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Old 01-04-2009, 10:18 PM   #466
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Where in ur thread will I find stuff on the gen x 10 for on road carpet racing?
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Old 01-04-2009, 11:14 PM   #467
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I don't have much on the Gen x 10 yet. I did assemble one and have quite a few photos of it. There is Toms winning setup on the CRC 1/10 pan thread not too far back.

Here is a link
http://www.rctech.net/forum/5122088-post525.html
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Old 01-05-2009, 12:37 AM   #468
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Default motor screws

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Originally Posted by lidebt2 View Post
2.5 mm motor screws

The screws are 3mm with a 2.5 hex head
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Old 01-05-2009, 10:03 AM   #469
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Thanks for the post guys. Screw dimensions noted. Rick was reffering to the tool size. They had slipped my mind. Here is a link to Tom Firshing's Cleveland Indoor Champs carpet setup for the Gen X 10. Someone should pop that CRC 1/10 pan thread back up. It is on page 5 now.

http://www.rctech.net/forum/5122088-post525.html

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Old 01-05-2009, 10:12 AM   #470
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New post above

Track Report Superior Spectre, Offset pod on a dusty track.

We had fairly strong winds and a recent off-road event that had really dusted up the parking lots. For this reason we had low traction. We prepped the track but it would soon be covered with dust. You could see tire tracks where you travelled. I made a couple small changes to the car to get it to come out of the corner a little more straight in the dust. Last session I needed only about 9 ounces of left rear down tweak to have excellent corner exit manners; the car was a rocket. This compares to 12 with a non offset pod. I added a couple more ounces this week to the 9. I also added another 1/8 inch left rear offset for a total of 1/4 inch. These are both mild setting still compared to a non offset pod. I hope to compare the offset pod with mild settings to a nonoffset pod car on the clock in the future. We are still on the asphalt. The rear tires wore more evenly this track session. .030 inch Right .024 inch left wear.

The pic shows Ron's wide 1/10 pan with an Associated B4 modified front suspension. It is nearing a track test.
John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-oval-cars-1-5-2009-001.jpg  
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Old 01-05-2009, 10:02 PM   #471
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Hi John,
Redoing my electronic layout and took all the weights I have on my chassis as I had about 12 7gm weights and figured I did not need that much. Well as I have been trying to balance the car out, it just seemed like the side to side or front and back were just not equaling out. At first it seemed I got the side to side and than the back. But than the front was giving me a hell of a time. Now if I remember correctly, I read somewhere if your chassis is warped or bent, you will never get the car tweaked? Now does this apply to balancing? I finally broke down and took the wheels off and put the chassis on my desk and seemed like the front was not completely flat. I have had three bumper replacements and know I have hit hard. Tweak seemed to be ok but balancing no matter where I move the weight it just not happening. I have moved electronics back, forward so the only guess is that the chassis it not letting me get the balance correctly? What is your take on this?

Thanks in advance


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Originally Posted by John Stranahan View Post
Final Electronic Install
One thing you try to do when installing electronics is to get the car balanced left to right and to achieve equal cross cornerweights on road. On the oval we don't do either but do change it in a controlled way. Do you need a set of scales to race a pan car. Well no. There are simple ways to use instead.

First step, Side to Side Balance
left tires on beam on one scale, right tires on beam on one scale. Bounce the car. I did this with the electronics layout in photo 1 and I was even within .3 ounces. This is good enough and about as accurate as you are going to get with a car that has shocks. Alternatively, balance the car on two points centered front and back. The car should be well balanced. Or pick up both ends with two Xacto knife points. The left and right tires should leave the ground as simultaneously as possible. Second pic shows the setup, but on the Battle Axe.

Second Step, Eliminate Tweak
Tweak is when your cross corner weights are not equal there are several ways to correct this. I will start with the simplest. Eliminate play in the front springs. Lift the center front of the car with the X-Acto knife point and see if they lift at the same time or put two pennies one on the top of each tire and foward a bit. When you lift the front the pennies should fall near the same time. If they do not, then adjust a tweak screw which are 4-40 long allen screws in the back on top of the white progressive tweak springs. If tweak gets worse try the other screw. After a few tries you will know which screw to adjust ahead of time. 1/4 turn movements here. Pic of a tweak station tomorrow.

