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Old 05-09-2008, 08:57 AM   #16
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My apologizes Rob. I made the assumption that people would have something constructive to say. Most everyone has been polite enough to abide by that except you. That's you're own belief that this will kill classes. From my experiences classes die because there is no one to race with. Well, I suppose you can race yourself with time trials.

I have done my homework. I have also determined that sponsorship for a series like this is not the way to go. That portioon of this framework is not up for discussion because I believe we're past that. However, if you are interested in a series like this but are not interested because it lacks sponsorship. Feel free to take it up where I left off and make it your own.

Thanks for your response though. It's interesting how people feel the need to personally defend themselves to complete strangers.
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Old 05-09-2008, 09:02 AM   #17
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It's interesting how people feel the need to personally defend themselves to complete strangers.
My thoughts exactly..............


Truth be told I travel a lot, and thus am able to race all sorts of classes all over the country - and what I see kill racing is not the time trialing, I think bashers already dominate this hobby, it's making racing unaffordable for the common guy. And thus increasing the amount of money a person is going to spend on a given day - without sponsorship support, or the expectation of track-side freebies -isn't going to grow anything.

But the reality of things is that if you're going to suggest something, especially something far-fetched, it's seems pretty illogical and short-sighted to do so expecting everyone to agree with your idea - like it's the best thing since cut bread and never been thought of or tried before - and if you can't keep your mind open to some construtive criticism I apologize.

EDIT: No offense - but ideas are like @#*holes, everybody's got one. But, as I alluded to earlier, racing ain't cheap and proposing ways for people to spend more money isn't going to build racing or classes or keep people in the hobby. This hobby keeps going through peaks and valleys, generally always rolling around to costs of things spiralling out of control and people finding better things to do with their time and hard-earned money. And in today's economy it's my opinion that finding ways to make people spend more money on their hobby is not the way to increase interest, finding ways to make it more affordable is the only thing that will over the long haul.

~ my 2-cents worth anyway


(neat pic from turn-1 at Road Atlanta during the Petite LeMans though)

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Old 05-09-2008, 09:33 AM   #18
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Thanks Rob. That's the kind of input I'm looking for. What is it about the classes that you think are unaffordable? I saw in another one of your posts that you didn't agree with Vintage class. Is that correct?

I based these classes off of vintage and GT classes with the belief that someone could change over a few parts to run in either class. This would be cost saving instead of having to invest into a whole different car.

My vision of the Vintage/GT classes was not to get people to spend more money in a hobby they're already in. I thought of it as an affordable spec class for people new to the hobby. I'm also thinking about retention as well. So, I've also worked out combo packages with local shops for new people interested in racing in one of the classes listed above. So they'll offer a complete package spec'd to one of these classes (vintage/GT) for around $200-$300. It would basically be a RTR kit, but geared directly to a class that is racing in that area.

In order not to alienate existing racers in the area. The GT1 and LMP classes are available. I imagine the GT1 as a mixing pot between new and experienced drivers. The GT3 Porsche Cup would be for true beginners and younger drivers.

At what point do you feel that people would excessively damage their cars? Maybe an enduro race should be considered at 60 mins to minimize wear?
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Old 05-09-2008, 09:56 AM   #19
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We could just get RedBull to sponsor these events, we need those sweet beer helmet thingys with two RedBulls in it, I would be so wired I'd be bouncing off everything!

But it is an interesting concept, I think it would be fun. Strategic, really, drivers would have to drive conservatively and not destroy their cars. I think it would provoke better driving because you lose precious time when you car's in the pits with it's a-arm halfway across the track.

I like it.
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Old 05-09-2008, 10:18 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Boosted561 View Post
Thanks Rob. That's the kind of input I'm looking for. What is it about the classes that you think are unaffordable? I saw in another one of your posts that you didn't agree with Vintage class. Is that correct?
If the so-called "vintage" class was actually made up of vintage cars, and not just bodies, I'd have no problem with it.
But fact of the matter is that they're proposed rules allow for any TC platform, including the newest models, and no DD or pan cars - along with spec tires and some other very restrictive rules (people are now having problems even getting tires).
And thus, and as anyone that's raced anything knows, as technology increases and new/better models come onto the market they dominate racing and force drivers to buy the latest greatest thing on the market (new car every year syndrome reigns supreme) - I don't car what body they're running.
And when I dared suggest adding a "Lights" (or pan car) classification to increase fields and car counts, and potential racers (that I saw as a lower-cost alternative) - let alone the idea of limiting the vintage racing to actual vintage cars (so there was a reason for people to dust off their old cars sitting unused and unusable on shelves somewhere) - I was told to take me and my ideas and my cars somewhere else and to get out of their sandbox.

