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Old 07-30-2008, 10:29 AM   #226
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V12-Thanks for proofing. I made corrections. The part number is correct. The sizes were not listed on my receipts. I did find a part number for the LRP fan that comes on the TC edition Sphere comp. It is the Brushless Worlds Option Set 82700. This is different than the former worlds edition as it now includes the low profile heat sink that comes on the TC edition Speed Control. I have not ordered it.
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Old 07-31-2008, 12:19 PM   #227
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Here are some pics of the Hyperdrive Products that came in.

Pic one shows the bearing removal and intallation tool in removal mode. I tapped the bearing out by holding the endbell in the palm of my hand. The punch protrudes from the edge a bit. Or use a couple of blocks like in the photo. The tool is made of black oxide coated steel.

The small ring at left slides on the tool and converts it to installation mode. The installation is guided by the nice pilot shown under the endbell in photo two. Use a small hammer. Use a thin coat of high temperature locktite on the outer race of the bearings. Our motors, expecially 3.5's, get very hot in this area.
The replacement bearing part#, I showed above, has sufficient RPM capability to withstand 3.5 use without exploding the cage. This is important. Exploding the cage may stall the motor and fry the electronics. This good yellow rubber seal bearing is not the one in the photo.

The third photo shows the Hyperdrive Tire Truing Arbor. Note that the red #8 x 32 TPI screw that most of us use to install the front suspension is quite a bit smaller than the tools threaded shaft. I was able to hold BSR, Jaco knurl out, and GRP with the knurled part of the knob inwards. The shoulder on which the wheels seat was a very good fit to the wheels. So far it is a highly reccommend on both tools.
John

After use report
The arbor worked well. I used an Aluminum X-acto knife whose handle is 8m to drive the arbor with the 3-jaw chuck of my lathe. The arbor alone ran very true. I trued a couple of Jaco rears. I noticed on both wheels that I could get better radial and axial runnout (tested by eye) with the knurled part of the locking knob in rather than out. Apparently the mild taper and slightly loose fit of the knob on the aluminum threads was forcing the wheel out of true. I turned it around like you would for GRP and wobble was much reduced.
If I were redesigning the tool I would put a cylindrical section on the the threaded pilot near the wheel seats to guide the knurled knob on center and maybe use a ball section instead of a mild taper to touch the wheel. This would act more like the screws we use to hold the wheel on the car. I did sand in a radius to the knurled end of the tool.

Bearing installation went very well and was very fast.
I added this red text later.

John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-hyperdrive-bearing-installation-tool-003.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-hyperdrive-bearing-installation-tool-004.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-hyperdrive-tire-truing-arbor.jpg  

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Old 08-02-2008, 04:21 PM   #228
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Wide Pan tire test
100F air temp, 140 F track temo.

I made a couple of full runs on the wide pan on the full course today. I was very pleased with the traction of the BSR tires. Pink rear, purple front. I was up to very good speed although the track was only very lightly treated with sugar water. 2lbs on a very big course. I did have some spins from lack of practice; by tomorrow these should be eliminated.

The front diffuser on the wide pan worked very well. Directional stability and freedom from spins on the big straight was better than before. There were no incidents. I was at full throttle very early in the straight. Steering on the sweeper was super for these conditions. There was one bump where the car left the ground. The car left very level and returned quickly to ground and to forward traction. I used a 2.250 inch tire. It would have given me more forward traction on the straight if I had left it larger. Making this diffuser from bumper material solved the durability issue I had previously with my lexan front diffuser. That previous model had increased my speed before blowover by 10 mph on some top speed runs in a bumpy parking lot.

That air scoop worked great. The speed control was cool to the touch after a long run. It gets a 50 mph cooling blast of air each lap this way.

