R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-24-2009, 12:21 PM   #526
Tech Master
 
pejota's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vero Beach, FL
Posts: 1,022
Trader Rating: 12 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Stranahan View Post
They would be better for my application as I was short 4 balls.
No wonder why i've always felt like less of a man...
pejota is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2009, 08:14 PM   #527
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,777
Trader Rating: 27 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to John Stranahan
Default

Pejota-Its not the quantity but the quality there.

CRC 'Wide Pan Electronics Install, Balance results.

Side Shocks
I found on my outdoor track that dampener tubes quickly fail from grit entry. Photo one shows the Bare RC18T rear shocks. These were an easy install. They fit the inside balls. There was a hole a handy length on the new optional side plates that hold you body mounts. I had the original side plates left over. I countersunk two of the holes and used flat head screws to extend the side plates forward. I mounted my electronics there.

Rear Preload
Front to back balance. The reason for elevating the electronics just a little was to move them far back and preload the rear to get good forward traction. I ended up front wheels on a beam on a scale, rear wheels on a beam on a scale with 5 ounce preload in the back. This is good with a LiPo. The car ended up weighing 43.1 ounces body on. Cornering is little affected by the slight increase in rear center of gravity. Note that this is in stark constrast to carpet 13.5/4 cell use where you want a little more even weight front to back.

Side to Side Weights
The left side tires on a beam on a scale, the right side tires on a beam on a scale, Left 1 lb 2.6 oz, Right 1 lb 2.2 oz. Outstanding. Coupled with the very even left and right pod weight the car should accelerate very straight.

Ready for a road test. I'll put some links up after a while to the relevant sections in this thread that have photos of the checks above.

That is one nice looking road car. Pics to come with a new body. Any questions on the build be sure and ask. One note, I had to very lightly sand the center shock piston by rolling it at an angle to some fine sandpaper. I used 60 weight in the side shocks. I used The kit oil and front and rear side springs. I may have to go with purple tires up front.
Novak 3.5 R speed control geared 90/12
Spektrum water and fuel proof receiver
LRP Sphere Comp TC edition Speed Control
HS5345 Hitec Servo
FMA direct Revolution 5,000 mA-h battery slightly shifted right in the battery compartment. That is a super nice battery compartment on this car. Its easy to take the battery in and out and then its very secure. No batteries laying on the track from this car.

john
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-crc-wide-pan-finished-003.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-crc-wide-pan-finished-001.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-porsche-962-body-001-resized.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 01-24-2009 at 08:25 PM.
John Stranahan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2009, 11:09 PM   #528
Tech Regular
 
s13evo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 361
Trader Rating: 8 (100%+)
Default

woah so nice and clean. Great job once more. this is my favorite thread.
s13evo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2009, 02:48 AM   #529
Moderator
 
Pro ten Holland's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Druten/Holland (Europe)
Posts: 1,677
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Stranahan View Post
CRC Wide Pan Front Adaptors, Wide Pan Gear Mesh
Maybe Pro-ten can give us a body update from over there.
The most popular body choices here:
1. Various Lola's. Serpent, Parma and other.
2. Serpent Porsche
3. Protoform Peugeot HD
4. Protoform Nissan P-35 (available through Corally)
5. Protofrom Peugeot MF (available through Corally)

The Lola's and Porsches are very popular with German racers. These are 1/10th scale nitro car bodies for the older 235mm cars.
The Lola has massive steering and a bizar amount of downforce. The Porsche is slightly understeered in comparison.
Both allow you to use full throttle even in the most twisty infields, making the car very easy and forgiving to drive, even with 7.4V lipo and all out modified motors. This gives for very quick laptimes.
The downside is you need to keep on the throttle all the time to keep the car rolling through the turns.
Another donwside is that this really gives your electronics a workout.
The motors and batteries get really hot, and runtimes are a problem with 5300Lipos and 5 minute heats. Battery life seems seems to sufer because of this.

The regular Pro10 bodies are more popular in the netherlands. They keep way more "roll" in the car in the turns at the cost of driveability. Throttle control is very important and you definitely need a more steady hand to drive the car than with the nitro bodies.
Runtime is not an issue with these bodies and the electronics have a much easier task.

