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Old 02-23-2009, 09:29 AM   #631
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3-Link, Transverse Shock Tower, Pantoura Pod
I was asked by private message for some more detail on this conversion. Here are a few pics that might help. The only critical measurement is the spacing of the two screws that secure the Hyperdrive shock tower. I get 1.8125 inch. My screws are slightly wide of that but tightened up OK. I placed them a bit forward as these holes take quite a beating when the car lands upside down on rigid body posts.
On the sides, put the screw centered in the material available right at the tip of the V.

Originally I had the front wheels in the short position to compensate for the extra wheelbase the conversion adds. This unfortunately produces too much bumper when fit to the Alfa Body.

A couple of solutions. Make the conversion permanent by sanding and fitting the pod to the chassis. This removes two holes from the chassis. Shorten the link ends by trimming.

Or wait about a week and see how my conversion using a Gen X 10 pod goes. The parts are in mid shipment.

Hope this helps. I don't really have a blue print but there are quite a few photos and a parts list to guide you.

These screw holes have an 82 degree countersink. I drill the holes with a stiff center drill (.082 inch tip), then through drill with a .110 drill, then countersink with a 6 flute (has to be sharp) countersink. Alternatively you can buy an 82 degree center drill, then you drill and countersink first and follow by through drilling .110.

More pics and parts list here.

The tooling needed is here.

John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-3-link-pantoura-pod-002.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-3-link-pantoura-pod-003.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-3-link-pantoura-pod-004.jpg  

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Old 02-23-2009, 10:34 AM   #632
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John,

The distance between the 4-40 screws on the bottom of the Hyperdrive shock tower is 1.8125
Always interesting reading you thread.

Mike
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Old 02-23-2009, 02:23 PM   #633
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Thanks Mike. Correction made.
John
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Old 02-24-2009, 07:36 PM   #634
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3-link rear suspension with Gen X 10 Pod

Here are a few previews of the 3-link on Gen X 10 Pod project. It's a go. The parts list is much reduced. I used the center shock mount graphite for little shock towers. These needed to be spaced up about 5/16 inch. I'll have nicer spacers when its done. Probably just the smaller 1/8 inch Dubro Collars. The project used 10 of these. None needed to be filed, I drilled and tapped 2 of them with a 2.5 mm tap to make lower shock mounts. I used one existing hole in the side plates. The inner shock tower mount screw threads this .089 inch hole. This screw cannot stick out on the bottom much or it impedes downtravel by hitting the red link. I drilled one additional hole outboard of this and through bolted it. I did sand off "two holes" for shock clearance on these extended side plates. They are quite thick.

I have tire clearance on full size new CRC spec rear tires.

I beefed up the center post of the pod by using a through drilled (with Cobalt) 1/2 inch CRC hourglass spacer. This spacer has a broad base to strengthen things up. Then I through bolted this piece and compressed one of the Durro Collars in the middle with a piece of a threaded hex standoff. There is now a threaded hole aiming forward on this post. Can you say Watts Link. Stay tuned. This is sure to need some red Loctite.

A Watts link has the same function as a Panhard bar. It consists of three moving parts. Diagram. At the center is a wheel shaped bellcrank. It has a bearing in the center. The center bearing pivot is attached to the solid rear axle. In this case it will be attached to that center post that supports the front of the top plate. Two links one above and one below extend outward to opposite sides and attach to the chassis. Thats it. I have some pieces in the mail that may make it possible. (Trailranger and I had a long discussion on how best to make this part with very limited space.)

My advantage will be that two links carry the same load so they can be a little smaller without tellescoping in a crash. One will be in tension and one in compression when you hit the wall.

The Benefit over the previous Hyperdrive version of the 3-link is that there are many fewer aftermarket expensive pieces to be purchased. I'll make a new list when I finish. The Hyperdrive version is a hair easier to build.

The wheelbase is preserved. The intricate fit of the pod front to the chassis is preserved. I think some short red Aluminum Standoffs holding the shock tower onto the side plate may give it a factory look.

WATTS LINK
There are slight advantages over a Panhard Bar. There is no side to side motion of the pod to cause scrub with bump (the tire does not slide sideways with upward motion of the pod). This may help. There is no roll center change with roll (this is really not going to be a help here).

The shock tops are no higher than the top of the tire.

The track is under repair. Have to get some RC excitement somehow.

