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Old 01-19-2009, 06:11 PM   #511
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Offset, Offset Pod on the Oval

Here is a pic of the Offset, Offset Pod ready for a test on the oval. The mod was not particularly easy. I drilled two holes in the chassis for the new T-plate position left 10 mm and back 7 mm to save an important hole (and standoff) in the chassis that supports the cross plate. I turned the cross plate backwards to move my side shocks back. The top plate was transformable with 1 new hole and sanding off one tab. I moved the front steering arms and servo back one hole to cancell effects on the length of the car.

Note that I measured a wide pan right hand hub and that is the length hub we use for an offset pod. They are the same length. This non offset pod hub plus the 15 mm adaptor is about 8 mm longer than our offset pod hub.
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Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-offset-offset-pod-001.jpg  

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Old 01-20-2009, 10:53 PM   #512
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Just thought I shim in here and make any newbie that might be reading this to look over your car once in a while and break it down to make sure everything is good especially if it's your first kit as it is the case with me. I just found out that I had my lower arm on the pro strut on backwards. Not sure if this affected that way the car handled but I will know this Friday when I take it out again with the lower arm on correctly. Now i do give my car an inspecection after a long weekend, but this time the screws that hold the pro strut stripped so I had to order a new upper and lower arm set to replace the lower arm. I looked over the manual and the kit and all looks well now.

Hey John been looking at my pm and threads about pivot balls and the ball stud that holds the center shock and trying to recall if you had recommended replacing the stock pivot balls on the pro strut and ball stud? If you do have a recommendation on an upgrade please let me know as I am ordering extra parts and refilling my stock.

Thanks
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Old 01-21-2009, 10:14 AM   #513
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I've posted this in a couple other threads, but this one is very active and I could use the help.

I'm trying to gear a CRC Gen X Pro 10 for roadcourse. I will be running a Novak 21.5 w/GTB and 25C Yeah! Racing 5000 mAh lipo. I had it geared like an oval car and on an oval it can hold its own under the circumstances. When the car is put on a road course, it behaves nicely at slower speeds, absolutely flies through the corners, but on long straights while easing into the throttle with the car already going straight forward at about 3/4 throttle the rear end either losses traction or I'm hitting the torque band of the motor and lighting up both rear tires and the car drifts left. Tweak, balance, camber, caster, toe in and front end preload have been gone through. The gearing at 100/40 still seems awfully steep for this motor. Rollout is still at around 2.7 or so. I haven't gotten into tire maintenance at this point as I'm a n00b at this. Our track is the CRC brand carpet and is about 6 months old now.


Not adjusted:

I have not set droop or center shock preload. I've just learned how to do this, but the car is not with me at the moment. I'm running the 25 lb spring that came with the shock and the oil is 50 wt.

Any help with gearing or if I'm missing something real drastic let me know. RobK also commented that the car may not be square. I'm guessing that means put the car on a board, center it on a line and make sure the front and rear tires are spaced equally from the center and that the axle is at a right angle to the center line???
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Old 01-21-2009, 11:17 AM   #514
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Expresso-You will want this steel pivot ball to replace the aluminum center pivot ball. The front suspension pivot ball is steel. There is a nice CRC Titanium ball available. It should be lighter and almost as good wearing.

Associated 4336 Steel Pivot Ball 12L for T-plate and CRC center pivot $1.90

The arms are reversible and fit both sides of the car. They do have an extension on the inboard side that ride under the steering links. I imagine your caster was way messed up if the arm was actually upside down. The car should work much better now. Things to examine.

remove the axle, examine the right side axle bearing by spinning it on a pencil tip by hand. Also examine the rightmost bearing under the 8x32 nut, the thrust bearing.

Spin each front wheel bearing on the pencil look for racheting from hitting the boards.

Clean grit out the dampener tubes. They may bind after a while.

If you use goo on the kingpins, the dirt will eventually work its way into the pivot ball. Pop the balls out and give them a good cleaning if there is any friction.

liljoh 1064-You present a very unusual problem on carpet. Loss of rear traction half way down the straight. You can help this problem in several ways. Gear a little lower, get more of your acceleration done before this point. Use a little more rear spoiler if the rules allow it. Roar rules allow a 2 inch spoiler chord on the rear wing. The fact that you are veering left is of little consequence if you are losing traction to both rear tires. Now this assumes a perfect car. Still this sounds so unusual for carpet that you should look at the car itself.