However, in the hands of top drivers, there seems to be not much of a difference in the laptimes between body styles.

My prefernce is with the peugeot HD which seems to be a good compromise between the high downforce nitro bodies and lower downforce Peugeot MD and Nissan.

For a newcomer, I would advise to try the Porsche, since it's the mot forgiving to drive.
__________________
http://www.rc-lemans.de/
Pro ten Holland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2009, 05:33 AM   #530
Tech Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Belgium
Posts: 528
Trader Rating: 6 (100%+)
Default

I went 12th racing in Viol yesterday and I took my pro10 along to show to a few persons that showed intrest. I received a lot of good comments and there were a few extra idea's.
1st, as Pro10holland already said, they are crazy about the 1/10th Nitro bodies. I'll look into getting a Porsche 962, but I'll try it with my Peugeot 905HD first.
2nd, what would it do if I were to put the bodymounts on the front suspension arms and directly on the rear pod???
I can see the advantage of it pressing directly on the tires, but I can also see a main chassis without pressure, other than weight, driving at high speed, which in my eyes will introduce instability.
__________________
Make it idiot-proof, and someone will make a better idiot.
Quante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2009, 08:57 AM   #531
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,777
Trader Rating: 27 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to John Stranahan
Default

Pro ten Holland Thanks-I think I will stick with that Peugeot as well. I certainly don't need more heat in the electronics in summer. Thanks for the detailed report.

S13evo-Thanks

Quante-I believe that if you mount the body to the suspension that the response to bumps which is already poor in the standard pan car will become worse. There is one oval chassis out of maybe 10 different models produced that still carries body mounts to the rear of the top plate on the pod. I think that has been tried and not used so much anymore. Thanks for the report.

Note to all- I will not use those two front Aluminum Body posts nor the graphite bumper to allow space for my front diffuser and for Crashworthyness reasons. I will add a short RPM bumper for Traxxas rustler which I have shown previously on my home built wide pan.


Here is a picture of the installed RPM bumper. Now I am ready to punt. Yes those two front post are tilted forward. No problem with aluminum on this flexible bumper. I did drill and countersink a new hole for that 5th body post.

RPM 81162 Wide front bumper for Traxxas, Requires heat gun for Pan $6.95
John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-crc-wide-pan-rpm-front-bumper-002.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 01-25-2009 at 10:20 AM.
John Stranahan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2009, 12:39 PM   #532
Tech Champion
 
liljohn1064's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Deerfield, WI
Posts: 5,581
Trader Rating: 17 (100%+)
Default

John, What are the part numbers for those body mounts/posts? I'm still new to this type of racing don't know who makes them, but they look awesome.
__________________
John Higgins former student of The Ian Ruggles Negative Reinforcement Driving School. The "Team Principal".
liljohn1064 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2009, 12:51 PM   #533
Tech Master
 
espresso1967's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,102
Trader Rating: 18 (100%+)
Default

John and others, I have been using the Manutech Kydex bumper part # p/n: 100-100 since I blew three of my carbon fiber bumpers and at $25 a pop was getting a bit expensive. The Manutech is only $10 and I can say that I have put them to the test as I have hit hard the last few weeks and all is good in the front end. Had it been the carbon fiber one I can tell you I'd be waiting for a bumper this weekend. So you guys have choices between the rpm that John has pictured or the Manutech one that I am extremely greatful to "Still Bill" for posting on the CRC thread and saving me big bucks.


http://www.manutech.info/rcracinghom...gproducts.html
__________________
www.cityofangelstshirts.com
espresso1967 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2009, 04:13 PM   #534
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,777
Trader Rating: 27 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to John Stranahan
Default

Those body post are from Lefthander-rc.com

GFR 1018RRed Aluminum Base, Body Post, Screw type$29.00

Very nice looking. Somewhat heavy (this is OK if you generally add ballast). Body is put on with screws instead of pins. Don't use the two front ones on a graphite bumper as it levers the bumper into pieces in a crash. I'll review these later this evening along with some more bumper talk. Had a good long test session with two cars today.
John

