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Old 01-10-2009, 06:18 PM   #481
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Proten- I believe some of those items like the T-bar and center shock will be changed for production. It was noted in another thread that the pod was not a BMI DB10R pod but Proprietary Associated. I see the resemblance to the X-ray. Thanks for your views.

Etienne-I chose the 3800 Orion pack as our spec pack. Some guys will want to play with more powerful motors at some time. Its nice to have the extra capacity for a good run without having to buy another battery. The car will need slightly less ballast with the 3800; it will have more than enough capacity for 17.5 use. I like the nice bumps on the bottom which I have used to secure the pack is some old chassis rather nicely. This is the only reason to use the smaller graphite edition style case as well as the lower cost. I have heard two of these for sale for $160 post a link if you have seen that add.

New lower arm
I am constructing a new lower arm for my dual A-arm independent suspension. The inner part will be similar to Quantes, a graphite plate with two Associated T-plate pivots to bolt to the chassis. This plate will be bolted to the CRC lower arm the same as their long upper arm plate. An RC18 coil over shock will be centered on the Arm!!!. Just like where you would put it on your full size rig. The arm will have a wide base for super strength, Aluminum shear bolts. A mockup looked like I could make it work. Photos to come. Appearance of the homade arm should be improved.
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Old 01-10-2009, 10:53 PM   #482
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Dual A-arm Front Suspension for Wide Pan

If I were starting with a clean sheet of paper or CAD screen. This is where I would want my front coil over shock. Acting right on the center of the lower A-arm (dynamic lower A-arm in this case; it pivots on those t-bar pivots). I was close to this position before. Now I am dead on. This prevents unwanted twisting motion of the lower A-arm in response to bumps. The bump is dampened straight off.
Quantes front end had some good lower A-arms. The inner portion of mine and his are similar. I increased the width of the pivot centers in the arm to 2 inches, up from only about 7/8 inch. This will markedly improve strength. We all know those lower Associated and in this case CRC A-arms are hell for stout. I have one of these to extend my A-arm out. It is attached with two aluminum screws and two large hollow Pins (.243 inch diameter) that are moulded in where the 8x32 screws normally go. It retains the CRC adjustment bolt that takes play out of the lower pivot. The shock body end just clears. The spring just cleared the upper A-arm with only a few thousandths trim. This was helped by the yellow shock ends which are CRC replacement ends for the Losi Mini T shocks. The hole is an exact fit for our 5/64ths hinge pins. This should bolt to the car with two new 4-40 screw holes per side using one of the traditional holes. This front end should be quite stout now. Test will have to wait for our new asphalt.
This particular front end is one that someone with only a CNC router might be able to pump out a few conversion kits. I'll see later on. No new molded parts would be needed. I removed no red from the Aluminum uprights and used them in their normal direction. This means the reactive caster blocks of 5 and 10 degrees may also work.
I believe no steering arm extensions will be needed. I did glue the axle into the steering arm to remove the rear nut and necked down threaded shaft from the axle for clearance near the shock.

What is improved
shock effectiveness
Steering travel or throw is increased over front mounted shock.
Steering link clearance is improved by running the upper A-arm in the same direction as a stock upper arm.
Reactive Caster Blocks may be usefull now.
Ruggedness of the Lower A-arm mounts are increased probably 10 fold or more.
You can still shim the whole suspension up by removing four screws. Or you can dial in the ride height with the coil over shocks' adjustment ring, or set ride height by reshiming the kingpin.
I am pretty exited about this front end as it was easy to manufacture with existing parts and only minimal hand work.

What is retained From the Previous Dual A-arm Front End
Roll center adjustments at kingpin, upper arm mount, or lower arm mount
Roll center adjustments are independent of Camber adjustment
Dampened coil over RC18T rear shock.
Caster adjustment by shimming upper inner hinge pin
Similar low weight.
Unequal length A-arms that provide superior traction on and asphalt road course or oval course.
Very low suspension to clear all GTP bodies.
John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-dual-arm-front-end-001.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-dual-arm-front-end-002.jpg  

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Old 01-11-2009, 10:22 PM   #483
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Dual A-arm, Ruggedized lower arm