The thing that I personally think is "unaffordable" about your idea is simply the idea of long races. While the 2.4 hour concept is cute, it's a long time to keep a car - any car - running -- let alone the cost involved in funding no telling how many tires one is going to go through (the biggest pre-set cost in on-road racing) in addition to the known toll really long races will take on motors and ESCs. For the most part these cars, and their electronics, were designed around the parameters of running a limited amount of minutes (i.e. less than 10) and not around the seemingly all-day affairs of nitro racing. One hour would be one thing, but two and a half seems way over the top.

And, the thing is, that they've tried (and have done) enduros before in all sorts of racing - all the way up to and including 24 hour affairs - and these events are always won by the factory teams. Why? Because they can afford to throw as many tires, parts, etc. as they want at it - while the little guy has long since packed up his car and gone home (only to find that he's left with a worn out, scratched to hell and back, chassis plate - a pile of tires worn to the rim - three or four cooked motors awaiting final death in the trash bin - and three bodies never to see the light of day again --- quite a financial undertaking for the common guy).

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I based these classes off of vintage and GT classes with the belief that someone could change over a few parts to run in either class. This would be cost saving instead of having to invest into a whole different car.
That's fine. I think it's great that someone is proposing an idea that would make it viable to run all sorts of cars, with all sorts of body configuations, together.

But then again, as was alluded by the proposers of the VTA they continue to suggest that changing anything in their so-called "formula" would rob from other currently run classes (or new classes) - yet have overlooked the idea that they are currently robbing from the existing TC classes. This doesn't build a racing base, it just spreads out and dillutes what's already currently there.

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Originally Posted by Boosted561 View Post
My vision of the Vintage/GT classes was not to get people to spend more money in a hobby they're already in. I thought of it as an affordable spec class for people new to the hobby. I'm also thinking about retention as well. So, I've also worked out combo packages with local shops for new people interested in racing in one of the classes listed above. So they'll offer a complete package spec'd to one of these classes (vintage/GT) for around $200-$300. It would basically be a RTR kit, but geared directly to a class that is racing in that area.
I don't know, but while I like the concept of simplification it's been my experience that "spec" classes don't work - at least they don't last for long. The biggest problem, as in any form of racing, is that people are always going to figure out a way to make the proverbial "better mousetrap." And those guys are either going to be outlawed from competing in the spec classes, or tire of the whole thing and move on to something else. And while the manufacturers make a mint off the whole RTR idea, and the inexperienced luv 'em, they don't really hold up to the rigors or real racing - let alone I can't see one holding up to the abuse of a 2-1/2 hour event.

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At what point do you feel that people would excessively damage their cars? Maybe an enduro race should be considered at 60 mins to minimize wear?
Possibly. And then again it's still roughly 6 to 10 times as long as a normal electric race - and that means a lot of tires and motors. I don't know. Heck even 20 minutes would be an enduro - LOL - for electrics.

And you've still got the whole "marshaling" issue to address..........


As I said, I'm not poo-pooing the whole concept - I personally luv the idea of all sorts of different bodies and different platforms and different powerplants and such all running together (TCs, pan cars, even tranmission cars) - I just see too many issues to be addressed.
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Old 05-09-2008, 11:50 AM   #21
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the only issue that I see as it stands is power. each car would have to have a calculated set of battery packs lined up, to be changed every, say, 10 minutes. the problem is charging. to charge a 4200 pack in 10 minutes you would need some serious cooling. maybe even evaporative (IE a huge heatsink over the cells with a plant sprayer type nozzle squirting mist over it).

although, A123 cells can be charged in 15 mins. the cost then becomes astronomical, but, the only other way of doing it i guess is to use cheap (racer cast-off?) GP3300's, as i know of a person who uses 2 chargers in parallel to charge at 20 amps!

i'd love to see this at my local track. the circuit is perfectly suited to this kind of racing.
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Old 05-09-2008, 12:03 PM   #22
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We could just get RedBull to sponsor these events, we need those sweet beer helmet thingys with two RedBulls in it, I would be so wired I'd be bouncing off everything!

But it is an interesting concept, I think it would be fun. Strategic, really, drivers would have to drive conservatively and not destroy their cars. I think it would provoke better driving because you lose precious time when you car's in the pits with it's a-arm halfway across the track.