Last edited by John Stranahan; 01-25-2009 at 05:57 PM.
John Stranahan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2009, 06:04 PM   #535
Tech Regular
 
s13evo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 361
Trader Rating: 8 (100%+)
Default

hey john how did you mount the electronics on top like that. is there a pic of the underside?


thanks
s13evo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2009, 06:24 PM   #536
Tech Champion
 
liljohn1064's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Deerfield, WI
Posts: 5,581
Trader Rating: 17 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Stranahan View Post
Those body post are from Lefthander-rc.com

GFR 1018RRed Aluminum Base, Body Post, Screw type$29.00

Very nice looking. Somewhat heavy (this is OK if you generally add ballast). Body is put on with screws instead of pins. Don't use the two front ones on a graphite bumper as it levers the bumper into pieces in a crash. I'll review these later this evening along with some more bumper talk. Had a good long test session with two cars today.
John
Thanks John
__________________
John Higgins former student of The Ian Ruggles Negative Reinforcement Driving School. The "Team Principal".
liljohn1064 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2009, 06:38 PM   #537
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,777
Trader Rating: 27 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to John Stranahan
Default

CRC Wide Pan, Gen X 10 plus Widening Kit, First Road Test

What a great Birthday (Gen X 10) and Christmas (LRP TC edition) present that was. I gave the CRC wide pan car a good test today. I had two conditions at my disposal. I had kept the oval portion of the track cleaned and treated over the last two weeks. Today the wind was low so it stayed pretty clean and I had medium traction there. I had put in a figure eight there as well. We had stripped the boards off the road track in preparation for a new surface. It has been little used for 3 weeks or so of bad weather. There was lots of dust on it, the kind that when you watch your car from ground level the car is making two tall rooster tails of dust; one behind each tire. I had my Peugeot 905B body mounted (The red and white one pictured above). It has a couple of refinements. One is a full width front diffuser shown in the pic below, the gaping Maw of the car. This aerodynamic aid prevents blowovers at high speed. This is also the reason I use the shortened RPM bumper. I can have a soft bumper, plyable body mounts and the air gap needed for the diffuser to function. I had planned only an oval session for the car. It was very good on the oval. I only needed to turn down the dual rate and soon I was ripping around the oval at very good speed. I had good turn in, good mid corner grip. excellent forward grip. No spins on this treated portion of the track. Tires were the CRC spec World GT tires which again showed great performance on a wide pan. That straight on the dusty track was calling me. In addition the fence had now been taken down, soon work will begin. The new straight should be bump free, but this one was not for maybe its last weekend. I changed to the Road course drivers stand and made a few ripping passes down the straight. The car went arrow straight. I achieve full throttle about mid straight, speeds were near 50mph. NO BLOWOVERS. NO FRONT WHEEL LIFT on the bumps. Now at this speed I had to use every inch of the very wide sweeper to make the turn as traction was low from the dust. I still turned some nice laps. I had good turn in. I did have some spins on the infield. Mostly when I let the car go too slow. I tended to use too much throttle then.
I really like the chassis. The car is supple in the turns from the flex of the narrow chassis. It is not like driving a board with wheels on it around the track. You can see, even with this very low body, some roll in the turns. The raised electronics help out in this respect also. This makes for a forgiving car. The suspension was just perfect with the kit setup (and my RC18T side shocks). The only change I might make is the front springs may need to be stiffer and the front tires purple compound once the traction of the high speed sweeper comes up.

Hub Extensions
After this test, I was thinking about what limits a pan cars acceleration. Normally you have to roll on the throttle after every turn, you are traction limited, on occasion out of a medium speed turn with high grip you can pull the front wheels and then you have to roll on the throttle to keep the car steering by keeping the front end down. Rarely on my layout has acceleration been inertia limited, like when driving a stock TC. So why am I mentioning this. It is because I did not even notice that my rear axle may be a few grams more than absolutely required for the job. Anyway I am going to just call this a convenient way to taste a wide pan without a very expensive upgrade.
Note in the pic that I stole the left rear hub and used it on the oval car for a test later.