Look for diff problems. Hold the left tire and spur. Make sure it takes a good effort to spin the right tire. If the diff is slipping mid straight you may have steering problems. Make sure you have enough ride height to clear the carpet as downforce is developing on the body. Maybe you need a stiffer center spring. 25 lb/in should be enough.

You have the right idea on square. Check this, but it is not likely the problem at mid straight.

John
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Old 01-21-2009, 11:50 AM   #515
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I'll give it a try. Thanks John.
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Old 01-21-2009, 04:35 PM   #516
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Here as some questions on the GenX10.
They are of general concern so I'll answer them here.

The Gen X Pro Strut upper pivot ball is of steel and does not need to be upgraded for reasons of wear. If you want to make it lighter you can get the CRC titanium pivot balls. Generally on race cars, the less unsprung weight the better the suspension responds to bumps and springs. (And then there is that inerter I tested previously to prove this all wrong).

The center pivot ball should be changed to the steel ball for use outdoors. Pop all the shocks and dampeners off the rear pod. Swivel it around and listen for creaking noises. If you hear any, that center pivot ball is binding up and should be replaced.

Side link pivot balls can also be upgraded to steel for outdoor use. Have your hobby shop order a couple packs of this Losi part.

LosiA6009 Losi JRXS female ballstuds, ball nuts (replace soft aluminum)$5.90


Third: You mentioned goo on the kingpins and wondering if there is another technique here that might be helpful?

I don't particularly like goo on my kingpins outdoors. What I found is immediate entry of grit into the pivot ball area that tended to bind things up outdoors. Indoors it it much cleaner. Try the goo. If you don't notice a difference do without it. It is a nasty mess.

I use latex fabric glue to glue pieces of rubber into chunked tires. Get some at a fabric or crafts store.

The second bearing that needs attention often is the thrust bearing. It is flanged and under the 8x32 nut that you use to tighten the diff with.
john

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Old 01-22-2009, 09:50 AM   #517
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The next thing I'll try now that everything is ready for the next test, except the steering block due in tomorrow, is gearing for a 2.16"/55 mm rollout, 100/29 gearing with uncut stock tires, 2.38".

Last evening I adjusted shock preload, then reset tweak. Made sure I had droop between 1 and 2 mm. Balance is still good and I'm right at 2 lbs 9 oz for weight. I also put the front body mounts on the wide body side mounts and put duratrax body mounts (they look exactly the same) 2 holes longer in front as I was at the last hole on the old fronts. By moving the body up one for the Vette body, I am now about 3 mm off the carpet at the body, 4 mm at the chassis and didn't have to trim the front splitter away. I do have a little excess to trim off the body posts, but it looks right and fits right.
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Old 01-22-2009, 09:21 PM   #518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liljohn1064 View Post
The next thing I'll try now that everything is ready for the next test, except the steering block due in tomorrow, is gearing for a 2.16"/55 mm rollout, 100/29 gearing with uncut stock tires, 2.38".

Last evening I adjusted shock preload, then reset tweak. Made sure I had droop between 1 and 2 mm. Balance is still good and I'm right at 2 lbs 9 oz for weight. I also put the front body mounts on the wide body side mounts and put duratrax body mounts (they look exactly the same) 2 holes longer in front as I was at the last hole on the old fronts. By moving the body up one for the Vette body, I am now about 3 mm off the carpet at the body, 4 mm at the chassis and didn't have to trim the front splitter away. I do have a little excess to trim off the body posts, but it looks right and fits right.
Betcha the 3mm body height is sexy looking; but...

Considering that the body is to the outside of the chassis, I trim the body about .5-1mm higher than the chassis height to allow for any lean in the turns.

And I truly think that the Sophia body has a distinct advantage (front end downforce) over the available Corvette bodies.

Bill
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Old 01-23-2009, 07:31 AM   #519
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Originally Posted by Still Bill View Post
Betcha the 3mm body height is sexy looking; but...

