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Old 11-18-2008, 08:48 PM   #376
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Woods Test Mule Road Car, Asociated front End Prep

Unfortunately anytime you want the best performance from your Associated front end, you are going to have to put 2 hours into it polishing stuff and making parts move freely. That is just a given. Do it while you watch dancing with the stars. It takes the whole show. It also helps to have long kingpins and Wolfe Springs.

Here is a link that describes what you need to do. Do only as much of it as needed to provide smooth movement. Remove the spring. Push the bottom of the pin up. It should return by gravity.

http://www.swiftracingproducts.com/Page.cfm?InfoID=5192

Here is an I.R.S tool that really helps.

http://rc4less.com/Front_Springs_&_F...duct_info.html


I do three things with the tool. which will be described below. As I have posted this procedure for the CRC front end earlier in the thread consider this an Autopsy of the Front end on this Woods car.

Update to L3 parts
The front end was the Previous latest model associated that would be RC12L3 not the R5 or coming L5. It had Associated Reactive Caster blocks. In spite of this it had the old L shaped hinge pins. Get a new set of the straight pins and they will more likely to be straight. This front end had no setscrews holding the pin. On one side it looked like there were traces of superglue to hold the pin in. It had seeped into the inner pivot areas and made movement stiff. Anyway, no superglue, get some #5-40 set screws and use two in each caster block to secure a straight pin.

Upper A-arms
One side had three caster shims forced into place instead of two. This had made the pivot tight. The arm would not drop by gravity. I needed to do some X-acto Knife work on the caster blocks and arms and make it so they drop by gravity on both sides.

Pivot Balls
The pivot balls were tight in their sockets. With new parts you can stretch the socket with the pivot ball tool by forcing it past the center when installing it. Even forcing it out the small side of the hole. This enlarges the socket and smooths the outside of the ball. On this car this was not sufficient due to age. The sockets kept shrinking back to grip the balls. I used the tool like in the photo to rotate the ball by hand while sanding it with a small strip of 1500 grit paper. I even chucked the threads in the Dremmel on a stubborn ball to speed things up.

Kingpins
The hinge pins were scarred up and would not slide smoothly in the balls. I replaced them with a different set and polished them until they would slide smoothly through the existing balls. Alternatively buy some new Aluminum Teflon coated pivot balls, but they are expensive. You may still have to polish the pin.

Springs
I put on green springs on both sides. I have found previously that a weak spring will bottom at high speed when you slam the car into the sweeper under high downforce at 50 mph. You lose most of the steering when this spring bottoms or if the chassis drags.

Roll center
One side of the car, the left side, had a roll center modification. About .030 inch was removed from the top of the steering block axle assembly. This lowers the roll center on a road car. Because an oval car has a positive camber on the left side it does not lower the oval cars roll center much. I have used this modification on a road car before, to good effect, so I matched the mod and performed it on the right side.
On this associated suspension camber angle/king pin angle affects the roll center. The more negative the camber (the more negative the kingpin) angle, the lower the roll center. I call this a little defect, that is not widely known.

Caster
I set caster to 4 degrees which I like on a road car.

Tweak
On the oval we add tweak. On a road car we remove tweak. We want the left side tires to carry the same load as the right side tires. I lifted the center front of the car with an X-acto knife point. I watched the tires lift off the elevated setup board. I adjusted both side shock collars to make the front tires lift evenly. On a Gen X10 you adjust those little allen tweak screws that bear on the side springs. Normally you select the wrong one. Just use the other one if your problem gets worse. The springs need only a little preload to keep them seated well.

Or
Use the penny test if visibility is poor. Put two pennys one on each front wheel. Make adjustments so that when you lift the front in the center the pennys roll off at the same time. Use new or trued front tires if possible. Rotate fronts every two heats. Do not rotate before the main.

you can also do this on corner weight scales. Procedure in my TC5 thread.


Yes you should check all of this on your new Gen X 10 or Battle Axe also.