GFR Body Posts
Some form of Aluminum Body posts are favored by oval racers. They include all Aluminum models, See Ricks Battle Axe early in the thread, and have screws to attach the body. Early in our oval racing we had about 20 cars. I got to see a lot of graphite front bumper carnage of the type expresso is talking about. It usually went like this. Bumper breaks in the first heat, That car is then dragging the body or the bumper for every heat thereafter because of innefective repair. The car is never competive or satisfying the driver. Then it is replaced at great expense for the next race. What was breaking these bumpers in car to car crashes was the leverage of that long stiff Aluminum body post on the skeletonized members of a super nice looking but brittle front bumper. In head ons into the 2x8 there was little hope for an unprotected graphite bumper. I have never reccomended an all Aluminum body post, for this reason, as well as they add ounces to the car. I have reccomended these plastic body post with aluminum bases. They have several advantages as well as disadvantages. One advantage is body height setup. At the front, I trimmed the plastic 1/4 inch by 1/4 inch until the body post was too short. Then I attached the three front body posts to the body with screws. I stripped one (disadvantage). I repaired it with a longer screw. Now if you aim your setscrews toward the wheel wells you can lift your body to the exact body height you want tighten the three little setscrews and you are set. Same at the back. this is extremely helpful compared to drilling holes in the body post. Now the screws. I imagine this rig was developed on a high speed oval at maybe 60-70 mph. At this speed the friction from 5 body clips may be just barely measurable. This is a good place for button head screws. A wide pan at similar speeds may be another place. Anyway I am giving these a good test. I really was only going to use them for photos as the appearance is just outstanding, but maybe I can learn new tricks as well. I'll put the oval stuff in a post below. These posts are a bit on the heavy side, but I like my wide pan at 43 ounces which is where it ended up without adding ballast.
GFR 1018RRed Aluminum Base, Body Post, Screw type$29.00

CRC Wide Pan Setup for Outdoor medium grip Asphalt

I thought the GenX10 car was almost ready when I went to the track but it needed some more setup.

I set the toe in to 0
I set caster to 4 degrees both sides
I set the tweak. I adjusted tweak springs until they just touched the chassis. Then, I lifted the front in the center with the X-acto. I tightened a tweak spring until the fronts lifted evenly.
My ride height was at 3mm with a 5 mm spacer, I changed to the 3 mm spacer and longed for a 2 mm spacer.
I set the front of the bodies nose even with the bottom of the chassis. I like them both to hit the ground at the same time so to speak. Better if they just miss all the time.
Rear ride height was about 7 mm
I used fairly tall tires as it was slick.
No goo anywhere. No scratches on the bottom. The black kit center spring is stiff enough.
RC18T shocks with 60 weight oil (equivalent to about 25 weight in Associated micro VCS shocks)
chassis and pod flat with a lower ride height at the front; some rake.


I had a gearing problem. CRC has reinforced the front lower-motor- plate-side graphite hole on the lower pod plate with a little bulge. I had complained about this hole previously being on the weak side. I needed to sand most of this bulge off after my motor moved forward by itself. You need rock solid seating of the motors base onto the Aluminum of the motor plate. My gearing put the motor way forward on the lower pod plate. The reinforcing buldge is a good improvement as not everyone will run the motor that far forward. Others should trim it.

I finished up by ripping around the oval again. What fun. I need a wide pan buddy. Ron?

john
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-crc-wide-pan-front-gaping-maw.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 01-26-2009 at 10:31 PM.
John Stranahan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2009, 06:46 PM   #538
Tech Champion
 
liljohn1064's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Deerfield, WI
Posts: 5,581
Trader Rating: 17 (100%+)
Default

Simple setup gotchas and some test results.

Running the 21.5 lipo again. Laps time around the 9.8 mark today. I made the change to the associated locknut on the diff. Huge difference! It doesn't go loose after its adjusted, best simple tip from John S. period. I also did 2 things to the center shock. I changed oil to 30 wt and I made sure the piston was baby bottom smooth around the outside edge. When I worked the shock before I massaged it, it felt like something may have been rubbing. I don't know why I didn't check during assembly, but there was an extremely tiny amount of flashing on the piston. A gentle scrape with an X-acto and all better. Now the shock is smooth, the rebound is mild and lo and behold:

MY TORQUE STEER IS GONE. I can punch it and it doesn't break away. This car is simply awesome. Can't wait for the Sophia body to get back in stock.

