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Old 10-31-2008, 03:32 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James35 View Post
It's probably too late for this year, but I wanted to express a concern. Snowbirds is supposed to be the biggest indoor carpet race with the best drivers in the world. I would like to see all of the best drivers end up where they should be. The best way for this to happen is:
  • Using knowledge of driver skill levels to set up the initial heats.
  • Providing as many heats as possible.
  • Watching practice lap times.
  • Watching heat lap times.
I know that the first 2 items are used at Snowbirds. The organizers use their knowledge of the racers from past experience to get them roughly organized in the right starting heats. The computer resorts the racers after the heats.

But to my knowledge, the last two options aren't used. Last year for example, I know of a couple of racers who were on a TQ pace, but got taken out by less skilled drivers. Of course , it's one thing to be able to drive in traffic, but it's another thing when there is nothing you can do about it. No matter how good you are, there are situations where the less skilled drivers can take you out (in many various ways). You know what I mean.

Concerning the heat resorting, I would like to see the race directors bump up racers when it's clearly obvious that a racer's skill level is higher than the heat they are in. One of the easiest ways to see this on paper is the racer's average top 10 laps. This can easily be looked at for practice and the heats. I hope in the future that this can be incorporated into the resorting.

People travel, take time off of work, and spend a lot of money to race at Snowbirds. I'd like to see all racers rewarded with a result that they deserve. I'd love to see another round of qualifying heats. I think the organizers should be careful with the amount of time spent on minority specialty classes and races that take away from the majority racer's track time and qualifying rounds.


james no offense but the fairest way to do it is just enter the racers in the computer and let the computer sort the heats.

IMO stacking the heats is crap. If your a national champ, prove it drive the traffic. use your head and show us how good you are. THAT'S RACING!!


FYI the past 2 years this is how it is was done. and guess what the same names still made it to the top.
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Old 10-31-2008, 03:52 PM   #92
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then why qualify at all if you want to stack the heats then let the race diredtor decide the mains. that way no one has to race for the A main?
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Old 10-31-2008, 04:45 PM   #93
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on a side note last year at the snowbirds I was having a rough time getting the handling on my car right, so I was in the last main and finished in last place.Before my last qualifier I was told by another racer that" I am better than this so when I come up on you move out of my way, I shouldn't be in this qualifer". Wow what a thing to say but that is what resorting does . racing is about skill , you don't see Nascar pre sorting and sorting that is why it is called qualifiing.
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Last edited by hairy; 10-31-2008 at 04:49 PM. Reason: sp
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Old 10-31-2008, 05:13 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Big Features View Post
Yeah, I saw that. But it gives 3 possibilities for motors and two options for batteries. All at the discretion of the hosting track or league. Just wondering what is going to be used at this particular race.
Klinger, its always been your discretion of what combo to run at any track, however, if your smart, youll run 21.5/lipo
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Old 10-31-2008, 06:03 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davepull View Post
james no offense but the fairest way to do it is just enter the racers in the computer and let the computer sort the heats.

IMO stacking the heats is crap. If your a national champ, prove it drive the traffic. use your head and show us how good you are. THAT'S RACING!!
(No offense taken, but here is my response)

So regardless of where anyone is initially sorted, the national champ will make it to the top? He's going to be good enough to avoid 7 other cars no matter what happens? He can control the wrecks in front of him (or done to him), and the corner marshals, and all other variables? If you use your head and drive in traffic, then 1 qualifying heat and 1 main should be enough to bring all the best to the top, right? Clearly this is not the case. You'll also notice that I said, "Of course , it's one thing to be able to drive in traffic, but it's another thing when there is nothing you can do about it. No matter how good you are, there are situations where the less skilled drivers can take you out (in many various ways). You know what I mean."

So why do we use more than just 1 qualifying heat? Well the answer is to help reduce some of the uncontrollable variables. This helps to reduce the luck factor and helps to reveal the talent with an end goal of placing like-skilled drivers together. It has a side benefit of making some great racing.

So if we all agree that the act of presorting the initial heats, and offering multiple qualifiers with resorts helps to place racers where they should be, then offering a "Top 10 laps bonus bump" is an added option that could also be considered. I never said it had to be a full bump all the way up to where the lap times might suggest you should be, but it could certainly be used as a bonus to get you closer to where you should be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hairy
then why qualify at all if you want to stack the heats then let the race diredtor decide the mains. that way no one has to race for the A main?
Do we really need to reply to that? Each year, the cars, technologies, track conditions, skill, experience, (and sometimes rules) are going to be different. Everyone needs to reestablish why they deserve to be placed in their Mains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hairy
you don't see Nascar pre sorting and sorting that is why it is called qualifiing
That's quite a bit different. You are talking about a single NASCAR race. NASCAR uses a points system all year long to determine the champion. At Snowbirds, we are trying determine who the champ is by cramming it all in 5 days.