Oval tire test
Magenta rears and pink fronts worked superbly during the last race. I had increased the rear wing height up 1/4 inch to hookup those rear magentas midcorner. Since harder was faster, I thought I would try purple rears and magenta fronts for a practice. I used GRP magenta fronts and Jayco purple rears. Suprisingly I had enough forward and rear cornering traction. I was needing a bit more steering traction. I could dial enough in with dual rate, but this might have produced excessive steering throw and scrub. I will probably have to use one pink on the inner front or maybe two pinks. I will need access to the clock to see if the purple rears are actually helping by reducing tire scrub. No clock today.
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Old 08-04-2008, 02:26 PM   #229
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Oval tire test
Magenta rears and pink fronts worked superbly during the last race. I had increased the rear wing height up 1/4 inch to hookup those rear magentas midcorner. Since harder was faster, I thought I would try purple rears and magenta fronts for a practice. I used GRP magenta fronts and Jayco purple rears. Suprisingly I had enough forward and rear cornering traction. I was needing a bit more steering traction. I could dial enough in with dual rate, but this might have produced excessive steering throw and scrub. I will probably have to use one pink on the inner front or maybe two pinks. I will need access to the clock to see if the purple rears are actually helping by reducing tire scrub. No clock today.
Oval tire test continued
100F air temp.
I finished up this tire test. I had purchased Jaco purple rears and had BSR Magenta fronts. I could actually drive this combination OK. I notice a lack of steering. I had to drop throttle all the way to neutral for corner entry. I added a little steering mechanically with the spring preloads but there was little improvement. The car had good corner speed and rolled really well, but I thought it was bit slower due to the need to drop throttle so much. I put on BSR pink fronts and there was an improvement. I could now hold half throttle for corner entry. There were two spins on this pack related to insufficient rear traction. I had almost enough and could drive it fast but I could not drive it quite as hard as with the Magenta rears. So this settles it for me. Magenta rears, pink fronts. I get very good corner speed this way. I'll have that purple in reserve for a high traction condition.

It seems on my car at least that once you are trained to take a fairly wide line through the corners that tire scrub occurs mostly at the back as we try to turn that very wide rubber. You can imagine that it is somewhat difficult for the wide tire to turn on its own axis when touching the pavement. Differential action causes a tiny bit more resistance that is not found at the front. Anyway pink fronts seem to work well for me without much scrub.

I used different brands in this test just because I had them available at the stores I recently shopped.

On my car that right front does not wear very fast. If yours does, you can put a harder right front on without any penalty in performance.

John
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Old 08-05-2008, 03:21 PM   #230
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CRC Gen X 10 235 kit just released.

http://teamcrc.com/crc/modules.php?n...article&sid=81
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Old 08-06-2008, 04:21 PM   #231
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John
do you have a manual for the CRC Pantoura as PDF? Or maybe some one other.
Thanks.
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Old 08-06-2008, 07:19 PM   #232
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There are many detailed photos at the beginning of this thread on the Pantoura. I don't think there ever was a manual. Be glad to answer specific questions on this thread. Only tricky thing is the number and placement of washers on the center football pivot. See the photos. Battery strap just slips under the crossplate knife. There is no rear attachment. Front end is typical associated pan car. I still run two of those chassis, but there have been changes.

Those first pics have over 600 views.

http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?t=127484
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Old 08-08-2008, 02:15 PM   #233
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Default Unusual request but I need help

First off I run a CRC Gen X 1/12th Scale (Road course not Oval) so no flaming for this post....

In order to improve the cost and accessability of racing at our local track, the owner has instituted a Losi Late Model OVAL Class, basically stock out of the box only changes are receiver and foamys instad of the stock rubber.

This is what a late model looks like........ http://www.losi.com/Products/Product...rodID=LOSB0221

I have never run oval in my life so have only limited ideas as to what should be done from a setup perspective to get the most out of the car. So far battery moved to left side, front shocks leaned all the way in, rear shocks upright and preloaded the RF shock with plastic snap clip.

The car oversteers horribly on exit to the point where I can induce a roll if i get on the power to quickly. Probably has something to do with the inch or so of ground clearance on this things too I am tempted to cut the springs F and R but am worried about upsetting the damping and compression due to uneven or unseated springs.

I am clearly lost on oval and setup for it, So I figured I would come to the experts (yes you) and see what ideas you could come up with PLEASE.................