I made some more progress on the ruggedized lower arm. I have the suspension mostly mounted to the car. The two long front screws go into the normal front screw holes on a narrow pan car chassis and bring the front wheel width out to 220 mm for wide pan use.
That Hour Glass shaped standoff is a CRC part that I modified. I mounted it on a screw in the screw gun and rotated it. I used a large cutoff wheel in the Dremel and dremmeled off the thin top on the center of the end and worked my way inward until a washer thin piece of aluminum fell off. I did this to narrow and shorten the part. (this is like using a mini lathe). Then I drilled and tapped it 4-40 TPI a short distance to complete the thread all the way through. The mushroom top gives the top plate nice support so that it only needs two screws to support it.
There are an additional two .110 inch holes to be drilled and then countersunk for the rear two supports.
At the moment I have RC18T rear shocks and shafts installed. I need to get farther along to see whether these or the shorter front shocks are needed. I am happy with the clearances. It should work well. I have to work the pivots a little bit to free them up.

Note I am using shortened springs. This shortened spring calculates out to about 45 lb/in stiffness.

This CRC Pantoura Chassis has been through a large number of experiments. It is holding up extremely well. I did split one full length in a 60mph crash during a speed run. It went out of radio range with a spektrum (advertised 3000 ft range) actual about 380 ft at ground level.

OVAL track Session
I had a short track session on the oval. I had medium traction with some dust. Pink rears were just a bit faster than the CRC spec rears, which in turn were slightly faster than XXPink/purple rears. I expect the opposite with more traction available. The car is doing 31 mph measured by RADAR on the short straight.

John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-dual-arm-front-end-005.jpg  

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Old 01-12-2009, 04:41 AM   #484
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Looking nice!! Incredible how you managed to get the shocks in between the suspension arms.
I hope it runs well (then mine will prolly run good too ).
If only the outdoor season started I could try my car, but everyone thats seen it just cant believe that the rear works soooo fine.
I had a 1/12th in the design phase a few months ago that is also working with a panhard bar, its just the vertical damping I have a problem with, I cant seem to find a solution I'm happy with.
I'll post a picture when I'm at my home-PC, maybe someone here has a good idea.
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Old 01-12-2009, 12:31 PM   #485
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And here's the 1/12th project, again with panhard bar.
As you can see, I'm using the CRC side springs for the spring action!!
I tried it at home and they seem to be doing a very good job.

But, damping is a problem, I can use tubes as sidedampers but I cant seem to find a solution for the up/down damping that I like.
But give me time and I'll figure something out. If anyone has a great idea, please enlighten me
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-q12.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-q12-rear2.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-q12-rear.jpg  
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Old 01-12-2009, 01:15 PM   #486
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Quante- Thanks for the kudos and the posts. Here is a thought. I guess what you want is something very low, very light maybe with no damper. (I guess I misread your post. I'll leave this here anyway it is more or less aimed at springing the pod)Since the 3 link and Panhard bar completely control the pod motion to bump and roll your side springs are going to control bump as well. Maybe you have not put the top link on yet to give it a try. I would prefer two bump springs so that you control bump and roll at the same time and control bump more directly than a center mounted bump spring. Your side springs may be too light to do the job or maybe not. If so the following.

Take a look a the suspension on desert race trucks in the back and think leaf spring, but with a multilink axle control. Now days the springs are mounted with the thick multileaf (normaly the center part) clamped solid to the truck. The slender part of the leaf stack is touching but not controlling axle movement. There is a slip type of joint at the axle, but solid to the truck in front of the axle.

This is what our t-plates are. Single leaf rear spring. Think along the lines of two narrow leaf springs on the sides clamped solid to the chassis with two bolts forward then an extension and then they have a free end to control bump at the back, where your side springs are. The free ends touch a teflon pad with a ball on the end of the leaf spring, the teflon pad forward on the pod bottom plate. The less friction here the better. The ball slips left and right a little as well as forward and back on the pod as the pod moves. A rolling ball like a ball point pen would be even better. Some friction here may act as damping, though.

Use two RC18T front shocks vertically right where your side springs are. No need for 3 dampers. Use the coil over spring instead of the side springs.

John

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Old 01-12-2009, 04:42 PM   #487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quante View Post
And here's the 1/12th project, again with panhard bar.
As you can see, I'm using the CRC side springs for the spring action!!
I tried it at home and they seem to be doing a very good job.