To anyone not running the CRC spec tires, they are absolutely awesome on carpet.
__________________
John Higgins former student of The Ian Ruggles Negative Reinforcement Driving School. The "Team Principal".
liljohn1064 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2009, 07:07 PM   #539
Tech Master
 
Ivan Dickson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cali Love USA
Posts: 1,643
Trader Rating: 12 (93%+)
Thumbs up

John this a really good site very detail, you explain everything very well I use to race pan cars in the early 90s(oval & gtp) looking to get back into electric oval I've been looking at the KSG kit...
__________________
SPECIAL THANKS TO ✦ MY WIFE ✦✦ MOTIV RC ✦✦ GRAVITY RC ✦✦ JGO PAINTZ ✦✦ TQ RC RACEWAY ✦✦ TAMIYA RACEWAY ✦
Ivan Dickson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2009, 07:10 PM   #540
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,777
Trader Rating: 27 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to John Stranahan
Default

Offsetting an Offset Pod on the Oval
I had my best recent lap times on the oval today. One reason is I had less wind and dust to deal with. Traction was only medium, though. I had made a custom right hand hub by combining CRC Wide Pan Hub Extension and a standard non offset pod hub. This gave me a hub that is about 8 mm wider than you can buy. I moved the T-plate left 8 mm, and reduced my shim stack inside the left rear hub by three, 1/8 inch spacers or roughly 8 mm. Now the tire just cleared the pod plate. The motor is offset left in the pod by 2 Associated motor spacers. You can't get any more left than this in the back. Note I am driving 13.5/ LiPo. This is probably no good for stock 4 cell because in this class the rear end is too planted.
The car drove great. It pulled really straight to slightly right out of the corner. Corner speed was good and seemed unnafected. I had plenty of steering traction. I could put the car touching the track borders white line in the center of the straight making a nice diamong shape race line if I wanted too. Next time I practice with company I will see if there is much improvement.

XXPink/Purple rears were certainly faster than pinks today.
John

Ivan-Thanks. That is a very nice kit. Hopefully I will be testing a CRC Battle Axe version II after snowbirds. I see that a couple of team guys have the car already.

lilJohn1064-Thanks for the report. Had that same problem with my center shock. It was only a slight rubbing. Same problem as you, very slight flashing leftover. "MY TORQUE STEER IS GONE" So you think this was the diff slipping?

S13EVO. I had the original side plates left over after installing the optional long ones. I used a pair of the matching holes. I countersunk the two matching holes for flat head screws. You can actually do this with a Dremmel and a small stone if you are good with a Dremmel. Other wise use a #4 Countersink bit at high speed. There is very little graphite around these holes expect a little delamination or breakout. This will be hidden by your electronics. Note that the fan will poke up through the body with this mod. It actually fit exactly the hole and duct that I had made for it on my home built pan car. The electronics are lower than the battery strap. I angled my shocks back to get the electronics farther back. The shocks did hide my tweak screws so I pop the shocks off to set tweak.
That 50 mph blasts of cooling air each lap really keeps the speed control cool in the hottest weather.
That front diffuser moves some cooling air above the chassis that was absent before the change. The motor runs cooler.
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-offsetting-offset-pod.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-wide-pan-side-plate-extension-002.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-fan-duct-003.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 01-27-2009 at 01:43 PM.
John Stranahan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks John Stranahan Oval, Larger Scales and More 0 05-25-2008 11:48 AM
Electric 10th scale sell-off (T4 team, Sphere, Transponder, LiPo, Brushless...) floatch R/C Items: For Sale/Trade 27 03-14-2008 04:37 AM
Battle Brushless Sensorless Mamba Max : Trinity N80 VS CM 36 moumerico Electric Off-Road 3 04-12-2007 03:18 PM
Battle of the EPs (On or Off Road)! marzin Singapore R/C Racers 4 09-22-2005 09:27 PM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 12:46 PM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net