did see them on the other thread. It would give you an option.

Shawn
The reactive caster will not help you on the straight. A little more explanation. I finally got my pan cars hooked up on the sweeper. They were cornering harder than the Nitros. The secret was a little stiffer front springs as the ones I was using were bottoming. You usually don't do this when a car is pushing, add stiffer springs, but that is what worked.
A new problem developed now when traction was not quite perfect. I would slam the car into the sweeper now it would corner very well and then about half the way through the back end would start to drift out. What I needed was slightly less steering in the later parts of the corner. Adding a reactive caster block did the trick as it kills about 1 degree of caster. This kills a little steering after the car fully rolls. That was just enough so that the car now continued to slow and steer in good control while approaching the setup for the next turn.

Weaving on the straight
This is a natural tendency of pan cars. It has to do with a sensitive steering and a lack of directional stability from the strut front end. Touring cars with twin A-arm front ends don't do this. So what to do. Firstly there is a 2-3 month transition where you learn to drive a pan car. At the end of it you just put the 3.5 powered pan car on the straight roll the throttle on reach 53 mph and it appears to spectators in full control and going perfectly straight. Jaws drop, people gasp, Nitros are passed on entry into the sweeper. Well the driver has learned to make very small corrections very gently to keep the car from weaving. You put a very good touring car driver on the car now. He weaves on the straight; he is hesitant to roll on throttle; he only reaches 1/2 throttle for many laps. So what to do in the meantime. You can add side dams to your body or wing if you are willing too. This helps a lot. It gives the car directional stability like fins give a rocket directional stability. Without the fins a rocket has an erratic path. You move the center of wind pressure back with side dams. This leads to aerodynamic stability. Next try 0 camber. Your tires are going to wear funny but this may get you through the learning period. I'll see if I can get up a pic of side dams.
I chose this pic because I added the side dam. It is quite large. It is also helpful to save body material behind the wheel. This is on a wide pan MCAllister Nissan 300Z. I used similar dams on a narrow pan.
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-mcallister-nissan-300-z-final-wing-spoiler-resized.jpg  

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Old 06-09-2008, 09:49 PM   #99
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Final Electronic Install
One thing you try to do when installing electronics is to get the car balanced left to right and to achieve equal cross cornerweights on road. On the oval we don't do either but do change it in a controlled way. Do you need a set of scales to race a pan car. Well no. There are simple ways to use instead.

First step, Side to Side Balance
left tires on beam on one scale, right tires on beam on one scale. Bounce the car. I did this with the electronics layout in photo 1 and I was even within .3 ounces. This is good enough and about as accurate as you are going to get with a car that has shocks. Alternatively, balance the car on two points centered front and back. The car should be well balanced. Or pick up both ends with two Xacto knife points. The left and right tires should leave the ground as simultaneously as possible. Second pic shows the setup, but on the Battle Axe.

Second Step, Eliminate Tweak
Tweak is when your cross corner weights are not equal there are several ways to correct this. I will start with the simplest. Eliminate play in the front springs. Lift the center front of the car with the X-Acto knife point and see if they lift at the same time or put two pennies one on the top of each tire and foward a bit. When you lift the front the pennies should fall near the same time. If they do not, then adjust a tweak screw which are 4-40 long allen screws in the back on top of the white progressive tweak springs. If tweak gets worse try the other screw. After a few tries you will know which screw to adjust ahead of time. 1/4 turn movements here. Pic of a tweak station tomorrow.

Eliminate Tweak with Cornerweight Scales or Tweak Station
Put the car on corner weight scales or rear tires on a beam and front tires each on a scale. Adjust the tweak screws until the front tires bear even weight. If you use a tweak station instead then adjust until your bubble is level. Now you are finished setting tweak. Don't reverse the car and think you can improve it you just mess up what you have done. You have set the cross corner weights approximately equal.

Corner weights
Lastly if you are not satisfied with approximately equal, set the tweak, fronts equal. Now reverse the car or look at the rear scales. If the weight is in the proper place in the car the rear will be equal as well. You see when you set tweak you are working on the back and the front at the same time.

So what if the weights are not equal but your side to side weights are good, then you move weight back toward the light side or forward away from the heavy side without changing their side to side position. This is setting your crosscorner weights more exactly equal than just setting tweak. You only do this once to the car. From then on setting tweak is sufficient. Now Left front + right rear = right front + left rear. This is what is meant by equal cross corner weights.

Everything was good to within .3 ounces with this setup. One item I am missing is a fan on the LRP speed control.

So what is the goal in all this. A car that accelerates straight without torque steer. A car that corners the same left and right.

Thanks Rick for some of the Photo Props.

The last pic is my Saleen S7R body that fits on a narrow pan car and on the TC5 shown.

