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Old 01-30-2009, 11:31 AM   #556
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Track Report-I had an interesting session on the concrete parking lot as work is now underway renovating the asphalt at Mikes-HobbyShop.com. I used the new transverse shock tower 3-link oval car. I treated the track with 8 lbs of sugar, but I feel this was not enough on the very porous concrete. There was not enough sugar left on the surface to bind up all the dust. I blew the track off well. The car came back to the pit with a white topcoat of dust. I tried several tires on the back and front. I ended up with pink fronts and purple rears. The rear was still too planted in the corners but had great forward traction out of the corner. I had a moderate push. I think I will need a stiffer spring set at the back. I did not have enough time to try the offset pod car.

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Old 01-30-2009, 02:43 PM   #557
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Oval news
I have a PM from a trusted source that I might try narrow rear tires on the concrete if my push continues. I am going to try springs and simple front end adjustments first but may consider that if other things fail. Heck I even have right rear steer available on this car in any quantity. I don't want to ruin the good corner exit manners though.

Wide Pan, Very good News

I have wished for it and here it is. A wide pan body from protoform with a full width front end diffuser. It almost looks like a rear wing that you should cut out and use on the back. PERFECT. They have read my mind over there (maybe my thread) or maybe it was just meant as a good splitter. Anyway here is a pic. No extra hand work or tape required; it has the perfect shape. It should work well. I am surely going to give it a very high speed test not too long from now. Paint scheme will mirror the Peugeot 908 Prototype.

I have fit the body now and this aero device may only be used as an under car diffuser if the body can be mounted low enough to knife edge the front splitter. Other wise there is going to be turbulence under the splitter (if you use the factory trim line). You would need short tires to knife edge the splitter and lower the body. I will try that HPI plastic wing under there with the bigger tires. It looks like an almost drop in fit.

Many of the LMP and GTP cars have scoops of various kinds. The 905 B had a top of the roof air intake scoop. The 908 has huge scoops for radiator cooling air and engine air on the side. I plan to retain my high mounted LRP TC edition speed control and give it a nice painted scoop. What I am using now is the blister pac from a C cell battery. Other ideas would be helpful. It would be nice to have a little shape to it (OK the best shape might be the current F1 motor air intake scoops above the driver.

Wide Pan Axle
I have robbed my wide pan of one of the wide pan rear axle adaptors for an oval car project. I replaced it with a wide pan axle and red spacers from Hyperdrive. The cost was $48 which does not include a right hand hub. You maybe can see a little more why CRC offered their kit with hub adaptors to control cost. I don't think changing to a wide axle is neccesary from a performance standard. I did not notice the adaptors causing any lag on the track at all. Discussion and test above. Part numbers above.

John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-hyperdrive-axle-spacers.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-peugeot-908-compressed.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-peugeot-905-b-protoform-full-width-diffuser.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-peugeot-005-b-protoform-full-width-diffuser-mounted-002.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 01-30-2009 at 07:20 PM.
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Old 01-30-2009, 03:07 PM   #558
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The shop owner took my car for a spin. Within a couple laps the camber block snapped right between the screws after a sideways drift into the PVC. It seemed like an odd part to fail, but live and learn. Time to find a 4/40 tap and order some more plastic ones.


Anyone using the aluminum ones? how would you rate them vs. the plastic ones? Do they come in pairs.
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Old 01-30-2009, 07:08 PM   #559
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I am using Aluminum Reactive Caster Blocks. There are quite a few recent pics in the thread. They are stronger than the plastic part. Nicer looking. They do come in pairs. 0 or 5 or 10 degree.
Note that this car has no optional nerf wings. Their previous car the Pantoura had bolt on nerf wings.


I put a new pic and red text in my previous post after I mounted the body. RE: Diffuser.
john

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Old 01-30-2009, 10:51 PM   #560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Stranahan View Post
I am using Aluminum Reactive Caster Blocks. There are quite a few recent pics in the thread. They are stronger than the plastic part. Nicer looking. They do come in pairs. 0 or 5 or 10 degree.
Note that this car has no optional nerf wings. Their previous car the Pantoura ha bolt on nerf wings.