Considering that the body is to the outside of the chassis, I trim the body about .5-1mm higher than the chassis height to allow for any lean in the turns.

And I truly think that the Sophia body has a distinct advantage (front end downforce) over the available Corvette bodies.

Bill
Bill,

The Sophia is my first choice. Its on back order according to the LHS and the Vette was just sitting there in stock. I'm waiting almost patiently for it to come in. Back to what I currently have to run. I think I have the body high enough that I can take a little off the splitter if I still get some rub in the corners without trimming it completely away. I might have to drill a custom hole in the mount to get it at just the right height for your recommendation, but its a great idea. I'll try to get some pics this weekend once its in running order again.
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Old 01-23-2009, 04:37 PM   #520
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Gen X 10, Wide Pan Car
One year ago it was looking pretty bleak for pan cars. Towards the end of the Pantoura thread it seemed that some interest had been rebuilt. Now I can proudly say that we have a wide pan car available and made here in the states. This car consist of the CRC Gen X 10 pan car built mainly for indoor use on carpet (World GT) and then the Widening kit which will tranform the car nicely for large outdoor asphalt tracks. That is more my game. I have purchased a partially comped Gen X 10 and widening kit and will describe the build here. The anticipated use will be a newly rebuilt Mikes-HobbyShop.com outdoor asphalt track. Traction should be good for a long while. The straight will be extra long at about 270 ft to accomodate the 2010 Nitro 1/10 scale world championship. I have some recently learned aerodyanmic tricks under the nose that should keep the car planted at the anticipated speeds of about 70 mph. That is the duty I plan for the car. I will run it with a 10.5 LiPo as well. This may be of general interest.

Buildup Chassis and lower Pod
The following will be some tips on the build. Some of this will be repetitive from my earlier build in this thread. I do have some optional parts available now that I will use in the build.

The photo shows the basis for the rear suspension of the car. It is a center pivot ball (under that red post) and side link car. These pivots must be free. I like to replace that aluminum center pivot ball with a steel one for outdoor use. There is just a lot more dirt and grit outdoors. This keeps the ball working smoothly without creaks and groans.

In the photo you can also see some thin steel Belleville washers under the ball nuts. I have also replaced the ballnuts in the pic with a steel Losi part. The washers pointy side up will improve crash resistance of the graphite and will help lock the nut. Put a Bellevile washer under the center ball also to keep the heights right. The steel ball nuts will provide good wear and smoothess while exposed to grit. Part numbers below.
You don't have add these parts, You can wait until the first rebuild. I would at least put thin washers under the ballnuts. (I have experience here that cost me a bottom plate.)
Sand that plastic pivot plate to size with a Dremmel drum sander and then finish with one of the Fine Dremmel flat sanding disks to improve appearance. The tiny 2 x 56 screws do not have to be absolutely tight. Adjust to make the ball move easily and smoothly.

John

Losi A2909Diff Screw, ,Thin steel Belleville Washers under Ball nuts $3.29
Losi A6009, Losi JRXS female ballstuds, ball nuts (replace soft aluminum) $5.90
Associated 4336,Steel Pivot Ball 12L for T-plate and CRC center pivot $1.90
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-gen-x-10-chassis-pod-plate.jpg  

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Old 01-23-2009, 07:03 PM   #521
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Rear Pod and Diff

Diffrings
This is somewhat controversial, but here it is. I have made many surfaces really flat in my machine and gun work. One 1/2 inch steel plate was made flat to .0001 inch and was of a huge 7 x 10 inch size. It came off a mill about + or - .001 inch. Much handwork and checking was needed.
What you need in a diff ring is a piece of metal that is of constant thickness for the diffballs to work properly. You really don't need one that is free of cup or one that is free of warp. These two defects in a washer are sometimes caused by the punching operation that forms the part from a piece of sheet metal. Generally the uniform thickness of the sheetmetal is preserved in the part in spite of the punching. This uniform thickness is what the diff relies on.

