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Old 05-25-2008, 08:58 AM   #46
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Old 05-25-2008, 11:56 AM   #47
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John, What time are you going to the track today? I'd like to see that new "axe" of yours. Probably won't bring my stuff, but could bring some spare kingpins and springs etc if you think it might help. Let me know.

Barry
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Old 05-25-2008, 12:02 PM   #48
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Barry-I am leaving right now. My kingpins are threaded on top. The typical associated will not fit. Mine are already as long as possible. I might try those barrel shaped Beehive Springs that are new at Windtunnel.

John
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Old 05-25-2008, 12:09 PM   #49
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I'll see ya in a few then. I haven't gotten my quota of sweating for the weekend yet.
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Old 05-25-2008, 05:53 PM   #50
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Track Report
Hot as Hell 100F Dusty, poor to medium traction

Barry and I had quite a long tuning session. Mostly tuning talk but we got in maybe 35 minutes of track time and a series of experiments in. Now let me say that in poor traction conditions every fault of the pan car is magnified. If you can get it to drive well in poor condtions when traction comes up, I find I can just drive faster and harder with few changes the car.

So the major problem was corner exit hooking and for Barry mid to late corner hooking if you tried to apply power to get the car to push out on corner exit. Here are some of the moves we made.

Firstly we examined the CRC kingpins. It seems that windtunnels large cylindrical springs will fit fine in a hollow of the lower A-arm without a spring bucket and without touching the pivot ball. This is good news and gave me that much needed extra kingpin length to match the Windtunnel springs. I could now set the preload to 0 and have adequate droop on either side of the car. This did not help the corner exit hooking but made the front end well planted on corner entry.

A faster heavier servo I installed the night before did not help matters. It will survive more abuse though. There was a theory by one racer that a quicker return to straight helped this corner exit problem.

Next we went from GRP pink front to BSR pink fronts. The BSR's have more grip. This helped both me and Barry with the corner exit hooking but Barry only a little.

We put on a purple right front. Amazingly this did little for either of us. The car was about the same. Apparently with the light front springs that left front is doing good work.

Now Barry's theory was the rear end was kicking out and I could see this was the case mid corner. So we put on a big rear wing. This helped me only a little with corner exit hooking, but I thought I could now race the car if I had better traction. The car was still pretty much undrivable for Barry.

We put on BSR rears. Little improvement.

We cut the center spring tension in half to 3.5 lbs. This helped little and I was now getting scratches on my tape. I am going back to 7.5 lbs.

Next we added more left down tweak by screwing left that right hand shock collar. This seemed to help Barry the most. I thought I could drive it a little harder as well. This adjustment reduces steering traction.

We still need to make more progress on this corner exit problem. I can move the motor forward with a big spur huge pinion. This should tighten the car. I can move the motor left to tighten the car. I am not sure if this is the reverse of what needs to be done. I'll test again mid week.

Barry noticed that my car had good punch and acceleration. Some of this is from lightening rotating parts. Some from the shorter 12 gauge wires. Most is probably I am geared 3 teeth less on the pinion at 3.20 inch rollout. The guys using 3 more teeth in the last race exceeded 200F motor temps one at 219F. That is not good.

Pic shows the Windtunnel spring using no upper spring bucket and now no preload with plenty of clearance at the wheel. I sanded the kingpin slightly shorter as well to clear the wheel as it flexes. I checked the GenX-10 manual. The original progressive spring is supposed to go on pointy side up with no upper spring bucket, touching the pivot ball. This cylindrical spring seems to work fine as well with no upper spring bucket.

John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-kingpin-spring-mod-003.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 05-25-2008 at 10:09 PM.
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Old 05-25-2008, 08:11 PM   #51
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John - I think it might be helpful if we could get one of the CRC oval team drivers (Steve or Roman) to post an asphalt setup here (or on hobby talk), so you at least had some kind of a starting point. I just scoured the net, but could only find 2 setups and both were for carpet. Being that CRC is trying to break into the oval market, I'm a bit surprised there isn't a lot more hype/support about this car out there. Oval has the smallest market of all the various types of RC racing, but has more companies marketing cars/chassis then any other area of RC racing.

Not trying to bust anyones chops, but I did find this slightly frustrating.

I wish I would have brought my car out today, as it would have been an indication if the hooking problem was setup or track related.