I put a new pic and red text in my previous post after I mounted the body. RE: Diffuser.
john

Woops, I meant to say caster.
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Old 01-31-2009, 02:36 AM   #561
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Now you why I've lobbied or 3 years to get that peugeot 905B HD back in production!
It is my favourite body!

Here's an article on the original car:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peugeot_905
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Old 01-31-2009, 11:11 PM   #562
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Thanks for the lobying Mathijs. Now is that front aero device a recent development or not. It seems I was getting HD's at Stormer previously without this device on the front.

Body fitment, Chassis Sizing, GenX10, Protoform Peugeot 905 B

I set the front wheel width at it narrowest for the widening kit parts. The front width is 212 mm without camber. This size fits perfectly this style of GTP body. The rear is set at 230 mm. This is perfect as well. You don't have to trim away completely the upper wheel arches which add greatly to the strength of the front and back end. A trimmed but largish 2.360 inch front tire fits in the wheel well while using the factory trim line..

Diffuser
I thought I would explain again what this is as it is quite common on modern race cars these days. Let's take an example at the back. If you have air entering under a car in a nice wide but thin area under the belly pan and then you V the belly pan up to the rear bumper starting about the rear axle, you have made a large rear diffuser. What is needed for the diffuser to work is nice smooth (laminar) flow of air and then the air expands when it meets the apex of the V and continues to expand as air stays attached to the upper surface and the street. 3 inches of air under the belly pan may expand to 18 inches at the rear bumper. This expansion creates vacuum. This vacuum must be contained with side dams or body work. The air is often kept smooth with vertical strakes which reduce any side to side turbulence.

So is this device at the front of the Peugeot a diffuser. Well no. It's got a couple of big problems that you can see in the photos. First at the suggested trim height there is a lip. Well between that lip and the first flat section under the wing there is going to be a rolling type of turbulence created. A cylindrical shaped vortex about the height of the lip and as long as the width of the car. You will not have laminar flow. There will be no reason for the air to attach to the bottom of the front wing. A second problem is at the end of the wing there is not a smooth joining of the wing into the body of the car. You will get another set of turbulence for any air that does attach and expand. Expansion will stop there. No doubt that normal downfoce is created on top at the expense of some extra drag. What I am after is that downforce underneath the device which from my test must be 2-3 times as great and comes with little drag penalty. My solution here was to add my second HPI plastic wing from the set. This is the mono wing and is slightly less suitable than the bilevel wing on my other GTP car. Here is a pic. It does two things. It allows laminar flow to enter under the car in a broad flat area of the wing. It gradually expands the air by curving upward and then fills in that big gap at its rearmost edge. One tape strip on the rear edge willl further smooth the expanding flow here. Tape will create the outside edges of the wing as I had to sand that part of the shape away that was not suited for this applications. I have it bolted in front with four 2 x 56 Red Calandra Aluminum Screws and locknuts. This tiny screw seems to be more suitable for some of these aero devices.

I found the blister pack from a single 9V battery to be the ideal size for the scoop over the speed control. This will mirror the big scoop for the radiator on the full size 908 race car. If I can duplicate the trapezoidal shape it will really look cool.

I am starting to like these body mounts for this car Man you can really set the body where you want it and only a screw head will show. The small holes seem to be very strong. Since my battery is bottom loaded, I may not even have to remove the shell very often.

Side dams were not included. Cut a template from a piece of paper to fit the area. I used the plastic side of a CD case that is used to send me free CD's through the mail. .030 clear lexan is also good. I used one 4-40 and one 2x56 screw at the very front. The front screw cannot be into the tire bump area or it will rub the tire. That means a tiny screw hard to put in quite high in the body at the front of the side dam moulded in support.

This is going to look magnificent. Quite exciting.

This is kind of theory at this point. I am going to talk a little about driving a wide pan. At first you will find a tendency to loose the back end in the corners. Of course you should tune the car to avoid this. After a while you will find that the way to drive the car really fast is by steering the car such that the thrust from the back is not diverging you from the race line, while both the front and back are in a drift. In other words you steer the car correctly to avoid the spin rather than screwing with throttle to avoid the spin. You can drive it as fast as is possible this way. Now once you get to this level of driving you start piling on the mid corner steering. No amount is too much.