You can probably tell this is a "highly competitive" class, nothing like a bunch of 1/12 scale pan car guys in a stock class.

In terms of setup options I have few:

Shock locations
Shock Oil
Preload clips for shocks (various sizes)
Weight placement on the chassis
Body Height
Camber
Toe

No adjustments for Roll center, caster, ackerman, bump steer, no downstops, up stops so no droop. basically limited, its a challenge
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Old 08-08-2008, 02:44 PM   #234
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Corner exit hooking

From what you describe this exactly the problem that gave everyone problems in our last oval race. We have a few more options that you to cure it but here are some ideas.

Our main cure is to add left down tweak. I do this on my 4 shock car that is similar to yours. The left rear shock collar has to be screwed down to support more of the battery weight. You can do this to the point where the left rear just lifts the right rear enough that the right rear spring goes slack. Once the spring goes slack with body off, there is very little benefit from further adjustment. On thinking about this a lot what this does is gives you torque steer to the right. The reason we hook is the right rear is highly loaded and we are getting torque steer to the left on corner exit; the right rear is pulling harder than the left rear. Left down tweak undoes this a bit.

The second cure is left rear wheel offset. We move the left rear out with spacers. You may be able to move your wheel out a few mm or maybe not. I would have to have the car in my hand. This can be done at the wheel or at the inner A-frame mounts. Maybe they can be shimmed out. I need big clear pictures to see. I'll check your link some more. What this does is gives that left rear a bigger torque arm so we get more right torque steer to undo what is normally happening on corner exit.

thirdly I have the ability to add left rear steer. I add about 2 degrees. Rear steers left car goes right on corner exit. The thought comes to mind that your rear toe in may be adjustable. If so, see if you can add toe in to the right side and take away toe in to the left side this will give you some left rear steer. About 2 degrees or even more is helpful. There may be devious benefits to straight line drag reduction as well. Car runs with left pointy side leading. This was recently banned by Nascar. If the toe is built into the A-arm maybe one side can be run upside down.

Some of our guys don't cure this and then when traction is off a bit, it bites them in the butt.

These cures are only for corner exit. Mid corner is treated differently. Get back to us.

Note that if you have a shock you can add downstops with spacers under the shock body, Droop stops with spacers inside the shock body under the piston, If these are legal. A combination of a droop stop and spring preload collars can give you some preload on the right side. That said I don't really use preload at this time, although some guys like it on the right front. Right front preload may make corner exit hooking worse by reducing droop. What is happening is the fronts are letting go and the right rear torques you into the inside board; now if this is not your problem I will try again.
John

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Old 08-08-2008, 03:20 PM   #235
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Expresso-Thanks for the link. I have seen criticism of this widening kit for the Gen x 10 because of added rotational weight. I don't like this fact either. On the kits behalf, I'll mention a couple of things. The long wide pan hub is not a good fit to a narrow pod car. It requires the use of a spacer and long pinions which we found on the Pantoura thread to not be very easy on the motor bearing. The motor bearing is highly stressed on the 3.5 even with a short pinion.

The hub extenders do not require axle extenders so you save a tiny bit of weight here.

An all new right hand hub (not available to my knowlege) a new left hand hub and a new rear axle would also have widened the rear at a $70 price just for the rear. Maybe the car will be sold as a wide car with these parts if there is sufficient interest in the future.
This is not really my ideal setup though. I like a pod that is a little wider to the right using the standard wide pan right hand hub.

I will also mention that I tried many wide chassis, wide pan cars on outdoor asphalt and always prefered the suppleness of the narrow chassis car extended wide with suitable hubs and adaptors.

Pics: Widening-Adjustable-Adaptors like my little Aluminum models are common now in Carbon Fiber on road and oval cars. Shocks were my earliest cure for blowovers. RC18T shocks are much better. The little extra holes in the bumper bottom allowed mounting a customized KSG swaybar; what a nicely machined piece. It just did not help the blowovers. The thought was to use lighter springs at maximum travel and provide roll stiffness with the sway bar.
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-front-shocks-002.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-front-shocks-bottom-view-resized-004.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-ksg-sway-bar-installed-002-resized.jpg  

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Old 08-08-2008, 03:57 PM   #236
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Default Losi LM

Quote:
Originally Posted by GCracker View Post
First off I run a CRC Gen X 1/12th Scale (Road course not Oval) so no flaming for this post....