Nonetheless, I had a good time trying to get this new car of yours working with you. I think this car has a lot of good new ideas built in. I guess only time will tell how competitive it will be.

I had some time to think about the absence of the T-plate, and I don't think it will have much effect on side springing, but only to a certain extent on center springing. If I remove all 3 shocks on my L4, there is no resistance side to side, but a slight amount from back to front. My guess is that you would run about the same side springs, but a slightly stiffer center spring. I think for the most part, the primary purpose of the t-plate is to simply hold the rear pod to the chassis.
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Old 05-25-2008, 08:30 PM   #52
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The difference i have found between a T bar setup and link setup is the location of the forward pivot. The forward pivot on a T bar is much further forward than on a link car. The pod actually lifts a little on a T bar car as suspension compresses. I have found in our onroad car that the further rearward pivot seemed to increase rear traction. This has my gears in my head turning though. Can you guys explain a little deeper as to what you mean by hooking? Is the rear wanting to wash out on corner exit? I wonder if a rear wheel is lifting causing the loose feeling. Very interesting.
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Old 05-25-2008, 08:53 PM   #53
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rcbarrmeister don't mistake take what I saying. I'm NOT attacking you whatsoever just CRC. I've had a bad day and being old and grumpy I apologize.

[QUOTE=rcbarrmeister;4477539]John - I think it might be helpful if we could get one of the CRC oval team drivers (Steve or Roman) to post an asphalt setup here (or on hobby talk), so you at least had some kind of a starting point. I just scoured the net, but could only find 2 setups and both were for carpet. Being that CRC is trying to break into the oval market, I'm a bit surprised there isn't a lot more hype/support about this car out there.


John was trying to get this car from CRC and couldn't, that is why he is running my car now.[/B]

Oval has the smallest market of all the various types of RC racing, but has more companies marketing cars/chassis then any other area of RC racing.

Not trying to bust anyones chops, but I did find this slightly frustrating.

Frustrating? I give up on CRC.

I wish I would have brought my car out today, as it would have been an indication if the hooking problem was setup or track related.

I more then thank you for joining John today.

Nonetheless, I had a good time trying to get this new car of yours working with you. I think this car has a lot of good new ideas built in. I guess only time will tell how competitive it will be. QUOTE]
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Last edited by lidebt2; 07-22-2008 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 05-25-2008, 10:30 PM   #54
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Barry-It would be nice to look at those carpet setups in the meantime. Give me a link.

Rick-some of the problems you are having stems from CRC being a small company. That Gen-X-10 manual was a help. Bigger companies like Associated tend to get all of the pieces of the puzzle together a little faster and at the same time. They have more hands on board. This includes, manuals, setup, website listings showing all the replacement parts etc. Don't be too frustrated and be positive with your correspondence. I have been in the same boat as touring cars were introduced with no parts available. Just a manual. That is frustrating as well. It usually takes Frank a month or so before he responds to PM or things in my Pantoura thread. He is busy with travel a bit as well as being responsible for many pieces of the marketing puzzle. He does not owe me a car or anything like that. I just requested one to test (not so humbly).

Jason- We had two problems. Both of us had corner exit hooking. Now this is what I see. The car is cornering, you have reached the straight, you give it a little throttle along with straightening the wheels to start your throttle roll on and the front of the car darts to the inside board. You don't see the rear end slide out like in a typical mid corner spin. Now Barry was happy to make many mid corner spins as well. That's why we worked on rear grip later. I pretty much hold throttle constant for the full turn. I had no mid corner spins to any great degree. I am a little more happy with excess steering. If I am at what I think is the cornering limit, I know it can't stand any more throttle for the most part until exit. I don't normally use throtle to push the nose out. I have excess steering so more throttle would just spin the rear out during the major part of the corner.

Now an interesting thing is that if you hold throttle and straighten the front wheels you will also get a corner exit spin. (very slippery today). So its not really to do with throttle more with straightening the wheels.

Now I will tell you that at the end of the session I could drive it just fine and do 10-15 laps without an error. When the grip comes up I can probably race the current setup.

What I have done for the next session is move the motor left one 1/8 inch spacer. Gone back to the medium center spring. Took most of the pinion elevation out by making the chassis and pod more flat. I am looking into moving the motor forward but I will need a 50 tooth pinion.