But, damping is a problem, I can use tubes as sidedampers but I cant seem to find a solution for the up/down damping that I like.
But give me time and I'll figure something out. If anyone has a great idea, please enlighten me
How about Tamiya Mini shocks? They are shorter than touring car and 1/12 scale shocks. Just a thought. I think the standard dampening in the Tamiya mini kit is a friction dampener. You might see if you can find Tamiya mini build instructions on line somewhere.
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Old 01-12-2009, 08:46 PM   #488
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I have been using the "Front End Riser Plate" (Part #72 in the instructions) for all of my Gen-X 10 setups until recently. Because I am running smaller front tires, I decided to eliminate these 2.5mm high plates from my car. Funny that I have not seen any posts about others doing the same.

Only reason I see to leave them in would be to run really large front tires.
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Old 01-12-2009, 10:17 PM   #489
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Still Bill-I don't see that that #72 riser plate is an essential part. I would treat it just like the spacers in this link.
That spacer will add some stiffness to the car as it is a broad plate compared to replacing it with a similar thickness of plastic spacer. More stiffness is required for carpet.


http://teamcrc.com/crc/modules.php?n...prodID=7718956

remove these at will to change the ride height at the front. Get the set if the kit did not come with the whole set. Bigger tires require addition of more spacers.

John

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Old 01-12-2009, 10:41 PM   #490
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Originally Posted by John Stranahan View Post
Still Bill-I don't see that that #72 riser plate is an essential part. I would treat it just like the spacers in this link.
That spacer will add some stiffness to the car as it is a broad plate compared to replacing it with a similar thickness of plastic spacer. More stiffness is required for carpet.


http://teamcrc.com/crc/modules.php?n...prodID=7718956

remove these at will to change the ride height at the front. Get the set if the kit did not come with the whole set. Bigger tires require addition of more spacers.

John
John,

Understood.

Funny that I cannot find those riser plates in the CRC graphite parts listings.

Ah ha! Part number 1740 must include them...

Bill
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Old 01-14-2009, 10:26 PM   #491
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In the Green corner A Superior Spectre
Offset Pod
No rear steer
inch left rear positive offset
Customized CRC suspension (very short arm)
XXPink/Purple rears
Purple right front Pink left front.
Rear pivot ball T-plate, see photo 4



In the Red Corner a Woods Racing X15
Non Offset Pod
Dominant Setup Points
10 mm right front positive offset (this is equivalent to 1.1 degrees left rear steer)
1/8 left rear positive offset
Associated Front Suspension
XXPink/Purple rears.
Purple right front Pink left front.
Rear pivot ball T-plate, see photo 4


I took the Red car out of retirement for this test. Basically I want to see the advantage of an offset pod at my track or lack thereof. I like this Woods Racing car a lot. It has two settings for the right front, square and offset right. I favor a little left rear steer starting with 13.5/4cell; right front offset of about 1/4 inch adds 1 degree of left rear steer. I have to tell you that I investigated this rear steer starting long ago in the Pantoura thread and it was more than a year before someone told me they used any on asphalt. We did have three guys from our club go to the Carpet Nationals last year. No rear steer was used in 13.5/4cell, but then only right rear steer is currently available. Finally two guys from Florida reported they use right rear steer exclusively, can find no reason to ever use left rear steer, but then they run 4 cell with stock motors. An equal number, 2, reported some use of left rear steer to straighten corner exit, one called it right rear toe in (solid axle large scale). With stock motors freeing up the rear probably means everything. So I am going to now recommend that on asphalt you might try some left rear steer, to cure corner exit problems, once you get to the 13.5/4 cell class. It is even handier with 13.5/ LiPo on my track. If you run stock 4-cell, you may find no use for it or even may add some right rear steer on high traction conditions to free up the rear.

I used two timing devices today. One is the radios interval timer which beeped every 4.5 seconds and the Spektrum timer on the Superior Spectre Offset Pod car. Traction was medium. I Drove the Red car, the Woods Racing Car with non offset pod and Right front positive offset/(left rear steer). It drove extremely well. I thougt I was maybe .1-.2 seconds off my 4.5 seconds for a 4.6-4.7s lap. Every lap was easy, no drama, extremely good corner entry (not too much grip) and exit I did need to add about 8 clicks of dual rate 24% or so to bring the steering up at first. I would not need to adjust the car at all in order to race.

