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Old 04-05-2009, 10:59 AM   #766
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Originally Posted by John Stranahan View Post
RC Devil

This is a very interesting Pan based on cars from Hazenbach. It has a dampened front end. The front suspension is mounted on a one piece flat graphite plates which pivots front to back on center pivot type balls. The pivoting motion allows the damping to occur at the rear of the plate. The plate also acts like a one piece sway bar (a la Corally)
At the rear barely visible is I believe, the latest Hazenbach 4 link rear end. Twin vertical links are aranged to lower the roll center by putting an virtual pivot at or below the ground. Additional angled links located the pod front and back. Some racers noted better rear cornering traction. Very innovative front and back end.
John
Some additional info pulled from moosi-masters (a German pan-car forum):

Quote:
- Fahrzeug kann um 4 mm (Radstand) verkürzt werden: Das gesamte vordere Chassis kann um 4mm nach hinten versetzt montiert werden.
- mehrteilige Zwischenplatte aus Lexan mit separater Transponderhaltervorrichtung.
- Kielspitze ist jetzt von einem massiven Lexanschutz umgeben.
- das Chassis läuft jetzt spitzer zu - bessere Unterboden-Aerodynamik.
- Deutlich zu sehen ist der komplett neue Hinterachspod für mehr Platz für längere Motoren.
- Kompletter Rammschutz vorne aus Lexan und Moosgummi.
and:
Quote:
Der neue PC10H2 wird als 200mm Variante 485 € kosten.
Die breite 235 mm Version wird 519 € kosten.
Der Umrüstkit von 200 mm auf 235 mm wird 69 € kosten. Darin enthalten sind:
Lange Carbon Hinter-Achse, breite Radmitnehmer, breite CFK Vorderachsplatte mit Versteifungen, lange R/L Titan-Spurstangen.
Horrible Google translation with fixes to make it more comprehensible:
Quote:
- Vehicle may be shortened by 4 mm (Wheelbase): The entire front chassis can be mounted 4mm backwards.
- Multi-plate Lexan holder with a separate transponder device.
- Kiel, is now leading by a massive Lexanschutz surrounded (I suspect they mean a lexan undertray).
- The chassis is now pointed to - better underbody aerodynamics.
- Clearly visible is the completely new Hinterachspod for more space for longer motors.
- Complete front bumper from Lexan and foam.

The new PC10H2 200mm variant costs 485 €.
The wide 235 mm version will cost 519 €.
The conversion kit from 200 mm to 235 mm will cost 69 €. These include:
Long Carbon rear axle, wide hubs, wide CFRP stiffeners, wide front plate with long (steering?) R / L titanium rods.
Supposedly there should be more pictures on moosi-masters (http://www.moosi-masters.de/forum/viewforum.php?f=16), but they don't load for me.
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Old 04-05-2009, 02:53 PM   #767
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It sure is a sexy car but 519 euro for a pancar is a lot of money. I am sure it is a good car couse i saw the Hatzenbachs in action during the rc-lemans race but it is a lot of money for a pancar, a corally with carbon chasis is cheaper and can be just as good with a little tweaking. The hatzenbachs need an unusual setup to make it drivable.
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Old 04-05-2009, 08:39 PM   #768
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Cars like the Red RC are certainly going to become more common in the future. This car is priced high but is also excessively complex which brings up the price without neccesarily improving performance. You have to really have the car in hand before you can figure out how the front shock is made to move. Certainly in my tests the more direct the shock to the wheel the better the damping.

So is the future there with the red RC or maybe with dual A-arm suspension with a coil over shock acting directly on the arm near the wheel, exactly like all the 1/8 scales use and also many full bodied race cars. The cost is not so high if things are kept simple and effective. The future might also involve some beefy links in a 3-link arrangement. These have been tried previously but failed in the durability department. Why, because they used tiny links unsuitable for the large masses to be coupled. A #4 thread is not big enough. I think, if the reports I hear are true, and the red RC is run next to the 3-link the results will clearly favor the 3-link with direct shocks and simple dual A-arm front suspension.