At the end of tuning my 3-link car I had solved the corner exit hooking by rotating the pod counterclocwise when viewed from above. When you increased throttle the car would more naturally steer to the right. It exited perfectly straight with very quick throttle roll on when the pod had the correct rotation. (rear steers left car goes right). Next, I increased steering with an Ackerman change. I could go to full trottle mid turn and hold it until the next corner entry. It was faster than the competition this way. I never practiced holding that full throtte for so long much (just a week) so in the race I only did it on occasion. Back to old habits holding throttle steady. When Nat Dog was right on my ass (3 laps down) trying to tag me I used that full throttle more.

I edited in this text up above. I thought I would repeat it.
"I checked the GenX-10 manual. The original progressive spring is supposed to go on pointy side up with no upper spring bucket, touching the pivot ball. This cylindrical spring seems to work fine as well with no upper spring bucket."

John

Last edited by John Stranahan; 05-25-2008 at 11:07 PM.
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Old 05-26-2008, 05:03 AM   #55
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Hmm, interesting. This is just a shot in the dark here because i have not messed around with oval much. I will be so i will learn alot more. My question is have you ever tried running a harder spring on the right shock than the left shock instead of more preload on the right shock? Just curious to see what the effects would be. I would think you could tweak the car straight and have the benefit you are looking for. I could be completely wrong so feel free to say so.
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Old 05-26-2008, 07:38 AM   #56
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Cut and Paste is just as easy for this, but the link for one of the threads on Hobby Talk is below:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=207514

Setup #1

Here's my base setup last time I ran. I don't get to race as much as I like.

Center wheelbase and width.
L/F assc. .020 spring no preload 30k lube, R/F assc. .018 spring with .020" preload.
Center Shock #2 HPI piston 60 wt. oil with Blue HPI spring
Sides 35 wt. oil Gold on right and blue on left.
3 pinks and a purple R/F, L/R tucked in tight and .060" spaced out on right. 12.9 oz. L/R
Proto Toyota

This is what I ran in 13.5 last weekend. It should give a decent baseline for less than smooth track.


Setup #2

Here is my set-up (note: my track is hook & loop carpet):

Center wheelbase and width. (sometimes LF moved to the widest setting)
L/F assc. .020 spring 40/1000 droop, red finishline lube, R/F assc. .020 spring with no preload, red finishline lube.
Tamiya Center Shock #2 piston 40 wt. oil with HPI yellow progressive
Sides 40 wt. oil Copper on right and Copper on left.
On loop carpet LR = Pearl, RR = White, LF = Green, RF = 70/30 Gray-Sliver(On Ozite...3 pinks and a purple R/F)
L/R even w/ the battery tray and .060" spaced out on right. 13.4 oz. L/R
Proto Toyota

The only changes I would recommend to that set-up, for most tracks, is to soften the shock springs. Our track is ultra-smooth so I can get away with a very stiff setting. For most tracks I would drop the side springs down to red or gold and the center down to the 16-18 pound range.


The first setup may be close for our track, but I'd start off with much softer springs all the way around.
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Old 05-26-2008, 08:10 AM   #57
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John, Here are some things that another racer experienced at a track in FL (that is very similar to ours), and the steps he took to correct the problem.

I saw alot of cars loose Sunday including my car and heard alot of b!tching about the track so I thought I would post some stuff that I did to get the rear of the car hooked up.

My car had way too much steering so I spent most of the morning trying to dial some out. I probably started the day with the worst 10.5 car!

First thing I did was add wedge until the car pushed off then took it to the scales and wrote down the LR weight 14.2. With on center T plate. Then I moved the LR out and took some of the wedge back out an turned a few more laps, That helped a but the car still wanted to get loose at the end. I took camber out of the lf and the rf and it seemed like the car was a little more stable. The last thing I did was mess with traction compound. I put it on the rears and the lf nothing on the rf. That was the best the car drove all day. Also make sure you have some sag in the LF spring!!

dbl pink lf purple rf
pink lr pink rr

1 1/2 lf -1 1/2 rf camber
5 deg lf caster block 0 deg rf
Wolfe green front springs

Associated blue side springs with 35 weight AE
Rc4less Green center # 4 angle, 50 weight AE # 2 piston

Batteries .70 off rear pod
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Old 05-26-2008, 09:47 AM   #58
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Richard,

Sorry for your frustration. I know we have e-mailed back and forth a few times, talked a few times on the phone and very recently on Hobbytalk I had posted something with regards to a question you had. You are asking us for a full assembly manual that just doesn't exist yet. But as I said, it will be available.