John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-3-link-gen-x-10-pod-002.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-3-link-gen-x-10-pod-003.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-3-link-gen-x-10-pod-004.jpg  

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Old 02-24-2009, 11:51 PM   #635
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Here is a pic of that Sophia body installed with GFR screw on type of body mounts on the CRC Gen X 10 in the above post. You can see the screw just to the side of the window. I have used the extended body mount side plates. Now with the correct wheelbase for the body the rear fits like a glove as well as the front. The body falls away from the side fairly quickly aft of the tire; this caused me grief previously. It looks really good now. I have full size rubber installed which may work great outdoors.
John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-protoform-sophia-rear-wheel-arch-013.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-protoform-sophia-rear-wheel-arch-009.jpg  
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Old 02-26-2009, 12:24 AM   #636
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Hi John,

I remember vaguely that you wrote something about rear diffusers a long time ago, but can't find it with the RCTech search (or was it only front diffusers?).

What are some general points I should watch when adding a rear diffuser to a car? What about the angle of the diffuser? Would a cut-up rear wing be good enough?
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Old 02-26-2009, 12:52 AM   #637
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Thomas-I did test a rear diffuser. It was made of LEXAN and attached to the bottom of the pod. Just after the back of the bottom plate it v'd upward. It was the full width available between the tires. I was not able to notice any effect on oversteer understeer balance; this usually picks up any aero changes. At the time I was using a soft air dam that was only 3 mm above the track. It is possible that there was just not enough air under my car for it too work. With a front diffuser now, I don't need the soft dam and can have a generous 6 mm clearance at the front to clear all lbumps. Results might be different with the heavier air flow.

I noticed one very elaborate car with a full belly pan and rear diffuser over in Europe. I noticed in subsequent pictures of his car that the rear diffuser was gone there as well.

On full size LMP cars, I believe that air is channeled from various sources like, the front wheel wells, under front diffuser air, and then directed under the rear diffuser. What we have missing is that channeled air.

If I was building it again I would make sure and put vertical strakes and side dams so that any negative pressure created would not be lost at the sides. The vertical strakes keep the air channeled and going straight.

John
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Old 02-26-2009, 09:38 PM   #638
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3-Link on CRC Gen X 10 Pod, Ready for Road Test

Here are a few pictures of the finished car. The hardest part was finding room for a Panhard Bar. I did get in parts for a Watts link but it required too much space longwise in the car. The only space really is low in front of the motor. My FMA battery packs actually just clear the center post that supports the top plate. I used a 1/2 inch and 5/8 inch CRC Hour Glass Standoff for this post. This increased the strength due to a broad bearing surface top and bottom. This also maximized Panhard Bar space by being thin in the middle of the bottom section.

The first three pics show the Panhard bar mounts. This was the fourth attempt. On the right side, I drilled the front of the right side pod plate high enough to clear the screw that hold the pod plate on. I tapped it 4-40. I installed a long set screw with red Loctite. I installed two thin nuts. I but on a Losi JRXS ball nut. I ground the allen screw flush with the ball nut end. This came out just right and maximised adjustment room for the motor. On the left side, of the bar, I mounted a long set screw in the Dubro collar with Red Loctite. I ground the wrench flats off the ball nut to shorten it. (photo is before the grinding). I mounted it by holding it with diagonal cutters; I used red loctite. I used Red Loctite on the mounting screw and nut. You don't want a crash to losen this part. This part is stacked on top of another Dubro Collar to give you your bump travel clearance. Bump travel is about 3-4 mm. This is limited by springs. If the springs don't work out, I will just install the copper springs on the shocks. This will increase wheel travel to 5-7 mm including droop.
I can mount a 69 spur with 31 pinion but no bigger pinion. Thats a 2.22 gear. For my 10.5 motor I will likely use 48 pitch pinions in the 23-25 range with that 69 spur. A starting point on this gearing would be appreciated if you have run LiPo 10.5.

I decided to use the Stock springs for bump and rebound. No reason really except that Pejota had mentioned it. Then you can use your stock set of springs to tune it. The RC18T front shocks supply only damping. There is clearance to run the gold springs in a coil over shock configuration; the gold springs would be the stiffness most suitable. The rear goes up into bump and rolls really smoothly. It should work great. The wheel base is preserved.