One racer uses 10 degrees of caster !
Mathijs changes front end brands to get an improvement here.
I revel in the front diffuser as it really increased my mid corner steering.
I also like the double A-arm front which is unavailable because it is better here.

You just adjust your corner entry speed and steer such that rear thrust does not upset the car. When I add this diffuser I can tell front downforce is double or trippled. I can just watch the front end suck the car down when its going over a bump that launches the touring car including the Nitro touring car into the air. I'll tell you that normally front downfoce even with a wing thingy on front top is very minimal to start with measured in a homemade wind tunnel. Ounces where we need pounds. In spite of the increase in front downforce, I steer the car just fine, I get no extra spins. I just drive the corners a little faster to this new front ends grip limit.
If you add the much wider (and longer) 235 Nitro body, you get a similar increase in steering. You don't have a nimble wide pan any more though. It is a bit clumsy from the extra length. You also add huge drag from this wider front end. That is why these bodies may only be just equal to the pro 10 bodies in expert hands with the same power plant.
I predict adding an underwing diffuser to a pro 10 body will end up being the way to go as soon as someone tries it in a race.
Comments on this stuff from real pro 10 racers (real would be as apposed to me who does not have a pro 10 partner yet) are welcome. You guys in Colorodo, Canada, and Europe. I'll probably be racing the nitros again but expect to move up a couple of places due to the smooth track and better traction that I will have. I was already about 3rd or 4th qualifying against 1/10 and 1/8th Nitros.

Side Scoop
The 9 V battery blister pack plastic made a nice side scoop for the Speed control and mimics the large side scoops on the Peugeot 908 shown. It will be removed and painted white. This setup really keeps the speed control cool when the pavement is 140F.

John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-protoform-peugeot-905-b-hd-ready-paint.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-peugeot-005-b-protoform-mod-full-width-diffuser-002.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-side-scoop-cooling-001.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-peugeot-908a.jpg  

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Old 02-01-2009, 03:17 AM   #563
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Hi John, may i ask, hat kind of bodypost are you using for the Wide - 905b car ? They "look" great, but will they to their work? if yes, any ideas where they can be bought ?

EDIT: John, the RC18 FT shocks that you use for dampening, are they the "front or rear" ones ?

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Old 02-01-2009, 08:07 AM   #564
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The body that was previously sold by Stormer was the Peugeot Medium Downforce (MD), not the Peugeot High Downforce (HD) version.
That MD body is very good as well. It has more steering, but is has a lot less overall downforce compared to the high downforce version.
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Old 02-01-2009, 09:00 AM   #565
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Hi together, I just uploaded some videos on my youtube portal http://de.youtube.com/user/stecher111 from a Pro10 race held in Metteheim in south Germany. Its in fact a very nice Racetrack with some challenging corners

enjoy
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Old 02-01-2009, 09:49 AM   #566
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Mathijs-Thanks. My very first Peugeot body was a lightweight version from stormer. Then they changed to a .030 thick model and described it as HD. That lead to my confusion. I still don't know if that front aero device is a recent addition or always present.

Lotus 111-Thanks for the video clip. That is one fabulous track. Elevation changes, beautiful curbing and grass. How fortunate you guys are. I will peek at some of your other videos as well. Nice video quality.


Thomas-Here are some items needed for the shock installation and a link for the GFR red body posts. I caution not to use aluminum body posts on a graphite front bumper as it will lever the graphite to pieces in a crash. With our GTP bodies those front post have no plastic showing. The plastic in these posts is also stiffer and harder than our normal body posts. I have not road tested these yet but the oval guys use this style a lot.

GFR 1018R Red Aluminum Base, Body Post, Screw type $29.00

Side shocks for the CRC wide pan.
ASC 21082 Ball studs for Associated RC18T $8.59

ASC 21217 Associated RC18T rear Aluminum shock kit $18.39

Dubro 2104 Hex nut 2.5 mm $0.80
or
Duratrax DTXC4212 Locknut 2.5 mm $3.59

Also note you can use CRC red Aluminum side shocks
CRC4281 Red Aluminum VCS "Durashock" Side Shocks $17.99

You will need two 4-40 size ballstuds for the top plate. These holes should then be drilled out to .089 inch and tapped 4-40 to stay out of trouble.
Losi LOSA6001 4-40 x 3/16 Steel Ball stud with two rod ends. $4.50
Dubro 361 4-40 tap and Drill set $5.29


Thanks all for the posts.