I like it.
or maybe TEKIN ???????????????????
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Old 05-09-2008, 12:04 PM   #23
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Most of you are to young to remember the 24 hours of Miami. This was for 1/8 th nitro cars and had teams from all over racing for 24 hours. One local hobby shop also held a 500 lap enduro every summer.Charging batteries and keeping the cars going for 500 laps was a challenge.Charging the batteries is one of your last problems- it's the teams problem. Just keeping the cars running is a challenge. At Lake Whippoorwill they used to do enduros.I believe they did 200 lap qualifiers and 500 lap A main.
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Old 05-09-2008, 12:22 PM   #24
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We have done endurance races at our local parking lot track here in Dayton. The way we get around burnt up electronics is to have a 3-4 driver and car team. That way the team can pool battery and charger resources if nesessary and it gives cars time to cool. Depending on how long the race was we would set a limit for how long each driver could drive and the cars also had to be rotated to help keep wear down. Just an idea that could help with some of the concerns I have seen here.
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Old 05-09-2008, 12:56 PM   #25
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Yah, thats what we did at Sines to (i think there was a post about that some time a go). Its a lot easier. 3 drivers teams. The motor was given by the organization (tamyia 23T if i remember correctly). With lipo every driver would do 15-30m rounds depending on the batery and drive style. Each driver run with his one car, but the transponder was the same for the team, so there were interesting pit stops

The control tyre was sweep 32. On carpet we could get 2 hours of track time and they still had plenty of life left.

All considered it was great fun, and not more expensive than any other race. I found that on enduro most drivers go smoother on the throtle, so there werent so many crashes. I run exclusively mod, so i found the 23T almost to easy to drive. Didnt broke a single piece the entire day
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Old 05-09-2008, 01:20 PM   #26
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Thanks for the input everyone! I've updated the first post based on info I've recieved so far. I didn't think about the whole team aspect of it. That's a great solution!
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Old 05-09-2008, 01:27 PM   #27
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I really like the idea, as I have wanted to do one since last year when Trackside said they might do one. I know it would be expensive, but you get a lot of track time
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Old 05-09-2008, 01:49 PM   #28
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Hi guys, I thought I'd put my 2p worth in on this thread. We have raced quite a few endurance races over here in the past and they were all great fun. We have raced in teams of 4 people for a 4 hour event that used the same car but could change cells (of course!) and tyres but not anything else, including the motor! It was good fun because some people went out with regular modofied motors that ended up totally dead towards the end of the 4 hours whereas a couple of teams went out with quite standard motors that although were slower, they lasted the whole event. Those teams made up time at the end and if I remember correctly in came down to a matter od seconds and the final lap for the winner to be decided.

The second type of event was teams of 4 that had to transport the transponder around for 2 hours. You were allowed to use 4 cars and you brought the car into a pit area where the transponder got changed to next car and out again until the next change of car and then on again, for 2 hours!

Both of the events were well attended and everyone had a great time. To be honest, I don't know of anyone that had a problem with wearing out parts prematurely but people did come up with ideas of how to cheat, all in the best taste though!

You guys should try it, really good fun.

Cheers all, Chris.
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:20 PM   #29
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Rather than focus on the negative as some like to do, here are some positives that we learned at the last 4-hour enduro we ran at the Tamiya R&D track in California. Note that the three drivers on our team were all "unsponsored" drivers. We supplied our own cars, equipment and tires and we had a blast doing it. Tearing the front corner off the car three laps in was not our plan but we awere able to replace the corner quickly and drove back up to finish fourth at the end with 833 laps completed. The top three teams did not have any mechanical repairs during the race and the 1st and 2nd place teams finished on the same lap just 6 seconds apart !

As a series, difficult to do. You use up a lot of car parts running a car hard for four hours straight. I replaced most of the drive train components and chassis on my TA05 after it was all over but that was also due to running a mod class motor.

There was just one "open class". Most drivers ran LIPO's and brushless. Motors were more to what the team could handle. We ran a 6.5 Novak system.

Tires and bodies - unless you are getting reduced prices and support from the "spec" tire and body required that you can pass on to the racers, don't make entrants have to use one brand. You can specify certain types of bodies and no dish rims but let people run what they want or have. For your Porsche class as an examlpe, in addition to HPI, Tamiya made a 911 GT-3 body from a TL-01 kit and just released another 911 GT-3 body on a TT-01 kit.

Turn marshalling - each team was required to supply there own marshalls. Seemed tough seeing a person just stand next to a car that was turtled but if a team does not want to get friends to help with the marshalling, that is their decision and their fate.

Good luck on your race plans !
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:33 PM   #30
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Sounds like a good way for folks to go through a lot of tires, motors, batteries, and parts............

........so do you have sponsors lined up to provide such for the racers, or are you expecting guys to dole this cost out themselves while you're giving out purse money and providing trophy girls and such?

In our race we used 1 set of rubber tires, 1 Mabuchi motor, and made teams of 2 or 3 drivers so we could pool our battery packs together. So it was no more expensive then a normal day of driving.
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