Additional parts to buy are fewer in this install
A bag of Dubro 1/8 inch wheel collars
A set of Traxxas links
One Short 4-40 tie rod which you probably have in your kit.
One long and one short Losi XXXT ball cup.
RC18T front shocks.
One set of RC18T pivot balls. These are threaded 2.5 mm.
You already have the little shock towers if you have a Gen X 10 Kit.
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-3-link-crc-gen-x-10-pod-004.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-3-link-crc-gen-x-10-pod-006.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-3-link-crc-gen-x-10-pod-008.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-3-link-crc-gen-x-10-pod-009.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-3-link-crc-gen-x-10-pod-010.jpg  


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Old 02-26-2009, 09:39 PM   #639
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Here are the last pics.

So when will you see the biggest difference between a 3-link with Panhard bar and a stock rear end or T-plate rear end.

If there are bumps you will have more forward traction
If it is slippery you will have more forward traction
On asphalt the car will be more supple and in control.

There may be some benefits on carpet, but I don't have any in town to test on. This last design has almost identical roll stiffness as the stock rear end. It should work good on carpet.
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-3-link-crc-gen-x-10-pod.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-3-link-crc-gen-x-10-pod-012.jpg  

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Old 02-27-2009, 04:32 AM   #640
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Ahaa, I knew the std side springs from CRC would be enough to provide spring action (planned on using em in my 1/12th)
John, do you have any idea what would happen if I (in my 12th) were to use a panhard bar and still keep the top link a shock with spring???

In my "vision" during accelleration it will transfer the weight to the rear using the side springs and the top spring, the side springs will provide way more stable forward bite because the will make sure the weight isnt applied to a point (link car) but rather 2 points (panhard/ T-bar).
This will also make that I would use the center spring's damper for damping the vertical movement of the chassis.

For side spring action I would still keep the damper tubes.

Down side on this, a hit to the rear will tear the center shock apart....
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Old 02-27-2009, 09:37 AM   #641
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Well John after looking at the 3 link cars I have ordered parts to build one. I an starting with a new chassis plate that way I can easlly convert back if need be. I an going to be racing on carpet. I will let you know how it works and any adjustments I make...

Dave D
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Old 02-27-2009, 10:08 AM   #642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quante View Post
Ahaa, I knew the std side springs from CRC would be enough to provide spring action (planned on using em in my 1/12th)
John, do you have any idea what would happen if I (in my 12th) were to use a panhard bar and still keep the top link a shock with spring???

In my "vision" during accelleration it will transfer the weight to the rear using the side springs and the top spring, the side springs will provide way more stable forward bite because the will make sure the weight isnt applied to a point (link car) but rather 2 points (panhard/ T-bar).
This will also make that I would use the center spring's damper for damping the vertical movement of the chassis.

For side spring action I would still keep the damper tubes.

Down side on this, a hit to the rear will tear the center shock apart....
Quante-The side springs do seem to be stiff enough. My only concern is will they stay put with this more severe duty.

When the car accelerates antisquat creates a tension or pulling force on the top link. This is what transfers weight from front to back. When you use a shock for the top link this pulling force is dissipated by shock and center spring action. Less weight can transfer. I think this is the main adavantage of the 3-link so I would get rid of that center shock.

Now for the Physics of your plan. At present the pod cannot move toward back or front with either center pivot or 3-link. It can with Panhard bar without center pivot. This is not desirable as far as I know. One problem is the pod may strike the chassis rear in bump. The wheel base is changing. It cannot with T-plate, but then a Panhard bar is not needed with a T-plate as the T-plate duplicates the function.

STSdave-Good Luck! give us a pic and later a report when you are done. Be glad to answer questions by PM or in the thread.

John

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Old 02-27-2009, 08:21 PM   #643
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Here is a pic of the baby Watts link I constructed and the double Link that it was built on. The Original goal was to put a ballstud in each end of the part which would have made a very flat arrangement. The dimension of the part was too long so I ran ballstuds out the front of the part. It would have needed a reverse cone washer which is out of view on the back side to keep the rotation of the center restricted to a geometric plane.
I had absolutely no room in front of the center post due to center mounted batteries, but it might work in some other application.

Next is a picture of a double ended carbide 82 degee countersink from McMaster.com. It was advertised incorrectly as having a .082 tip leading me to believe it was a center drill. Happily it was just a countersink, as I broke that brittle .082 carbide tip off in my mind about 10 times before even receiving the part in the mail. (No chuck runout or endplay would have been tolerated). This should stay sharp in my shop for a long time. A M42 cobalt steel or high speed center drill (I posted the part number previously) should supplement it.

