Tekin RS ESC sensored
04-18-2009, 08:52 AM
#3361
Originally Posted by Trips
From what I've read here, there's no RPM or throttle position based shift in timing when using boost, it's simply more timing added to what is set at the endbell of the motor, and is there the whole time the motor is running.
From what I've read here, there's no RPM or throttle position based shift in timing when using boost, it's simply more timing added to what is set at the endbell of the motor, and is there the whole time the motor is running.
--pakk
04-18-2009, 08:58 AM
#3362
i too thought that once sensored only mode is enabled, timing under the boost bar was always applied from 0 to 100% throttle (and from 0 to full rpms).
However, while testing the boost and gradually increasing boost from 15 to 30... i'm unable to feel the car slower in take offs... however the difference in top end is very noticeable....
i think a clarification on what is actually happening from tekin is now in order
g
However, while testing the boost and gradually increasing boost from 15 to 30... i'm unable to feel the car slower in take offs... however the difference in top end is very noticeable....
i think a clarification on what is actually happening from tekin is now in order
g
04-18-2009, 09:10 AM
#3363
I don't recall reading anything "official" regarding RPM-based timing change, either to confirm it or deny it. But based on observation, I tend to believe that the boost starts coming in at a certain RPm, which is believe is a low to medium RPM. I believe this to be so because I don't see increasing boost to have much if any negative effect on the starting line or coming out of slow hairpin corners.
04-18-2009, 09:10 AM
#3364
i too thought that once sensored only mode is enabled, timing under the boost bar was always applied from 0 to 100% throttle (and from 0 to full rpms).
However, while testing the boost and gradually increasing boost from 15 to 30... i'm unable to feel the car slower in take offs... however the difference in top end is very noticeable....
i think a clarification on what is actually happening from tekin is now in order
However, while testing the boost and gradually increasing boost from 15 to 30... i'm unable to feel the car slower in take offs... however the difference in top end is very noticeable....
i think a clarification on what is actually happening from tekin is now in order
@ trips
It is tough because Tekin is somewhat vague when answering sometimes. I think that previous quote clarifies it and what we have seen in our own cars prove that is has to be RPM dependent.
04-18-2009, 09:29 AM
#3365
I'm sure that to a certain degree they don't want to tip their hand as to exactly how the ESC operates. It wouldn't make sense to say "here's our superior product, and here's exactly how it works!"
All I know is since I figured out the gearing, I have crazy rip off the line while still going through the radar trap as fast as anyone and faster than most.
That's all I need to know. There could be a magic elf on a squirrel wheel in there for all I care as long as it's this fast.
All I know is since I figured out the gearing, I have crazy rip off the line while still going through the radar trap as fast as anyone and faster than most.
That's all I need to know. There could be a magic elf on a squirrel wheel in there for all I care as long as it's this fast.
04-18-2009, 10:02 AM
#3367
There's a good chance it is RPM based not throttle. I made my earlier statement from listing to my car when being held off the track. Regardless of where the motor timing is when you set boost in Sensored only mode, with 189 and 194 software, the rpm's take a dramatic jump when I hit about 90% throttle on the remote.
With that being said and the car not under a load, it very well could be motor rpm based and logically would be the best solution. That way if you get on the throttle coming out of a corner it's not trying to use boost when it shouldn’t.
The major point to get from this is with 189 and 194 software, boost adds timing to the motor near the top end which increases the RPM.
What I've seen at our track from people using RS ESC's is that 0 timing on the motor and 25-30 boost seems to work best for 13.5. Our carpet track is average size, 90’X50’. We've also seen, like the posts above, that you need to gear down to keep the motor from overheating. This is not all that bad of a thing, since this will give you way more torque coming out of a corner.
As I mentioned earlier, Motor timing decreases torque output but increases RPM. This also has the adverse effect of increasing heat in the motor. So static timing adjustment added when adjusting the endbell of the motor was great when using an ESC that could not change timing, but there was some sacrifice to corner exiting power. With these new ESC's, and the advantage to the Tekin being upgradable, is they can add timing at any RPM level.
That's why Tekin really needs to give the user capabilities to create timing maps based on motor rpm. This would be a major advantage over every other ESC on the market today. I have a feeling this is what the new SPX ESC is doing but it's hard coded in the ESC and can not be adjusted by the user.
With that being said and the car not under a load, it very well could be motor rpm based and logically would be the best solution. That way if you get on the throttle coming out of a corner it's not trying to use boost when it shouldn’t.
The major point to get from this is with 189 and 194 software, boost adds timing to the motor near the top end which increases the RPM.
What I've seen at our track from people using RS ESC's is that 0 timing on the motor and 25-30 boost seems to work best for 13.5. Our carpet track is average size, 90’X50’. We've also seen, like the posts above, that you need to gear down to keep the motor from overheating. This is not all that bad of a thing, since this will give you way more torque coming out of a corner.
As I mentioned earlier, Motor timing decreases torque output but increases RPM. This also has the adverse effect of increasing heat in the motor. So static timing adjustment added when adjusting the endbell of the motor was great when using an ESC that could not change timing, but there was some sacrifice to corner exiting power. With these new ESC's, and the advantage to the Tekin being upgradable, is they can add timing at any RPM level.
That's why Tekin really needs to give the user capabilities to create timing maps based on motor rpm. This would be a major advantage over every other ESC on the market today. I have a feeling this is what the new SPX ESC is doing but it's hard coded in the ESC and can not be adjusted by the user.
04-18-2009, 11:52 AM
#3368
That's why Tekin really needs to give the user capabilities to create timing maps based on motor rpm. This would be a major advantage over every other ESC on the market today. I have a feeling this is what the new SPX ESC is doing but it's hard coded in the ESC and can not be adjusted by the user.