The last (lightened) diff ring of the type I commonly use that I measured was free of cup (it was not cup shaped) and warp (potato chip shape) and was uniformly flat and uniformly thick. I tested it with a dye impression from a flat granite surface plate and by measuring the thickness with a .0001 inch measuring Starrett micrometer. So the question is can I improve the uniformity of thickness by sanding. Well the answer is yes, if you spot sand the thicker parts and then test your results on a surface plate with a dye impression and then a micrometer. If you just sand it by hand on a flat surface and then measure it with a micrometer chances are you will find you have made it worse than when you started. The edges will become thinner at varying lengths from the center. So I say again don't sand them. Instead get a set of carbide balls for the smoothest diff you will ever feel. The tension from the nut removes any Warp. The necessary uniform thickness is preserved by keeping your hands off them. Now, can you win races with sanded rings? Of course. Is the car better than before you sanded, I suspect very rarely. Comments welcome.

Asoociated 6619 Cabide Diff Balls, 1/8 inch (8),$7.00


Rear Pod
This has got to be the nicest looking rear pod in existence. Here are some things I do different than the manual. The screws on the pod will get loose. Do mine tend to stay put after a couple of tightenings, well no, They fall out on the track. I agree with the manual that if you put blue loctite on the Aluminum to Aluminum threads that maybe sometime in the future the screw will not come out. So is there an intermediate procedure. Yes. put the screw in, back it out 3-4 turns. Put blue loctite paste under the head. Just wipe the applicator on the head of the screw. Now tighten the screw. The hole in the graphite and the surface on the bottom of the head will now grip the screw but not so much that it will be hard to remove. So I did this to all the pod screws.
Loctite,37643,stick medium strength blue, $7


48 pitch gears
If you run outside you will find much longer service life, greater strength and the ability to use some light brakes by putting in 48 pitch gears from the start. I used 64 pitch on the asphalt oval for a while. No more. The pinion was stripped of all hard coating every race. That is poor service life. Indoor (with no brakes) the 64 pitch are fine. That is a very nice Kimbrough 90 t 48 pitch in the photo.

Diff Nut
Get an Aluminum 8x32 nylock nut instead of a plastic one to set the diff. You will find with the plastic one that every time you put the car down at the start of a new day that the diff will be loose. The nut has flowed away from the pressure. Fix this anoying problem. The extra weight will not be noticed. Here is a part number.

Associated 6943 Blue Aluminum #8 x 32 tpi Nylock nut for Diff $4.00

Tiny 2x56 ball studs
On the previous Gen X 10, I believe I tapped these two holes with a 2 x 56 tap that your hobby shop may have in the aircraft section. All was good. I read some reports of trouble. I tried putting these two in with just diff lube. They screwed in easy enough but the far one delaminated the graphite. There is very little graphite there. So I recommend again to use a tap on these two tiny holes. This will insure no troubles.

Top plate support post
That red hex standoff does a lot to support that slender top plate. Because of this, I reccomend a steel screw about 3/4 inch long be used in place of the aluminum screw that secures the hex from the bottom. Keep that bottom screw good and tight. I have experience here on Ricks Battle Axe.
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-rear-pod.jpg  
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Old 01-23-2009, 07:06 PM   #522
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Hi John,

If this is the start of a new tutorial, I really appreciate it.

You rock!

Bill
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Old 01-23-2009, 08:07 PM   #523
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Hi John,
What do you think of these sold through acerracing.com N008 1/8" (12) Ceramic Nitride Pro Series Differential Balls $12.99 I have been using these since day one and seem to work well. I am using all 12 for the 3.5.
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Old 01-23-2009, 09:20 PM   #524
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Still Bill-Thanks. Well heck yes. Brand new car.

Expresso-I was planning to list those Acer racing carbide balls as well. I have purchased that set for 7.50 on sale. Very nice. You get the full complement of 12, better if you tend toward bigger spurs. They would be better for my application as I was short 4 balls.