This 1/8 chucking reamer below the part is meant to be turned in a drill. I plan to align the holes in the upper CRC A-arms with this tool. You must align or open up the holes until the arm falls free from gravity alone or you will loose valuable traction. The main problem seems to be a slight misalignment created as the plastic cools. This is probably indirectly related to that first brace on the A-arm being farther away from the inner hinge pin holes than previous versions of this arm.


I ran the new 3-link in the Driveway. Things were going very well. I ran mostly an oval. Started with 69/23 gears and a 10.5 motor. I had an expansion joint to test those stock rear springs which are now being used in bump and rebound. They stayed in place.

The rear has good roll stiffness. It will slide out if you corner too sharp. I reduced dual rate and steering endpoint. It was driving very well. Then as most guys do, I gave it full throttle and it darted right into the weeds flipped over and killed the little driver.. Ready for a test on the big track. New driver is hired on.

John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-watts-link.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-counter-sink-chucking-reamer.jpg  

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Old 02-28-2009, 03:41 AM   #644
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Stranahan View Post
Thomas-I did test a rear diffuser. It was made of LEXAN and attached to the bottom of the pod. Just after the back of the bottom plate it v'd upward. It was the full width available between the tires. I was not able to notice any effect on oversteer understeer balance; this usually picks up any aero changes. At the time I was using a soft air dam that was only 3 mm above the track. It is possible that there was just not enough air under my car for it too work. With a front diffuser now, I don't need the soft dam and can have a generous 6 mm clearance at the front to clear all lbumps. Results might be different with the heavier air flow.

I noticed one very elaborate car with a full belly pan and rear diffuser over in Europe. I noticed in subsequent pictures of his car that the rear diffuser was gone there as well.

On full size LMP cars, I believe that air is channeled from various sources like, the front wheel wells, under front diffuser air, and then directed under the rear diffuser. What we have missing is that channeled air.

If I was building it again I would make sure and put vertical strakes and side dams so that any negative pressure created would not be lost at the sides. The vertical strakes keep the air channeled and going straight.

John
Thanks. Would a true 'flat pan' chassis work better than one with cut-outs for batteries and weight-saving?

From the above I would assume so, as the air cannot be diverted upwards through the chassis, only sideways where the chassis plate stops. So the trick would be to prevent the air from escaping from the sides of the chassis, AND channel that air towards the rear diffuser. Although there still is the problem of the rear pod's lower plate cut-outs for the motor and attaching it to the main chassis...

Now on my EV10 I have a rather narrow main chassis plate (see first picture, second pic is with the pod attached...). It also has minimal cut-outs. The cut-out at the front is just below the graphite plate that holds the front suspension (perhaps perfectly suited for a small front diffuser?).
Now let's say I was to add a profiled undertray that fitted into the space between the chassis and the body that would 'catch' the air in two channels (one at each side of the chassis) and lead it towards the rear pod (inbetween the rear wheels and the actual pod). There's a couple of unused holes on the front of the lower pod plate that could be used to attach an elaborate diffuser that would first channel the air collected by the profiled undertray past the motor and then into the diffuser.

Any thoughts on whether this could have undesired effects? Too much downforce ? Might I get into trouble with the rear suspension needing to be hardened too much?

Weight is not an issue, my car is 150 grams too light with a lipo on board .

Oh and before someone asks how I got my electronics installed on that car, you can see how in the last picture . So few room...
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-chassisplaat.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-chassisenmotorpod.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-overzichtnu.jpg  
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Old 02-28-2009, 09:42 AM   #645
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Thomas - Front Diffuser - To be most effective it should run the full width of the nose. If you use that opening for the diffuser you should add some side diffusers to reach the edge of the body.

Rear Diffuser-Becasue that European car with full width belly pan no longer wears a rear diffuser, I would say to abandon it. I like your side channels, but when you get to the back there is no under chassis room to divert the air to the center of the chassis; that is what is needed.

I have one report (not a very direct report) of an oval car that developed too much downforce from underbody devices. It had a full belly pan. It would scrub too much speed in the corners.

A flat chassis without cutouts is better for aero purposes. It can be accomplished with tape.

So there you have a mixed report.
John

Last edited by John Stranahan; 02-28-2009 at 10:18 AM.
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