Left pic. A pivoting graphite plate supports the standard CRC lower arm allowing articulation. A standard upper arm mount and upper arm are attached to a low second deck. An RC18T front shock supplies the springing and the damping. There is just enough room for it by removing the upper A-arm brace.

Right pic. The latest of my 3-link rear suspensions. This one uses more stock parts than previous models. The tweak springs now support the load of the car. This tested great. The shocks directly dampen wheel travel. The 3 links remove wasted rotation of the pod with bump. The lack of an upper shock provides positive weight transfer caused by the antisquat built into the 3-link geometry. The center shock normally dissipates this valuable front to rear weight transfer. No center shock is used here.

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Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-wide-pan-dual-arm-front-end-resized.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-3-link-crc-gen-x-10-pod-004.jpg  
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Last edited by John Stranahan; 04-05-2009 at 10:41 PM.
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Old 04-05-2009, 09:08 PM   #769
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New posts above. Thanks.

World GT Track Test, Petit Lemans Edition, Lipo 10.5

We had two racers out for practic today. Track conditions were just horrible, but it was a beautiful sunny shirtsleeve weather day. It had rained last night, but not enough to wash off all the sugar. This was concentrated in gooey wet puddles this morning. It really needed to be hosed off, but we are not equipped. I blew the majority of the water off. Some was still seeping out of the track (hence the need for new asphalt). I resugared it with 1/2 the neccesary sugar, 12 lbs. This is a huge track and the old sealed asphalt really needs 24 lbs for good traction with pan cars. We have a nice, big, powered sprayer that sprays a 6 foot path in one pass. The battery is dead from disuse. The wind was blowing with gusts to 25. We had to tie a heavy glass door, with automatic closing, open to keep it from banging all the way open.

Anyway, driving repeated smooth laps was almost impossible. I was getting good speed on the straight, though. Now it happened the wind was a headwind for the car on the straight. What then happened is that at about 40 mph, I was dealing with 60 mph air speed and the car had an occasional blowover. This means the air got uder it just past a bump and the car sailed straight upward. Well this is a known problem with pan cars and full size GTP cars. This is why pan car nats were cancelled years back. This is why World GT limits you to about 25-30 mph with 4 cell. This is why I expect cars like the Hatzenbach based Red RC to gain ground. Maybe in two years time.

I did many experiments to solve this very blowover problem on the Pantoura thread on pan cars these included.

Trying to find the exact spring that would give the car maximum front wheel travel.
Putting weight in the front.
Trying to reduce this spring rate just a tad with a KSG sway bar used to achieve the same front roll stiffness.
Dampening the front strut suspension-This was effective up to about a Novak 4.5 R.
Using dual a-arms with damping- This was good for a LIPO car up to a Novak 3.5 R and off course up to about 63 mph.
I tried two different styles of partial front diffusers with limited success. The 63 mph run used one of these made of Lexan.

Not to long ago, I thought, what if I put one of these HPI soft plastic wings under the front, like in the toyota GT1 GTP fullsize race car. They would spring back in a crash and are FULL WIDTH. This proved to be the best solution for LIPO and even better with a dampened double A-arm suspension.

So what I have done is put a front diffuser on the Nissan R34 GTR. I know it will go at least 57 mph while the nose is glued to the ground. I have tested it by Radar on our 160 ft straight with a 3.5 motor. Here is a pic of the install. This is an HPI GT wing which has more curve than the ones I used on the wide pan. Now if you are not a fan of using tape on a race car then you have not looked under the hood and chassis of fullsize race cars in the GT class. There is plenty of tape.

So when Traxxas says their car goes 75 mph what do they mean. They mean that they tape two railroad spikes to the car and then it won't fly before it reaches 75 mph on a smooth parking lot. Jeff has wittnessed a Traxxas test. I tried all my runs with legal minimum weights.
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-diffuser-r34-gtr-resized.jpg  
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Last edited by John Stranahan; 04-07-2009 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 04-07-2009, 06:48 PM   #770
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Nerf Wing for 200 mm car, Short graphite bumper
I received a favorable reply from Frank at CRC on the bumper and nerfwing projects. If he has time later he may CNC a set of prototypes to test. I have also completed the CAD of the Nerfwing for the 200 mm World GT car. The main utility on carpet will be to move the body post back and to protect the axle. On asphalt there is a 1.7 by 1.2 inch pad that we may be able to fit all the elctronics. This will move weight back and provide better forward traction. If you have plenty of forward traction (I don't ever seem to have enough on asphalt) then it will still move your body post out and back and provide axle protection.