I wouldn't flame anyone that owned a CRC product, Right John?? LOL

So far battery moved to left side, front shocks leaned all the way in, rear shocks upright and preloaded the RF shock with plastic snap clip.

There isn't much you can do except use the clips. You will have to experiment with the clips.

The car oversteers horribly on exit to the point where I can induce a roll if i get on the power to quickly. Probably has something to do with the inch or so of ground clearance on this things too

It has nothing to do with ground clearance. If you look and see how much steering play there is, that is causing you your problem. Since you are running "box stock" you can't change to: http://www.thetoyz.com/cart/thetoyz_...6679&cat_name=. this will take "most" of the loose steering out of the car.

I am tempted to cut the springs F and R but am worried about upsetting the damping and compression due to uneven or unseated springs.

Don't cut them. Losi offers a spring set which is new.

I am clearly lost on oval and setup for it, So I figured I would come to the experts (yes you) and see what ideas you could come up with PLEASE.................

You can probably tell this is a "highly competitive" class, nothing like a bunch of 1/12 scale pan car guys in a stock class.

In terms of setup options I have few:

Shock locations This you are going to have to play with on your track
Shock Oil Stay with the Losi oil that is them
Preload clips for shocks (various sizes) Order extras
Weight placement on the chassis There is very little you can do here except move the Batteries to the left. Also try them in the middle forward and back with the piece of foam that came with it.
Body Height There is no way to change the body height because of the cars mounts.
Camber I would suggest left front -1 degree: right Front 1 degree as a starting point.
Toe Same as your 12th scale and work from there.

No adjustments for Roll center, caster, ackerman, bump steer, no downstops, up stops so no droop. basically limited, its a challenge
The LM is basically a MiniT but with a longer chassis. Whatever is available for the T will fit the LM. I know that most of want you didb't want to hear I said. Look at: http://www.thetoyz.com/cart/thetoyz_...ER&action=list for other things to improve the car.

Have fun.
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Old 08-09-2008, 07:37 AM   #237
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Thnx folks

I shall "quietly" inquire as to what hop ups are allowed.........
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Old 08-09-2008, 08:41 AM   #238
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Default IRS Shock Wave

IRS's Shock Wave http://www.teamirsrc.com/shockwave.html

I bought the car from http://www.windtunnelracingproducts.com/index.php)

I've had the car now about a week. Put it together slowly according to the manual. The car is very simple and plain forward directions made it a snap. They have a support board on Hobby Talk (http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=207443)

One of the team members, Jason Jackson, has been the most helpful with answering questions I had about the car in private email. He suggested what additional items to buy, springs, etc.

I will be running the car up at Turn4 (http://turn4rc.samsbiz.com/)a week from tomorrow for it's first outing. This is a banked carpet track 14 degrees with 7 on the straights 183' center line. Jason Jackson runs flat carpet which I will be running here at my home track 360 (http://www.360rcspeedway.com/), has given me his setup sheet for flat carpet.

When you buy a car there is always "hop-ups" to make the car better, with this car there none to buy since they are included with the car. This is another reason I bought the car.

Their owner of the company, Dave Irrgang (http://www.teamirsrc.com/), has been around RC for a long time. Dave and the team drivers will give Shock Wave owner setup sheets for tracks that they have been to with not problem. You can call Dave on the phone with any questions you have about the car. They have ALL the parts in stock. I really like this about the company, SUPPORT!!!.

This is the most adjustable car I've seen. The last photo will show you the front end adjustably of the car.

I will submit a report a week from Monday on how I made out.