John
pic pivot ball tool
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-hyperdrive-pivot-ball-press.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 11-27-2008 at 11:55 PM.
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:29 PM   #377
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200 mm Road Car, Test Mule

What a delightful car this turned out to be, but it took a very long session to bring it about. I got good excercise climbing the stairs into the drivers stand numerous times. Here is the story of the track tuning session with tips on how to avoid such a long one. There is also news on the two test devices on board.

Ride Height (No inerter)
On the first few tries the car dragged the ground front and back. You could hear this. You could see the resulting scratches underneath. I ended up with a 15 lb center spring, 35 weight center shock oil. This is similar to what I have used before on our bumpy straight. I ended up with a short set of front tires in the proper compound, so I needed to modify the front lower A-arms to gain sufficient ride height. Ride Height was at 2 mm with the short tires and the A-arms all the way down. I removed .060 inch or so from the bottom of the A-arm. Note that IRS sells a set of shortened A-arms for just this purpose.

Front Spring
The green spring was insufficient on the sweeper. The outside edge of the chassis was rubbing. This was killing my steering. I went one up to 7# purple and brought the steering back. Yes this is backwards tuning, but note the reason. I did not have 8# blacks at the track or would have fit those.

Front Tires
I ran spec tires full size at first and had too much low speed steering. I switched to an almost worn out set of purple fronts and they were perfect. Note that the spec fronts are perfect on my wide pan or might be perfect with less motor on this narrow pan.

Rear Wing
I had a little oversteer still on the very high speed turns. I increased the wing to my Favorite JConcepts 0110 and the car drifted in a neutral attitude around these turns. Perfect.

Rear Ride Height
I kept increasing this until I got good performance on the straight. I am using the 2.0 spacers placed to raise the chassis. Rear ride height is about 10 mm now. No problems in the corners with this. Full size rear tire. I was getting excellent speed on the straight. Directional stability was good. No big side dams needed.

Blowovers, Front Diffuser
I kept increasing my speed on the straight by rolling on throttle quicker and keeping throttle on longer before the sweeper. Only one time, when I held throttle way too long for a good tight sweeper turn did the car blow over. I would gauge my diffuser a great success because previously I might have had 4-5 blowovers just driving the track normally. Give this a try if you have put a powerful motor in your narrow or wide pan.

Low Roll Center Mod
The steering felt great with the low roll center mod.

Mechanical Problems
I tapped a side board. This stripped the plastic nut and the car shed the wheel and bearing. I lost one bearing. The car has 5-40 spindle ends. Use a steel nylock nut here to prevent this. Associated makes one for some of their diffs. ASC 6629

The T-plate came loose
The car was equipped with a strange small size flanged 4-40 mut. I had no driver for it. They are not locknuts and need to be really tight. The car wandered back and forth aimlessly with the front t-plate screw missing. I replaced this and it was only better as the rear t-plate screws were loose. Great once these were all replaced.

The Servo came loose
I know better than to use only two screws on the servo, but my new purple hardware had not come in yet. I added two more screws. I did use locktite on the servo saver screw and it did just fine.

Finally I had a good driving car, Inerter Report
I drove about 15 laps, then I installed the inerter link. Jeff and I had pushed the rear suspension of this car and its twin down on the bench. We both decided ahead of time that the inerter suspension movement was too slow. In fact it was. On the track the rear suspension was very stiff. Speed on the straight was reduced as the car bounced more. Corner exit speed ,though, was dramatically higher as the antisquat was aided with the stiff rear end from the inerter. The center shock design actually kills most of the antisquat effect. I need to reduce the gear ratio by a factor of 10 or so. I have some ideas. The car is pretty great without it though, now that it has a full width diffuser.