Eliminate Tweak with Cornerweight Scales or Tweak Station
Put the car on corner weight scales or rear tires on a beam and front tires each on a scale. Adjust the tweak screws until the front tires bear even weight. If you use a tweak station instead then adjust until your bubble is level. Now you are finished setting tweak. Don't reverse the car and think you can improve it you just mess up what you have done. You have set the cross corner weights approximately equal.

Corner weights
Lastly if you are not satisfied with approximately equal, set the tweak, fronts equal. Now reverse the car or look at the rear scales. If the weight is in the proper place in the car the rear will be equal as well. You see when you set tweak you are working on the back and the front at the same time.

So what if the weights are not equal but your side to side weights are good, then you move weight back toward the light side or forward away from the heavy side without changing their side to side position. This is setting your crosscorner weights more exactly equal than just setting tweak. You only do this once to the car. From then on setting tweak is sufficient. Now Left front + right rear = right front + left rear. This is what is meant by equal cross corner weights.

Everything was good to within .3 ounces with this setup. One item I am missing is a fan on the LRP speed control.

So what is the goal in all this. A car that accelerates straight without torque steer. A car that corners the same left and right.

Thanks Rick for some of the Photo Props.

The last pic is my Saleen S7R body that fits on a narrow pan car and on the TC5 shown.

Final weight of the CRC Generation X 10, 39.6 ounces with the Saleen Body.

John
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Old 01-05-2009, 10:33 PM   #472
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Expresso-Firstly I assume you are running a wide pan with LiPo and substantial power. It is helpful to know this when giving advice.

For 4 cell 13.5 use you can use almost equal front to back weights as your rear traction is usually sufficient for the power available.

Once you start putting on something like LiPo, 10.5 it is helpfull to run more weight in the back than the front. 6 cell guys tend to like saddle packs so that they can run more battery weight in the back. With a 3.5 and stick pack LiPo on board, I find that as much weight as you can put in the back is helpfull. I tend to run my electronics on this car on the second deck to move them back. Cornering is little affected, forward traction is aided.

Lots of questions in your post.

tweaked (warped) chassis
A chassis that does not lay flat on the table can certainly be adjusted to run well and can be detweaked on the corner weight scales. 1/16 inch is probably tolerable for 1/10 scale. No chassis stays perfectly flat after a few wrecks or even, just sitting. One thing I demand of my chassis though is that they have one resting state. In other words you can twist the chassis by hand and it does not go Creak and assume a new twisted position. This can be a problem with double deck cars. Use blue locktite to fix all the screws in place but not aluminum in aluminum screws. Here only use loctite on the heads.

Let me continue in another post.

John

Last edited by John Stranahan; 01-07-2009 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 01-05-2009, 11:03 PM   #473
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Front to Back weight Split

I put my wide pan front wheels on a beam on a scale, back wheels on a beam on a scale. I have about 7.2 ounce excess on the back. See the photo. I feel the car performs the best with a 3.5 motor with this rear excess weight.

Now I put the car left tires on a beam, right tires on a beam. Left side weight is 20.3 (speed control side) and 19.2 right side. This is close. I do not have a transponder installed. I would put it on the right side near the middle of the car for best side to side balance.

You need to get these side to side weights close. Perfection is not necessary. Within .5 ounces or so is OK. There is some friction in the shocks that will affect especially the corner weights that are next.

I have the front to back balance I want (very heavy in the back). I have the side to side balance I want. Almost even. This does not mean the car is well balanced yet as the left side might have too much weight on the back compared to the right. This is where corner weights help.


Adjusting Corner Weights
I put the car front wheels on a beam each rear wheel on an individual scale.

I adjust my shock collars (you your tweak screws) until the rear scales read even. Both of mine were 11.9 left, 11.5 right. Bounce the car a couple of times. This is close enough. This is the adjustment that will compensate for a slightly warped chassis. Now you can quit here or do one more step at the first build. Turn the car around. If the weight is perfect in the car, the front tires will both weigh the same on the scales. You have adjusted tweak at the front and the back at the same time. If the fronts are not even, you need to move weight forward or back on one side without changing its side to side position. This will give you good corner weights for the road course. Even left and right. On the oval we put a 12 ounce excess on the left rear with this same procedure.