Now the superior Spectre car offset pod car. I was not getting the spanking of the other car I desired. In fact I was running 5.2 s. I had too much front grip. I made changes to the left front in stages. I took off the 5 degree caster block, only slight improvement. I lowered the upper inner A-arm pivot by one spacer (CRC), only slight improvement but I had some 5.0’s now. I took out the long arm graphite plate and installed a short top arm. I was notw running some 4.8’s. This is close to the other car. I still had too much steering. I may take off the custom parts and run a straight CRC front suspension on this car. I have one built up. Now I have to comment that the car is not deliciously easy to drive. The corner exit is a bit squirrely. The car rarely ends up pointed exactly where I intended on corner exit. It will with less throttle. Combine this with steering that was not quite right, I am not getting benefit of the offset pod. It may just need some right front positive offset/(left rear steer), but it is not available on this chassis. Happily I have 3 of those wood chassis. Interestingly a couple of them have only two holes on the right front and put the front wheel in the positive offset position with no choice available. More to come on this pair.

Polite comments/suggestions welcome.

John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-green-vs-red-superior-spectre-vs-woods-x15.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-superior-specter-electronic-install-005-compressed.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-woods-racing-x15-electronics-install.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-superior-spectre-chassis-t-plate.jpg  

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Old 01-14-2009, 10:37 PM   #492
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There is a new post above as well.

CRC Gen X 10 Coming, Road, narrow pan car

Things on the horizon.
I have a CRC Gen X 10 coming. I plan to test it on our new asphalt when it gets completed. I will use a couple of motors with it, but will probably start with a 10.5 as the straight will be 270 feet long. I will use only a front full width diffuser to prevent blowovers. This proved very succesful on my Woods Racing High Speed car which reached 57 mph on the present layout. After a while I will test it with a CRC widening kit with a Peugeot 905 B GTP body.
I plan to have a convertible rear end for the car. It will be a three link but it will use some Darkforce parts to streamline the customization. Quante and David, take a look at these parts for your 1/12 scale projects. Think vertical shocks right in front of the rear tires down to a tab on the bottom plate.

Item Name: Rear Shock Tower, Item Number: 128 Quantity: 1, Total: $10.50 USD


Item Name: Aluminum Shock Tower Base, Item Number: 131, Quantity: 1, Total: $16.50 USD


Item Name: Black Carbon Rear Shock Tower, Item Number: 178, 1, Quantity: 1, Total: $7.00 USD


Item Name: Black Carbon Body Post Crossbrace, Item Number: 177, Quantity: 1, Total: $7.00 USD

Note the Aluminum part is now made of Delrin.

Some interesting Integy, RPM, Rigid, Some from 20 pages of Integy stuff at Tower.

Red Aluminum Camber Gauge from Eagle Racing
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXTYA0&P=7
guys my age can't begin to see the black lines on the black RPM guage.
Here is a blue Duratrax guage that I ordered. I have to have the red aluminum, but it is out of stock.
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXGCC2

blue Battery tape, also orange and black cheaper.
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXSBE5&P=7

integy tips mounted on Hex
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXUHD7&P=7

Rigid Rechargeable Drill/Driver
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...ctId=100618256
I got this very nice tool for Christmass for $100. I have wanted a compact drill to drill holes. Turns out it is very handy for most of the RC screws. I got the three tips so that you don't have to work the chuck so far going from #2 phillips on our front end to the smaller 4-40 screws. Today I left my .050 driver at home and used it on those tiny screws of the CRC front end. No strippage. The benefit is low speed with good control and an electric brake to stop the tool instantly when tight or near tight. Then use it by hand because it is still braked. I personally do not like the slop of magnet only quick change hex drive tools and stay away from them where possible. You waste more time pulling the tip off of every screw than you save with the quick change. On my guns I have a nice set of Brownells hex tips but I secure them with a collet chuck driver from Brownells. In other words I like the wobble free holding of a chuck. It helps stab the hole better and keeps you from walking out of it. Now if I can get it to make that impact wrench noise.