Spoiler Chord
One difference between this High Downforce (HD) body and my previous Peugeot body is that the rear spoiler is longer and taller. Roar rules limit your 1/10 GTP style pan to a 2 inch spoiler chord. Now a chord is a straight line that connects two points on a circle. This means that this rule should be interpreted as 2 inches along a flat ruler angled from the lowest part of the spoiler (on the body itself) to the highest point of any extension you add. I only needed about 1/2 inch extension on this body which I was able to cutout of the excess plastic of the body. It had a curve to match the spoiler which was nice. It is a bit thin for a spoiler and may flatten a bit at very high speed, but this is OK as downforce will be huge by then anyway. On my older body I needed a 1 inch extension.

At very high speeds on a full size car a vortex forms at the base of the spoiler which reduces the spoilers effectiveness. The cutouts at the base of the wing are supposed to suck out this vortex and improve downforce. My windtunnel test which did not go to very high speeds showed that cutting out the spoiler reduced downforce. On the track it is hard to notice an effect here on my sweeper. I plan to not make the cutouts which will keep the body stronger amd neater in the back.
John

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Old 02-01-2009, 12:28 PM   #567
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The HD Peugeot hasn't changed since its debut in 1996. Up to a few months ago we could only get the MD version.

I always used an extension on the MD for a little more rear traction.
The HD has a more rearward balance, so I run it without spoiler extension.
The balance is also very much inluenced by the size of the body you leave behind the rear wheel well. Try running one with the body behind the rear wheel well completely intact, then run after run cut away a little at a time.

Also the size of the side damms on the rear wing have a great influence.
The bigger they are, the more air is directed over the rear wing, just like the area behind the rear wheel well.

The cutouts are intended to avoid blowovers.
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Old 02-01-2009, 02:38 PM   #568
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Thank you John for all this information, il be ordering those shocks tomorw

/Thomas
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Old 02-01-2009, 09:08 PM   #569
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Mathijs-Thanks. I see you and Boomer are at odds on the function of those cutouts. The windtunnel supports your reasoning to reduce blowovers as the rear downforce is reduced when you make the cutouts. This is part of the history I promised to deliver.

Thomas-You are welcome. Give us a driving report when you are ready.

GENX10 Wide PAN

Here is the Peugeot 905 b HD body painted up and ready to rip up the asphalt. I like the full downforce rear spoiler on all my wide pan cars at our track. Corner speeds are improved. As they say, fast on the straight is for show, fast in the corners is for the dough. I usually help dry paint coats with a heat gun run briskly over the wet paint. A hair dryer works better. Sadly I made a quick pass of the heat gun over my duct and it warped all to bits in the blink of an eye. It did not look good in white there anyway as I was able to salvage parts of it. I like the fan just sticking through with this paint scheme. It might be more effective with a scoop. Maybe I will try a fan mounted scoop instead of a body mounted scoop. Milled from the solid would be ideal.

Electrics will be
LRP TC edition speed control
Novak 3.5 R motor geared 90/12
5000 mA-h soft sided LiPo from FMA direct. It fits nicely.
Hitec Mighty Mini Servo (as an experiment in durability)
Spektrum receiver, Notice I put the leads entering outboard in the fender area for more clearance.

The colors are metallic red which darkened when spraying the black stripe second. The red looks very rich. The white was first coated with pearl to mute it a bit. Then coats of Sprint White. It has some sparkle from the pearl flakes when viewed up close. A very striking paint scheme indeed.
I need some numbers 908 slanted above the headlights now.
click on the photo. Click once more to enlarge. Then hit your full screen box for the best view.
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-peugeot-905-b-908-colors-resized-006.jpg  

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Old 02-01-2009, 10:31 PM   #570
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Looks cool!
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