Rick
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-p8091047.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-p8091048.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-p8091050.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-p8091051.jpg   CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-p8091053.jpg  

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Old 08-09-2008, 03:13 PM   #239
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air temp 95 F track temp 135

I got in 3 long runs (over 7 minutes each) on the wide pan, 3.5 R Novak, with LRP TC edition speed control 5000 mAh NiMh. Temps were in good control at the motor and speed control. With the little duct the speed control was only 122 F. The motor was about 158 F. Traction was medium or it would have been higher. The last pack measured 140 F and was just a little puffy. This is about the upper limit of usable temperature, but this was after a long run.

How to abuse your LiPo and turn it into a NIMH
I hear sad developments coming as more racers are using LiPo. Charging up to 12 amps is being used to heat the pack before use. I have this to say on the practice. The main way that Lipos deteriorate is from too high a charge rate and over heating. Charging at 2C (10 amps for me) vs charging at 1C (5 amps cuts their useful life in half. I am getting 30- 50 useful cycles before excessive slowing of the car. Cut this in half and you have a sorry NiMH pack. Overheating deteriorates the cell divider material. So if you want crummy life time, packs whose voltage deteriorates quickly with number of cycles, packs that are more prone to short internally (read that fire) then you can adopt some of these dumb practices. They should both simply be banned.

At the IIC in Las Vegas they are going to check pack voltage before the race. Anything higher than 8.44 V will be rejected. This is a good idea to avoid this type of battery abuse. It is not like these cells are bullet proof and never fail. In contrast every failure is on the spectacular side. Best not to test the batteries limits.

6V regulated LiPo
An interesting concept that I read here was the use of LiPo with an electronic voltage regulator at 6 V as a good substiture for NiMH 4 cell. These regulators can be quite tiny these days. That might change the battery war into a consistent voltage that could easily be measured just before the race.

Pic shows why to always charge in a LiPo sock. Even so a failure is expensive and ruins the pack and the sock.
This failure is related to a cell divider failure that caused an internal short. The pack was used in high drain situations which heats the pack. This heat is unavoidable. Some storage was involved. It was charging normally in phase 2 of 3 charger phases, not overcharged, and just exploded. No user error except the lack of a sock was involved.
This was a graciously donated RC10L2O (imagine the shock)that I converted to road use to test that friction disk rear suspension. I liked the suspension a lot. The car lived to see duty again with a few new plastic bits. Thanks again.
John
Attached Thumbnails
CRC Battle Axe, GenXPro 10, 1/10th pan, Brushless, Lipo,4c, Road, Oval,TipsandTricks-max-amps-lipo-fire.jpg  

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Old 08-10-2008, 07:51 PM   #240
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Oval Race Report

This will be the story of John P's car as it was most improved today finishing second. Other results here. John runs the typical Associated type of Pan car. Tires on the rear were Purple/Double Pink split with the purple outside. I was thinking early that this was probably ideal. My rear purples were too hard, My rear Magenta (about equal to a double pink) worked fine. The harder you can run the less scrub in the corners. I suspected something in between Purple and Magenta might be ideal.
Johns car was oversteering quite a bit plus it had the very common corner exit oversteer. The wing was already very high, but could be improved with the wider one. He will probably buy that by next race. We started to increase left down tweak. In heat three I convinced him to change to the .044 inch wire diameter blue spring as he was running out of adjustment on the .039 inch spring. Heat three proved very fast laps for him, the fastest were as good as mine.

Next we worked on gearing using rollout. My preferred rollout is 3.07 inch/revolution. We found the diameter of his tires which measured 2.140 inch. Multiplying by pi (3.14) = 6.7196 inch. This is the circumference.

We divided tire circumference by desired rollout (6.7196/3.07)= 2.188

Thats the spur pinion ratio he needs.

His spur was an 84. Divide that by 2.188 and you get 38 that was the pinion he needed.

Well the car ran very fast laps in the main! Tires! Tires! Tires! Gearing! plus good drivability. He got into the marbles on lap 14 and it took a few laps to get the dirt off. He came in second.

Reminds me of when we tinkered with Josh's car and then he took the lap record qualifying round.

If your are running 13.5 brushless, 4 cell check that gear ratio out.
John

Last edited by John Stranahan; 08-19-2008 at 02:37 PM.
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