43-45 ounces is a good weight for an open mod wide pan. The weight helps it get down through a layer of dust.

Pic is of my 3-link with Panhard bar rear and dual A-arm independent front wide pan car. We are getting new smooth asphalt and a longer straight at Mikes-HobbyShop.com. I predict speeds about 70 mph will result on the straight during normal laps. The car is on beams checking front to rear weight split. More pics of the whole balancing process on a GenX10 Here.

John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-wide-pan-front-back-beam.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 01-05-2009 at 11:41 PM.
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Old 01-07-2009, 05:20 PM   #474
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Track Report oval, Lap timer, left rear offset, left front camber gain

Inside Front on the oval
This tire has quite a bit different duty and requirements on the oval than it does on the road course. On the road course you pretty much forget about it. Most of the action is on the outside front. We adjust both fronts about the same for outside duty.
On the oval that inside front is not really helped much by caster induced negative camber gain; I have been setting the left or inside front to 0 caster to eliminate that. In other words the left front is not helped if the camber becomes negative with steering throw. It would be better to do the opposite.

I tried one of Barry's tricks on the left front. See the photo. I have a red aluminum CRC 5 degree reactive caster block installed. Normally this would remove 1 degree of caster as the tire goes up into bump. I am not going to say exactly what it does because the tire is going down into droop and not up into bump, but the effect was that corner entry steering was improved. This was also helped by running the upper A-arm long with the optional CRC graphite piece, the long arm option, and the inner hinge pin high with a CRC roll center kit. These last two adjustment reduced negative camber gain to about 0 over the distance the car can roll. I needed to reduce dual rate by 6 clicks or 21%. This shows how much the steering changed in similar conditions. Front tires were GRP purple RF and RC4less pink LF
Now I have to say that when I drove Barrys 4 cell/13.5 car with this setup, I thought it was too planted as did Mike D. With 13.5/LiPo, I feel it is the way to go. There is less steering throw required and thus less scrub. The car is not too planted. I will leave this set of adjustments for a while.
If you enter the corner off power there is now too much steering. The solution of course is you need to enter on power and keep that power and corner speed up. Certainly no drag brake is needed on entry.

I noticed that now I could get the rear end to wiggle out (drift out) a bit on occasion if I steered too strongly early and mid corner. This means that my car is in good oversteer understeer balance and is cornering about as fast as possible. I am using an offset pod rear and two 1/8 inch motor spacers to move the motor left some more. This tightens the car. The steering mods above increased the steering traction to match the rear grip.

Lap timer, Left Rear Offset

Conditions were much like my previous session, high wind, dust, but toward sundown the winds calmed the car cleaned the race line and lap times were very good. The Spektrum Lap timer worked well on this 13.5/LiPo powered car.

I ran a set of laps with only 1/8 inch left rear offset. I was expecting better conditions today. I noticed some corner exit wiggle to the inside but the car was in good control' I just steered the car out of it. I changed from a BSR XXPINK/Purple rear to a CRC World GT spec Rear. This improved the forward traction through the dust. I got about 50 lap times.

I added another 1/8th inch spacer to the inside of the left rear hub. This helped straighten the car on corner exit. I got 50 more lap times. The best laps were .1 s better. This is from improved corner exit manners allowing more throttle.

John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-inside-front-oval.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 01-08-2009 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 01-08-2009, 01:23 PM   #475
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More on the inside front

The adjustments I made to the inside front in the post above can be made with other types of front ends. We want a long upper arm with 5 degrees of reactive caster. One common front end is the IRS Aluminum caster block that came recently on the RC10L4O. The upper inner set of holes would be selected to make the inner hinge pin high and the upper a-arm long. It may be possible to tilt the pin to get the 5 degree reactive caster.

A question I had was what exactly is going on with this adjustment to increase steering traction early and mid corner. I put the car on the setup board at eye level with good light. First I examined the outside wheel on which I have more normal adjustments. The setup here is No reactive caster, 2 degree caster. Here is what happens. As you turn the wheel left (with the radio like on the oval turn) the top of the wheel tilts inward. This is negative camber gain and is a desired effect of the caster to compensate for chassis roll and tread flex. When you turn the wheel outward, the top of the wheel tilts out. There is positive camber gain. You would think this would be the desired effect for the inside wheel.