This is probably the best body I have run on a narrow pan on-road. I have tried the Lola and a supercar body previously. That big rear wing is perfect yet again. Chevy Monte Carlo HD

John

Last edited by John Stranahan; 11-23-2008 at 11:30 PM.
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Old 11-20-2008, 04:04 PM   #378
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well did she run good are do you got to tune on her some more...
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Old 11-20-2008, 04:10 PM   #379
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JGL racing-we posted together here is a report

Woods Racing, Protoform Monte Carlo (oval) body, CRC spec tires, Front Diffuser, J Concepts wing, set electric speed record while doing normal Laps

The Woods Racing Test Mule was running good yesterday, but I did have one blowover and had worn out front tires. I needed to make some changes. I put on full size new tires as a World GT driver is apt to do. The tire truers can cost more than the cars. I reset the front ride height but missed high by a couple of mm high. I put on the black springs I had at home on the front to stiffen the car for the sweeper turn. The chassis was dragging in the sweeper.

The front ride height change was a critical one. The car blew over. I fixed the ride height. Took off the black springs. I had purples mounted, one grade softer. The car looked good again. It was really fast on the straight. Jeff came out to talk and noticed I had the rear of the body still on this body but not on another body. I agreed that some air is diverted above the chassis now with the front diffuser. The motor runs cooler on top is the evidence. I handed him the scissors. See photo two. The car was still glued down on the straight. Jeff wandered out there to the end of the straight with a customer. I did not know it but he had taken his radar gun with him. He Clocked several 55 mph passes. With traction like today, the 1/8 scale open mod cars run about this speed. The 1/10 scale Nitros run about 53 mph. These are not record attempts but speeds during normal laps.

That was the electric record so far at Mikes-HobbyShop.com. The small gain can be attributed to better forward traction from the slightly harder than pink CRC spec rear tires. Lack of blowovers and good downforce created by the front diffuser. A narrow streamlined good downforce body from Protoform. I was thrilled.

We decided that an easy way to modify the inerter is to first try lightening the arm by removing windings.

Electrics
LRP TC edition speed control
Novak 3.5 R geared 90/12
FMA Direct Revolution 2s2p LiPo 5000 mA-h

pic-I faired the diffuser up to the hood with cardstock. The radical rear cutout created a reactive rear wing that sagged at the highest speeds. That was OK.

John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-test-mule-speed-record-trim-001.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-test-mule-speed-record-trim-002.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 11-23-2008 at 11:26 PM.
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Old 11-22-2008, 09:45 PM   #380
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ok you take a on-road chassis and use it for oval racing and use a on-road wing for the oval car..

than you took a oval chassis and use it for on-road racing with an oval body


that is strange well um very strange...

but than you said you watch dancing with the stars..........ok i just threw up!


i cancled my sunday paper and now i just print this thread out and read it on sundays...but now i find i can't wait until sunday ...

you should have your own reality show...

the butcher shop.....

when your done with cars....can you try helicopters and turn them into boats? than take the boat and make it hover...please
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Old 11-23-2008, 07:47 AM   #381
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I did it just for you Katfish. Glad you enjoyed it.
John

Last edited by John Stranahan; 11-23-2008 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 11-23-2008, 04:17 PM   #382
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Inerter
We got a couple short passes in with the inerter equipped pan car. I had removed one set of reduction gears from the servo. This changed its ratio by a factor of 4. The speed of the car was increased by 1 mph to 56 mph. Thats not a lot of increase unless you are the car thats 1 mph slower. I have more testing to do. It sounded good on the straight from improvements to stiffen the front of the body. This kept the from dam off the track better. I had electrical problems which shortened the test. The car reaches top speed mid straight so it is going this bit faster for a long distance. Speed is limited by traction not by gear ratio. No blowovers.

Corner exit forward grip was still very good from the inerter. As good as the previous test and better than without it. When the motor accelerates, the front of the pod lifts. Normally there is little resistance (the spring aids this lift) and so this lifts the rear of the car only. With the inerter in place the front of the pod lifts but has to spin up the inerter while doing so, While it is doing the spinup the inerter lets the pod pull up on the front of the car ;this allows more weight to transfer to the rear giving the better forward bite.

Woods oval car
We had a pretty good size crew to practice on the oval today. The Woods racing car dominated.