Acer Racing N008 Carbide Diff Balls 1/8 inch (12) $12.99

Rear Pod at 230 mm
Here are a couple of pics of the rear pod with the width at 230 mm with a Novak Motor and the wide pan hub adaptors. My heart beats just a little faster. Now you have to view these adaptors with an experienced RC eye. On the basic Physics of the adaptor, you could have gone alternatively with a completely new right side hub (39 mm), This is longer than our wide pan hub which is 35 mm. You would then also need a new longer axle. (I checked, the axle is not long enough to just use a spacer on the left side), and a custom axle spacer of 1/4 inch ID. What you would have then is a lighter setup with less rotational inertia at much greater expense. Now the question is would your lap times be lower. Might depend on the track. I remember when we ran Mod TC3's. It was silly to use the Aluminum drive axles, as then, the car was just too fast (quick, darty) to drive smoothly. We mostly used steel axles in mod to give the too quick TC3 some more rotational inertia. Now on a long track you might not see this advantage to the heavier axle, but then the difference might not be as much as you might expect. So I will finish by saying $50 is a very good price to pay for a complete conversion to wide pan. You get the front and the back for the price of one hub and axle. You also avoid the need to use extended pinions if you choose to use the already existing wide pan hub and longer axle that you have in your box. Extended Pinions seems to help kill motor bearings on the 3.5. I may be able to tell some more on this after some track time.

I have already proved these CRC spec rear tires on the mod wide pan. They work very well. The spec fronts worked well on my custom wide pan but you may need purples on the stock front end for good oversteer understeer balance, and for wear reasons. We will see.

Left and Right Pod Balance
I took the pod off. The left and right side are balanced within .3 ounces as in the photo, motor in. The lead wires will add weight to the light side. Excellent.

Anyway Wide Pan right out of the box and package.

I'll mention again that these photos once expanded are slightly clearer and less pixelated; expand by a double click, then you double click them again up to full screen without the black background. They are then the size I made them. Take a look at that ruler near the 23 cm both ways.
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-tires-230-mm-005.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-tires-230-mm-ruler.jpg  

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Old 01-24-2009, 01:42 AM   #525
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CRC Wide Pan Front Adaptors, Wide Pan Gear Mesh

I have finished installing the front adaptors and can now give you some insights into their design which might be puzzling at first. If you look at the second photo you can see that they have generous adjustability for front width. Right now they are set for about 218 mm. They can be made narrower by about 3 mm per side with the small screws. This brings you to 212mm. This is the width of the front of an almost unused RC10L which I measured. This is a good width for standard GTP style Wide Pan Car bodies. Photo 5. These bodies will also accept up to about 220 mm front ends by cutting a little more of the wheel arches out.
There is also a second set of holes to make the width up to 235 mm which makes the front wider than the back. This is useful if you or your group wants to use 235 mm Nitro bodies that were once made for 2 wheel drive 1/8 scale cars. I tried one of these bodies and had too much steering traction. They are starting to use this width body over in Europe for open mod. Maybe Pro-ten can give us a body update from over there.

If you look at the first photo, these are Aluminum Adaptors that I made from billet with a simple task but a fairly complex shape. They are thick on the inner part and thinner near the outboard end. Much like a leaf spring pack. They also angle upward to reduce the need for a small ride height spacer that might always be needed. And so we see the same piece in the second photo in graphite. Three full thicknesses of plate at the chassis including the chassis plate, reducing over distance to a thin but narrow single plate. This provides good stiffness with light weight. The middle plate is an important stiffener. The aluminum part was developed and machined by myself on the Pantoura thread. I also found by widening a narrow chassis and comparing it to several wide chassis that I personally prefered the flex of the narrow chassis on our outdoor asphalt track. I had better cornering traction. I am pleased and maybe mirrored here.

The third picture shows an early widening attempt on a narrow pod using a wide pan hub with an extra spacer inboard of the spur. You notice the poor gear mesh. An extended pinion from Corally or recently from Robinson racing would correct the mesh but would strain the motor bearing more than normal. We ate up quite a few bearings. The fourth picture is a solution that CRC has used in the Widening kit. The spur stays in the same place. The weight balance is perfect, and the gear mesh is perfect as well, at the expense of some extra rotational inertia. More history as I proceed.
John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-wide-pantoura-adaptors-resized.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-wide-front-adaptors-gen-x-10.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-wide-car-rear-wheel-spacers-wide-pantoura.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-rear-gen-x-10-gear-mesh-wide-hub.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-peugeot-905-b-ii-005-resized.jpg  

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