Final weight of the CRC Generation X 10, 39.6 ounces with the Saleen Body.

John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-final-electronics-install-resized-005.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-side-side-balance-003-resized.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-final-electronics-install-tweak-001.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-final-electronics-install-corner-weight-002.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-saleen-s7r-001-resized.jpg  


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Old 06-09-2008, 11:05 PM   #100
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Thanks for your insight John, I will keep working on it. I just picked up a high downforce wide body for the car. I will paint it up and try that on the track next week.

Shawn.
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Old 06-10-2008, 03:53 AM   #101
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John

Great information and pics!! Everytime i read this thread i learn something new...

So.... when is your book coming out?

Seriously. I would pay money to have all of this info and pics on my bookshelf.
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Old 06-10-2008, 04:48 AM   #102
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John

Great information and pics!! Everytime i read this thread i learn something new...

So.... when is your book coming out?

Seriously. I would pay money to have all of this info and pics on my bookshelf.
I'm doing a PDF and Word with the Battle Axe at the end, so if you want that it's free.
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Old 06-10-2008, 10:46 AM   #103
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Thanks for the posts guys. Good luck.

There actually was a book. It sold well.

http://hometown.aol.com/johnstranahan/RCElectricCarReference.html

Radio Control Car Action Magazine requested an all new 3rd edition to publish which I supplied. On finishing the book they changed chief editors. The mood changed and it sits unpublished there. I lost interest. With the thread you get up to date photos. Most of the material in the book will exist in the thread eventually.
John

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Old 06-11-2008, 11:15 AM   #104
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Removing Tweak with a Tweak Station

Photo 1 shows the CRC Gen X 10 on an MIP tweak station. First set your ride height. The station telscopes to adjust length to your wheel base. You remove the rocker with the bubble level and level the back end. You then put the car on the station centered using the layout lines on top of the two aluminum bars. I put my front end on the rocker. Note I have the front slightly offset to give me a reading on the bubble. I had tweaked it out previously with the scales.
Photo two shows the bubble slightly left. This means the left (drivers) front (and right rear) are heavy. You screw the drivers side tweak screw down a bit to correct the problem. This will add weight to the right front (and left rear). Just get the bubble between the lines. This takes only a minute or two. The you are ready to race.
I like this station as it takes apart into three pieces that fit right in the long slot of my tool drawer in a Plano box.
The only improvement I would have made for us old farts is to use two bubble levels, one on each end of the board. (or just one and a balancing slot) A dentist mirror will solve this problem as well.
Normally I only use scales at home. I use this tweak station before each race at the track.

John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-mip-tweak-station-resized-top-002.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-mip-tweak-station-resized-front-004.jpg  

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Old 06-11-2008, 08:48 PM   #105
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NiMH vs LiPo
I have been reporting dicharge data on my threads. This last set of test was interesting.

Worley Parsons LiPo nominal 4800 mA-h From FMA direct
Brand New 4977mA-h 7.35 V average. Over capacity, outstanding voltage for a 6 cell equivalent pack.

The same battery after 30 cycles maybe 5 months of very hard use charged at 5 amps
4683 mA-h 7.25 V average. This is only a 2.5% deterioration over the promised 4800 mA-h or a 6 % loss over its as delivered capacity.

Reedy vmx plus
I just received this pack as a warrantee replacement for a pack of 4200 Reedy zappers. The nominal capacity is 4600 mA-h on this new pack. IB's. It tested below this at the factory but not unreasonably far. By the time I received it with no middle men it already tests at 4337 mA-h It is 6% used up already and I have not even had it on the track. Voltage is good at an average of 7.42 Volts for a six cell pack. This will deteriorate quickly as will capacity with use.

Both packs are the same price.

It is pretty clear what my choice is. Use a LiPo and demotor the car if necessary. I have been racing NiMH maybe 2 months and have gone through
6 packs. 3 of them were sent back. The track leader has at least 8 in the same time period. This is not economical at all.

Safety these days is a wash between the two. Get a good lipo charger and use a flame proof charging sock. Do not charge in the car. That Scorpion 2 cell LiPo charger From FMA direct is a good charger at a good price and works every time. No bad decisions can be made by the user (except to high an amp rate which deteriorates the pack just a little faster) or is ever made by the charger. This is what will kill a pack a bad choice by user or charger. I have 3 Scorpion chargers for back to back practicing with 3 LiPos in one wide pan car and one touring car.

I will also say that not all LiPos are this good. This particular one is slightly oversize, but I fit it in the Gen X 10 and my TC5 with some small mods.
I have also had good numbers from Track Power packs. They do make a hard sided pack. I have had poorer numbers from other packs commonly advertized in RC magazines.

John

Last edited by John Stranahan; 06-25-2008 at 03:26 PM.
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