John

Last edited by John Stranahan; 11-24-2008 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 11-24-2008, 01:38 PM   #383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOTHER FOCAR View Post
ok you take a on-road chassis and use it for oval racing and use a on-road wing for the oval car..

than you took a oval chassis and use it for on-road racing with an oval body


that is strange well um very strange...

but than you said you watch dancing with the stars..........ok i just threw up!


i cancled my sunday paper and now i just print this thread out and read it on sundays...but now i find i can't wait until sunday ...

you should have your own reality show...

the butcher shop.....

when your done with cars....can you try helicopters and turn them into boats? than take the boat and make it hover...please
How about, "it's effective" - who cares what he's using. . .he's pushing the car beyond what it seems anyone else is doing and going faster and faster with it!

If the oval wing isn't as effective as the on-road wing, then hell, why use the oval one?

Is he breaking some rule? Don't think so. . .so don't be sour grapes. You get your car to beat his and then we'll talk!
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Old 11-26-2008, 01:55 PM   #384
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new ride john what do you think .you got yours and jeffs yet ..
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-001.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-006.jpg  
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Old 11-26-2008, 02:12 PM   #385
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JGLracing View Post
new ride john what do you think .you got yours and jeffs yet ..
Have fun.

That car was my biggest mistake. Glad I got rid of it even at a loss. Bought the IRS Shockwave and couldn't be happier with support or parts. Never got that from CRC.

Rick
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Old 11-26-2008, 03:30 PM   #386
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JGL-nice ride. There was good parts support when I had the car. I ordered plenty of parts. Plenty of setup help right at hand. There is my posted setup earlier in the thread. I am still in the Woods Racing oval car. It is doing quite well on the oval.

I made some mods to the High speed run test mule. Less leverage on the inerter. I narrowed the chassis. I removed the magnet from the motor. It was a flexible rubber type that was just pressed in. Went for a test run today but the track was wet. See you Sunday.

Speaking of Helicopters there is a helicopter part that would work fine in the speed run cars like B4maz is using as well as one I tried myself. It consists of a gyroscope (piezzo crystal type) that maintains heading by directing the tail rotor. Due to low traction at speed run sites this device might be helpful. It would attempt to steer to maintain a heading and would be overidden by steering imput from the radio.

Here is a lightened pic of JGl's new ride.
John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-jgls-battle-axe.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 11-26-2008 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 11-26-2008, 04:02 PM   #387
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did you see what your bud side about the car in the post
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Old 11-26-2008, 04:45 PM   #388
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Yes. Unfortunately its a habit now. Even in a thread titled CRC. Its rude to knock a mans ride after its already purchased.

For pointers on being rude on the Web just take a look at Katfish (M.F.) posts on this thread and at Hobby talk. Insults of your ride, Insults of your track. Insulting screen name. He has reached a zenith. Unfortunately thats all he knows how to do. Hopefully his screename will dissappear in a week or so.

Here is another pic of that battle Axe

john
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-battle-axe-right-hand-view-007-resized.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 11-26-2008 at 05:20 PM.
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Old 11-26-2008, 05:45 PM   #389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Stranahan View Post
Yes. Unfortunately its a habit now. Even in a thread titled CRC. Its rude to knock a mans ride after its already purchased.

For pointers on being rude on the Web just take a look at Katfish (M.F.) posts on this thread and at Hobby talk. Insults of your ride, Insults of your track. Insulting screen name. He has reached a zenith. Unfortunately thats all he knows how to do. Hopefully his screename will dissappear in a week or so.

Here is another pic of that battle Axe

john
Is this directed at me?
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Old 11-26-2008, 06:03 PM   #390
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just the first sentence. Sorry but every post you make here has a dig at CRC now. It gets old. Get over it. Even writing a report on the IRS car you can't help yourself but get two digs in. The next sentence is a general remark for katfish and co.

Last edited by John Stranahan; 11-27-2008 at 12:01 PM.
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