The first prototypes will also have an extra secret hole that could be used for a long beefy link in case you want to try a 3-link.

If you would like a 200mm version send me a PM. This will help to move the project along. I know of at least 6 Gen X 10 cars running LiPo 10.5 that could use a set at our track.

John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-nerwing-200-mm-gen-x-10.jpg  
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Last edited by John Stranahan; 04-07-2009 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 04-08-2009, 06:15 PM   #771
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World GT Track Test, Track Temp 110F

I fired up the big sugar water sprayer today and coated the track well. The weather was windy and cool. I was still getting some headwing gusts. I had no blowovers. The diffuser worked. Did it work as well as on my impala oval car. No. The impala just has more front downforce and works super well on this road coarse. I have some tuning yet that can be done. I can trim the two ends of my associated bumper to let the ends "breathe better". It is know that the rotation of the front tires pull a lot of air under the ends of the bumper.
I got some more midcorner steering traction. This was helpful on the sweeper by allowing more throttle. This was helpful even on the slow hairpins allowing the wide line without brakes to equal the tight line with brakes. It's a lot of fun using brakes because it is more realistic of what you would do in a full size car. Imagine doing a hairpin turn with a full size car without the use of brakes.
I ran a very long pack with zero incidents of note. Motor temp 136 F 72/24 still.

Spektrum model 3300T receiver with telemetry

I have this receiver in my very customized wide pan. The first test was today. I turned on the LRP TC edition speed control feeding an X 11 LRP 3.5 motor and the system went to full throttle. This is pretty alarming with a 3.5 know for exploding the rotor (get the X12 or get a chrome rotor). I could not go into setup mode. I unpluged the speed control from the receiver and that was the problem. It was giving out a full throttle signal when brand new. Now that's just not right. So what is different about this receiver. This is a new model that also can be used with the lap timer. There are extra plug holes for the triggers and it does not require the additional lap timing receiver module. It binds with a plug and not a button.

The solution was to plug the speed control into the AUX port. This removed the high throttle signal and still powered the receiver. Now I could bind it with the wire and all was well. I thought that my brand new LRP was toast. Not the case. You may come accross somenone with this problem one day.

The receiver lacked signal on the track. Again I wrapped the antenna around the receiver like normal. It had always worked in the past. It went in and out of control. Fairly frightening with a 3.5 ready to destroy the car. So whats up. I was in the drivers stand. The only difference is the 6 foot chain link fence is down accross the track for rennovation work. The fence must help capture and retransmit the signal to boost it or some such thing. I can think of no other difference. This happened on two cars now. I went home to make repairs.
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Last edited by John Stranahan; 04-08-2009 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 04-08-2009, 06:26 PM   #772
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I had a similiar problem with my sr3000 reciever. Though the problem was that on straight some time ago my car went flying in the air and flipped over cutting part of my antenna off. After this I would loose the car on the straight. Luckily I had an extra one and now I don't keep the excess antenna outside of the body.
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Old 04-08-2009, 09:36 PM   #773
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A couple of new post just above including one of mine. Thanks.

Expresso, I do the same with my antennas now. Just leave them inside the body but straightened out with a short antenna tube and mount now. I use the 3.6 inch length that you can cut your antenna to. This is better than a 4.5 inch length cut by accident as it is in tune with a harmonic frequency.

Kingsford charcoal lighter fluid, the oily phase; Kroger 45 spf, the aqueous phase

I tried to make a solution of the sunscreen, cheap Kroger 45 spf (sunscreen protection factor) and Kingsford Charcoal lighter fluid (which is very similar to the latest plastic applicator bottle Corally "Jack the Gripper".)