CRC takes pride in our instruction manuals. Our manuals are among the best in the best, especially in the pan car market. We don't just take photos of our cars with circles and arrows. Our cars are fully modeled and rendered in 3D using the latest 3D software. Our instruction booklets are generated from those 3D models. Believe it or not, getting all the 3D drawings into instruction booklets is more cumbersome and tedious than actually making the parts. Seems that it is easier to make parts from the drawings than make instruction booklets.

We have been working on the design of the Battle Axe oval car for years. Making prototypes, testing, etc.. Sometimes we had to put the project on hold for a while.... then redesigning and finally pressing the "go" button on the car. Unfortunately, the project got pushed late into the 07/08 indoor season. Rather than delay the release of the car waiting for an assembly manual, we decided to make a pre-production run of the cars PRE-BUILT. The cars came built with instructions for the 1:10th Pro Strut front end and durashocks, the actual chassis parts were built with no assembly instructions. And, short of your request, we have not had anyone looking for an assembly manual.

The car has sold well, set track records and won a few big races, this all with a late January release. With the oval season coming to the end in the spring and the fact that we are very busy with the Gen-X 10 car, we have had to delay the full production release of the Battle Axe. The full production release will have the same car and parts as the pre-production, but this car will be in kit form and include the full assembly manual you have been requesting.

I apologize that we have not been able to deliver the full manual to you. As I mentioned in an e-mail and the Hobbytalk forum, the front end, diff and shock instructions are fully modeled and shown in the Gen-X 10 manual that is available online. Also as I mentioned, I tried to e-mail this manual to you a couple of times but it bounced back as it is too big for e-mail.

In the end, we have communicated back and forth on quite a few occasions giving all the support we could, unfortunately, we just don't have what you need right now (the assembly manual), but we will.

Kind regards,
Frank





[QUOTE=lidebt2;4477683]rcbarrmeister don't mistake take what I saying. I'm NOT attacking you whatsoever just CRC. I've had a bad day and being old and grumpy I apologize.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcbarrmeister View Post
John - I think it might be helpful if we could get one of the CRC oval team drivers (Steve or Roman) to post an asphalt setup here (or on hobby talk), so you at least had some kind of a starting point. I just scoured the net, but could only find 2 setups and both were for carpet. Being that CRC is trying to break into the oval market, I'm a bit surprised there isn't a lot more hype/support about this car out there.


There is NO support for this car BUT according to CRC it will be soon. RIGHT! I have been calling CRC for weeks and I mean weeks now trying to get info on this car and all that I heard from CRC is that it is coming. John was trying to get this car from CRC and couldn't, that is why he is running my car now.

Oval has the smallest market of all the various types of RC racing, but has more companies marketing cars/chassis then any other area of RC racing.

Not trying to bust anyones chops, but I did find this slightly frustrating.

Frustrating? I give up on CRC.

I wish I would have brought my car out today, as it would have been an indication if the hooking problem was setup or track related.

I more then thank you for joining John today.

Nonetheless, I had a good time trying to get this new car of yours working with you. I think this car has a lot of good new ideas built in. I guess only time will tell how competitive it will be. QUOTE]
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Old 05-26-2008, 10:23 AM   #59
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QUOTE=Team CRC;4479411]Richard,

Sorry for your frustration.The car has sold well, set track records and won a few big races, this all with a late January release.

In the end, we have communicated back and forth on quite a few occasions giving all the support we could, unfortunately, we just don't have what you need right now (the assembly manual), but we will.

Kind regards,
Frank
[/QUOTE]

If you will be in your office in the morning we will talk about it. You tell me the time and I will call. I will Not bring this to John's Article here.
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Old 05-26-2008, 11:31 AM   #60
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Thanks for the posts all.

Plenty of suggestions to try. I will stiffen that right rear spring. It will be able to apply the proper left down tweak better. I'll put it on the corner weight scales later today to see what I have.

Note that this corner exit hooking problem is not peculiar to oval. Every pan car that I have driven (the list is long) had this same problem on a dusty track. On the road course you delay throttle roll on a few milliseconds till the wheels are straight and you eliminate the problem.
John

Last edited by John Stranahan; 05-26-2008 at 12:07 PM.
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