John

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Old 01-16-2009, 04:41 PM   #493
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Wide Pan Car Dual A-arm Front End
Most of you probably know that this is pretty much the standard type of front suspension on full size race cars. It has good camber control; it has low scrub (it does not rub the tire sideways across the track as the suspension moves). It is reasonably lightweight.

I can finally say I am finished with the progress of this suspension. I have made about 5 different front suspensions. The ones that worked the best had the shock end very close to the wheel. I tried one with a C hub typically found on TC, it was not as good. Never quite got it hooked up as well. All the others with the shock close to the wheel hooked up better. This one has the shock very close to the wheel. There is no C-hub to interfere with its action. either by friction or rattle. There is one custom cut top plate and two identical bottom plates to extend the lower arm. These pivot on our standard T-bar pivot balls. Kudos go to Quante for this part of the design. This suspension is far superior to my previous ones in that it has a very rugged lower arm. This sets the caster adjustment in stone. My previous suspension were a bit lacking here. A bump might not break the lower arms but it would bend them back a little and I would lose some steering. I think this suspension is actually ready for a manufacturer. Europe would be the market as well as wide pans in the US.
Those CRC red aluminum parts make it look really super nice to my eye. You might not be able to tell that it is just a homemade suspension.

I gave it a good test on the oval today. It was really ripping around the track with the CRC spec tires. Times were about .3 faster than my fastest oval cars. I ran it in both directions. Steering was super precise compared to the associated style strut front suspension.
The new shock position and stiff lower arms worked very well. There was plenty of travel to the suspension.
John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-wide-pan-dual-arm-front-end-resized.jpg  

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Old 01-16-2009, 04:56 PM   #494
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There is new post above

Offset Pod on the Oval
At the end of last test I had the Superior offset pod oval car almost as fast as the Woods Racing non offset pod car. I had three remaining problems with the offset pod car.

It was too grippy on corner entry. I already had green front springs on.

What I did here was increase the caster on the right front to 4 degrees. This will dull corner entry and give more midcorner steering. I also examined the other car for distinct differences as it was extremely well behaved. I notice the rear shocks were like syrup. If I rotated the rear pod in the air the pod would somewhat slowly return to normal compared to my road cars. I thought this might help calm the car down and it did. I ended up with 80 weight oil in my RC18T shocks to match the unknow viscosity in the other car.

The car was squirrely on corner exit. It was hard to stay on the race line when adding power. In either direction.

The increased rear side shock viscosity and increased caster eliminated these two problems. I also raised the rear up 1.5 mm with axle spacers as I notice new wear on the very right tip of the chassis. This probably helped.

I still had some corner exit wiggle to the inside board. I just drove a little more conservatively.

My 20 lap average was now equal to the other cars best lap so I made progress. I think I really would like some right front offset on the car although none is available. A little homemade plate should fix that. Maybe another report on Sunday. Traction was medium again.


I made a little graphite adaptor plate to offset the right front by .375 inch, the same as the Woods car. It was easy to make. This should cure the last little drivability problem which is a wiggle on corner exit that restricts how much throttle you can apply. Here is a pic with the mod in place.
I used long ball cups and Stainless steel tie rods from CRC. These tie rods are inexpensive have a good appearance and do not bulge at the wrench flats and create a clearance problem with the lower A-arm. The CRC tie rods also fit the standard associated flat turnbukle wrench.
John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-superior-spectre-right-front-offset-mod-005.jpg  

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Old 01-17-2009, 01:21 PM   #495
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New 3-link shock arrangement
Quante, David, all- this is the shock arrangement I was talking about for the next version of the 3-link. It might work on 1/12 scale. It is very compact and uses many available parts. The shock tower is from Darkside Motorsports, www.darksidems.com the lower shock mount is an Associated Team servo mount for a flat servo install. I will have this back end installed on a GenX10 car as a convertible back end soon. It requires the Associated RC18T front shocks in this case. That original equipment gold springs looks like it will work fine. It has about the right tension and length. There are 3 springs to work with I believe.

The servo mounts will run fore and aft on a new lower pod plate which will have a rearward tab on the right side to catch an inboard link. I plan to put the pivot points at the balance point of the pod to reduce pivot stresses and the resulting friction.

John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-new-3-link-rear-shocks-resized.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 01-18-2009 at 03:17 PM.
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