Not going to happen. I have again two immiscible liquids, the oily phase (Kingsford) on top, the water phase on the bottom. When you shake vigorously there is some extraction possible. Some of the ingredients although contained in the water based emulsion may leach out into the oily phase. This was indeed true for the fragrance. Went right into the Kingsford. I might as well have covered my whole body as four tires. When I put the mixture (nowhere close to a solution) on the tire there were again white spots of sunscreen. The sunscreen is not coating the whole surface of the tire. I suggest if you want to fool with these two products to do the Gripper first, after 10-15 minutes it will have penetrated then add the sunscreen. Improvement was non existent with the mixing method for me. There might be a secret miscible brand needed. With the separate applications, way back in time, I tested and got improvement for only a very short time over Jack the Gripper alone. Maybe 1 to 1.5 minutes. I think its better to have a consistent tire the whole race. Just use the Jack the Gripper and save yourself the cost, the mess, and the stinky rag and bag. Interesting Chemistry Lesson.
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Old 04-09-2009, 04:23 PM   #774
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Wide Gen X 10

I was asked by PM how I got the KO PDS 2413 ICS half height servo in the Gen X 10. Here is a pick of the bottom side. The steel screw at far right of the chassis, left in the picture, holds the long side of the servo mount.

"I'll post a pic on my CRC thread. I cannot do it here. I use the farthest right most screw to mount the long side of the servo. The servo saver is within mm of the center. I put ballstuds on the back side of the servo saver."

The Ackerman is not too bad. Links are almost at 90 degrees. The car drives great. It is off center but only a couple of mm. Not a problem.
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-ko-2413-servo-install-wide-gen-x-10.jpg  
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Last edited by John Stranahan; 04-09-2009 at 09:07 PM.
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Old 04-09-2009, 07:35 PM   #775
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quick lesson on sunscreens.. waterproof sunscreens don't wash away as they are not miscible in water.. the photo with the white blob at the bottom shows what happens when you try to stir waterproof sunscreen into water.. try as you may you get sunscreen stuck all over your finger, stir stick, and cup, but not disolving.. the uniform milky mixture shows waterproof sunscreen mixed in kingsford..
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-dscf4915.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-dscf4914.jpg  
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Old 04-09-2009, 09:06 PM   #776
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my 45 Kroger sunscreen was supposed to be water proof. I put neither in water only in the lighter fluid. I did not get any to dissolve so this must be brand specific. What brands are you using.
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Old 04-09-2009, 09:18 PM   #777
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banana boat.. it works using the same principal as high end furniture paint stripper.. these often contain waxes that when applied to the furniture effectively create a barrier against evaporation and allow the solvents to work longer and disolve deeper.. same general principal with suntan lotion.. a higher viscosity oil evaporates more slowly and allows the solvent to penetrate the rubber longer before evaporating away.. as for why this all works.... my belief is that the suntan lotion/ solvent doesnt actually stay on the tire longer, just penetrates deeper and thus creates a thicker wear layer of softened rubber...
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Old 04-09-2009, 10:40 PM   #778
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What about track prep as to tire prep?

After we use blowers on the track, we use a fair amount of fountain pop syrup mixed with water. We then put the solution in a sprayer unit and lay down a good coat on the track. A lot of the guys will only use Paragon and that all. Myself I used Paragon 1st then a fair amount of Coppertone Sport #15. if you can drive in the line most of the cars are using and stay out of the dirty areas of the track your car should be hooked right up.

-=light=-
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Old 04-10-2009, 02:16 AM   #779
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Do not forget the tire prep factor.
Applying traction compound to a tire with a dirty surface will not be as effective as applying it to a cleaned tire's surface.

I use regular dishwashing soap and a dishwashing brush to clean my tires of a few days before a big race.

This really gives you the best traction.
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Old 04-10-2009, 03:07 AM   #780
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dishwashing soap works great. A bucket of handwarm water a spoon or so dishswash soap, chuck te tires in, put a plastig lid or something on the tires so they don't pop out of the water. After an houre or so massage the tires in the soap to get the dirt out, then rinse it with water en massage the soap out. Real easy and quite fast as well.

the first time you apply jack the gripper or something else and whipe it off you almost don't get a dirty ragg or paper, meaning the tires are clean.
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