The yellow line on the graph represents the timing at various RPM, in the interface I'm imagining, the yellow line would start as a horizontal line across the bottom with a box at the far left and far right. You'd drag the far left box up the graph to set the initial amount of timing, the far right box to set the final amount of timing. You'd then be able to click anywhere along the yellow line to add some more drag boxes to alter the shape of the line to suit your preferences. There would have to be a limit to the number of interim points you could set, I would think four or five would probably be plenty...
In this picture, the timing starts at 4 degrees, stays at that value til 6000RPM, then ramps up to 20 degrees by 14000, then ramps up to 25 degrees between 14000 and 20000, then stays at 25 degrees from there on up.
Seems to me this would be a pretty intuitive interface, but I have no idea how hard it would be to actually implement something like this, or if it would even be possible...
04-18-2009, 12:37 PM
#3369
Tech Regular
RS and Redline 5.5bl advice needed,
Just bought a Redline 5.5 to use in my 1/12th lokng for rollout and Esc settings.
Also do I leave motor timing as it came.
Also do I leave motor timing as it came.
04-18-2009, 01:33 PM
#3370
Trips,
Looks good to me. That's what i had envisioned also. The software would be easy. It's the hardware implementation in the ESC that would prevent this from happening. Hopefully Tekin had something like this is the back of there mind when they designed the R1\RS to make it possible.
Looks good to me. That's what i had envisioned also. The software would be easy. It's the hardware implementation in the ESC that would prevent this from happening. Hopefully Tekin had something like this is the back of there mind when they designed the R1\RS to make it possible.
04-18-2009, 02:12 PM
#3371
tellan,
I'd leave the motor timing as it came, if you're running the RS speed control I recommend running in dual mode with little or no timing advance on the slider.
I'm making an educated guess here, but I'd start around 36 to 38mm or so rollout, and watch temps closely. Really watch the temps often at first, a relatively low turn motor can get away from you pretty quickly if it's overgeared. If it stays pretty cool, creep up on the pinion or timing advance slider. If you're going to go up on the pinion or slider, I'd say to go up on the pinion if the car is excessively punchy in the infield, if not, then go up on the timing advance slider.
With a 5.5 I'd expect some fade in lap times by the end of the run, not from heat so much as from getting down near the bottom of the battery. Gear for best average lap times over 8 minutes rather than for the absolute fastest laps a the beginning. If you can, drive with a real light throttle finger, don't push as hard as you can early on and you should be able to make consistent lap times the whole eight.
If you're running single cell LiPO instead of four NIMH cells, start a bit higher on the gear, maybe 42mm rollout to start, but again, keep a close eye on the temps at first.
Bear in mind I haven't run a 5.5 myself in a 1/12, so take these rollout numbers as educated guesses rather than gospel. I do know that Mike Blackstock ran a 36mm rollout in mod 1/12 at the '09 Snowbirds with a 4.5 motor (according to his setup sheet, anyway), so 36mm ought to be a safe starting point with a 5.5, but watch the temps constantly at first.
Keep a close eye on temps, and work from there. Don't be afraid to start even lower on the rollout if you have the time to put in some practice runs.
And just in case I haven't mentioned it enough times, check temps constantly until you find the sweet spot.
I'd leave the motor timing as it came, if you're running the RS speed control I recommend running in dual mode with little or no timing advance on the slider.
I'm making an educated guess here, but I'd start around 36 to 38mm or so rollout, and watch temps closely. Really watch the temps often at first, a relatively low turn motor can get away from you pretty quickly if it's overgeared. If it stays pretty cool, creep up on the pinion or timing advance slider. If you're going to go up on the pinion or slider, I'd say to go up on the pinion if the car is excessively punchy in the infield, if not, then go up on the timing advance slider.
With a 5.5 I'd expect some fade in lap times by the end of the run, not from heat so much as from getting down near the bottom of the battery. Gear for best average lap times over 8 minutes rather than for the absolute fastest laps a the beginning. If you can, drive with a real light throttle finger, don't push as hard as you can early on and you should be able to make consistent lap times the whole eight.
If you're running single cell LiPO instead of four NIMH cells, start a bit higher on the gear, maybe 42mm rollout to start, but again, keep a close eye on the temps at first.
Bear in mind I haven't run a 5.5 myself in a 1/12, so take these rollout numbers as educated guesses rather than gospel. I do know that Mike Blackstock ran a 36mm rollout in mod 1/12 at the '09 Snowbirds with a 4.5 motor (according to his setup sheet, anyway), so 36mm ought to be a safe starting point with a 5.5, but watch the temps constantly at first.
Keep a close eye on temps, and work from there. Don't be afraid to start even lower on the rollout if you have the time to put in some practice runs.
And just in case I haven't mentioned it enough times, check temps constantly until you find the sweet spot.
04-18-2009, 03:12 PM
#3373
Tech Master
I gear lighter and lighter and the car keeps going on. keeps his top speed and acceleration. Started out with 4,7 and I have now a gear ration of 5,1 with a speedpassion motor.
Wile all the others are geared 4,5 to 4,7.
Testing it tomorrow on 5,3 and lighter.
Wile all the others are geared 4,5 to 4,7.
Testing it tomorrow on 5,3 and lighter.
04-18-2009, 08:03 PM
#3375
Is everyone's Redline motors loud? I thought it was just my car (running a shaft drive car now) but turns out it was actually the motor(s) that are loud. I put my Trinity in and it was at least 4X's quieter. Both my Redlines are loud 21.5 and 17.5. The 21.5 a little louder.
Im OK with them being loud if that is how its supposed to be. I was just surprised by the difference.
Im OK with them being loud if that is how its supposed to be. I was just surprised by the difference.