On a side note, many of the World RC Finals run the A-Main three times using points to determine the champ! I didn't mention this as an option because I'm not sure we have time for that at Snowbirds. But as you can see, there are measures that can be (and are) done to place you where you deserve to be for that year. A well run competition will be fair, organized and reveals the talent. This is helpful for new potential racers looking to enter into the hobby. If it was a luck hackfest, skilless, and there were no stars in the hobby, we might as well just bash. I for one, am rooting for the best to at least make it to the A Main.
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Old 10-31-2008, 06:14 PM   #96
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Sorry I did not mean to let my avatar show.
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Old 10-31-2008, 06:29 PM   #97
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The problem I see with presorts and resorts is that for every good driver that gets resorted up, a lesser driver gets resorted down. Every resort then makes it more and more difficult to actually move up. Take someone who normally doesn't race carpet for example...that person may be capable of making higher mains but the longer it takes them to get the setup right the further down the pack they get sorted and the harder it becomes to get into higher mains.
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Old 10-31-2008, 06:47 PM   #98
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It also becomes - WHO you know or knows you - instead of how well you drive. ie: you are the top driver at your track, never been to a national event and say your skill level would put you in the top 25%. No way you will get PreStacked there.

I would never be confused as someone in that position - but they would be stacked down with me
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Old 10-31-2008, 07:03 PM   #99
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There really is not better way to do it. I thinks the process is as fair as you can get with so many people running.

Personally, I'm less worried about making the show then giving my very best.
This race is supposed to be fun, and i'm not going to politics get in the way.
I had issues last year too. Took a while before I got my car and mind right.
I ended up 2nd in the "C" and felt pretty good about it. My lap times were better then some in the "B", but a mid-race "neck bone" cost me the race.
Its all good and part of the spectical.

Either way, I'm looking forward to seeing old friends and great competition.

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Old 10-31-2008, 07:47 PM   #100
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Well, I guess the only way around all of the variables is to let everybody run on the track by them self for 5min. Oh, we'd better put them in a vacuum to eliminate wind variables. I'm sure somebody's breath will disrupt a car coming off the straight, but not the next car.

Really, this is what your suggesting but in a less drastic approach. Those variables your talking about are racing. This is what racing is. The top drivers have had to deal with these variables since they started just like regular folk have had to, and will continue to well after the Snowbirds at their respective home tracks and other events.

"That's Racing" is true. If you can't shrug it off and say "well, I'll get'em next round" they maybe you should look at another hobby.

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Old 10-31-2008, 08:06 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Features View Post
There really is not better way to do it. I thinks the process is as fair as you can get with so many people running.

Personally, I'm less worried about making the show then giving my very best.
This race is supposed to be fun, and i'm not going to politics get in the way.
I had issues last year too. Took a while before I got my car and mind right.
I ended up 2nd in the "C" and felt pretty good about it. My lap times were better then some in the "B", but a mid-race "neck bone" cost me the race.
Its all good and part of the spectical.

Either way, I'm looking forward to seeing old friends and great competition.

Mike
I look foward to meeting new friends and great competition I'll be happy puttering around in the last mains
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Old 10-31-2008, 09:01 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Features View Post
Yeah, I saw that. But it gives 3 possibilities for motors and two options for batteries. All at the discretion of the hosting track or league. Just wondering what is going to be used at this particular race.
That's because you can run any of the 3 motor combinations. The goal of the class is to have all 3 be equal. However, as mentioned, on most carpet tracks, Lipo 21.5 is the best option.

The discretion of the track is if they wish to further restrict the FDR on the 21.5 option if 4.2 proves to be to much of an advantage for that motor.

Hope that helps. Visit the Trans Am thread on this forum for more info.

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Old 10-31-2008, 09:04 PM   #103
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Some awesome videos on YouTube from the 2008 Snowbirds:
Road:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SztGGoBIOQc

Oval:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT3LgbkMAFs
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Old 11-01-2008, 05:39 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Features View Post
Yeah, I saw that. But it gives 3 possibilities for motors and two options for batteries. All at the discretion of the hosting track or league. Just wondering what is going to be used at this particular race.
That's the beauty of the USVTA Class - you got options...

you can either run:
27t/4celll
17.5/4cell
or
21.5/lipo

21.5 is the only motor option that allows the lipo - the 27t or the 17.5 MUST run the 4cell battery options. plain and simple...

that's it...nothing difficult to it..The "right" driver can be equally fast with any of the combinations

All the talk about the USVTA class is here - http://www.rctech.net/forum/electric...am-racing.html
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Old 11-01-2008, 05:44 AM   #105
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The discretion of the track is if they wish to further restrict the FDR on the 21.5 option if 4.2 proves to be to much of an advantage for that motor.
That's not a discretion of the track - its the black-n-white rule of the class...

If you run the 21.5/lipo option you are locked into a MAX FDR of 4.2 - meaing 4.3 is legal (and faster in most cases) and 4.19 is illegal...

The 'Birds will have people from the USVTA teching this class, so unless something changes in the class rules, what's on the website are the rules are...

21.5 is Novak only and lipo is only for the 21.5 motors and if you run the 21.5/lipo you are locked into a FDR of 4.2
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Last edited by k_bojar; 11-01-2008 at 08:21 PM.
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