Now the left front, the inside front. The setup is a 5 degree reactive caster block and 0 degree caster. Turning the wheel right with the radio results in a very slight negative camber gain. (This is the direction opposite of the way it runs on the oval). Turning the wheel left (like on the oval) results in almost 0 camber gain. The tread stays very flat. This must be responsible for the improved early and mid corner steering. Normal amounts of caster must change the camber too much in the positive direction, even though it seems like it is in the correct direction.

Anyway give this a try if you need more steering traction with an offset pod.

John
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Old 01-09-2009, 11:57 AM   #476
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Soon to be released Associated Oval RC10L5O

G-Honeys car from Roseville

Notice T-plate, dual rear side shocks unlike the road car, New road car front end. New rear pod plates and ladder bar stiffener. Offset pod. LiPo capable. Angled servo and Associated 4562 servo mount. This mount is the best ever with 4 hold down screws. Maybe it will become available again. Long Steering Arm tie rod all the way accross the chassis.

Picture Viewer
I notice we have a new stored picture viewer. It will dispay this type of stored pic with a black background and a complete photo name now. You can also double click on the pic and it will expand the photo to full screen to get a larger image.

John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-rc10l-5o.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 01-09-2009 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 01-09-2009, 06:05 PM   #477
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Thanks John for all the info as always. I have been busy at the office pretty much all week and have not gotten back to balancing the car until today. Today being Friday I had to make some time at the office to get the car ready for the track tomorrow and wouldn't you know it I got it balanced right on the money as I did the first time around. Now I did loosen up the center shock all the way when I checked the chassis. I remembered a veteran rc guy at the track some weeks ago told me the center shock was too tight. So when I got the car all back together to balance, I made sure the spring was not too tight. Car balance side to side, front and back and tweak is right on the money. Well I guess now to get ready for track tomorrow morning. Oh and by the way I will hit the big nitro track this weekend since they just finished redoing the track so eager to see the new layout. Will be running 235mm wide pan for testing and bashing. Hopefully I can get the car dialed finally. I did loose all the weights and did not have to use any to balance car since I moved the electronics around. I was hoping to get more video but my brother has my tripod. Will try to place the camera somewhere and see if I can get video for the board.
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Old 01-09-2009, 06:54 PM   #478
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Actually just found a thread in the nitro section with a couple of videos and pictures of the new lay out at Crystal Park looks like fun.

http://www.rctech.net/forum/5219035-post1.html
http://www.rctech.net/forum/5220154-post7.html
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Old 01-10-2009, 02:11 AM   #479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Stranahan View Post
Soon to be released Associated Oval RC10L5O

G-Honeys car from Roseville

Notice T-plate, dual rear side shocks unlike the road car, New road car front end. New rear pod plates and ladder bar stiffener. Offset pod. LiPo capable. Angled servo and Associated 4562 servo mount. This mount is the best ever with 4 hold down screws. Maybe it will become available again. Long Steering Arm tie rod all the way accross the chassis.

Picture Viewer
I notice we have a new stored picture viewer. It will dispay this type of stored pic with a black background and a complete photo name now. You can also double click on the pic and it will expand the photo to full screen to get a larger image.

John
Strange......
The Tbar look like an RC10L2 Tbar,
The rearpod looks like a Xray 1:12th rear pod, completely different from the current 12th scale and worlds GT rear pod,
The center shock looks like a yokomo touring shock....

I also noticed that the car has 6 (!) body posts!
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Old 01-10-2009, 04:55 PM   #480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Stranahan View Post
(The Orion pack is a dog, but it is a dog with good manners. It has safe chemistry at the expense of some voltage, and excellent cycle life. This is the reason it was chosen for our spec pack.)
Which size ORION is your spec pack?

We are starting a new class locally: 1/10 pan car, ORION 2400 lipo, NOVAK 17.5, spec world GT tires and HPI GT bodies. Based on your comments, the battery should have a good life? Voltage won't matter since we are all running the same battery. Most of the field is CRC Gen10X with a few BMI and AE RC10R5.

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