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Old 05-24-2010, 06:35 PM   #14821
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to get exactly what you need out of it is to use a data logger
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Old 05-24-2010, 07:26 PM   #14822
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I spoke with Tekin today and they said my motor had a bad sensor. I put another motor in (different brand and wind ) and the thing went up in smoke!
Looks like I won't be racing for a while



Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW View Post
In regards to the above posts, i have had similar problems with my Tekin RS. This post is only to share my findings/situation.

My RS would stutter at startup, unless the motor shaft was initially spun by hand. Then the motor would spool up, and the lights on the RS would show full throttle. If i dropped to half throttle and brought it back up to WOT, the lights would do the same on the RS... but the motor would clearly sound either faster or slower each time. If i let off the throttle and waited for the motor to stop, 80% of the time it would start up on its own. If i went from WOT to full brake, i had to spin the shaft to get it started again... or it wouldnt start again at all. Each time i goosed the trigger for throttle, the motor would stutter and make varying squelching sounds. The motor would then get extremely hot.

Let me tell you what all i have done/changed, convinced this was a loading software or sensor issue.

2 LRPx12 17.5 motors
1 LRPx12 13.5 motor

This includes just sensor swaps in each motor to verify it wasnt a Precisensor or motor stack issue. Timing inserts were tried in 0, -5, and -10 positions. Positive physical timing wasnt tried for obvious reasons.

1 Speed Passion 13.5 motor
1 Speed Passion 10.5 motor

Both Speed Passion motors are unaltered.

All 5 motors worked prior to, and after this testing on another brand 'X' speedo.

Sensor wire was also swapped out, methodically on each motor and replicated the test procedure.

As far as software goes, i have loaded and loaded and loaded until i never want to open Hotwire again. Each time i changed motors or the sensor wire, i reloaded the software to the RS, and reprogrammed my transmitter. I tried rolling back the software, and updating to BETA 203. That DID actually fix one thing. I set Turbo delay to .5 to be able to hear if there was a change in motor RPM. After the second time i updated to BETA 203, i could hear the motor hit max RPM, then bump up a little higher. It didnt do that before. If i replicated the previous tests, the results were the same... and the motor got hot even faster. The speedo even got up to the 4th led for temp. It didnt do that before.

Now all of these tests were bench tests... not track tests. I would imagine my issues would have been partially masked except at startup. Tapping the brakes wouldnt bring the car to a complete stop, so the shaft would be spinning from the driveline and let the speedo start the motor. So for those guys that seem to have similar issues, try testing the setup with the motor unloaded.

If the issues went away when i went to the unaltered Speed Passion motors, i might lean towards the discussion of advanced mechanical timing found in the LRP's. Im not convinced. I can see the need to reduce RS timing considering advanced physical motor timing, but i dont think that is relevant to these issues.

Oh, and the cherry on top of all this? This was a NIB Tekin RS speedo. Im hoping that the one i get back from Tekin works great. Since i started racing in 1994 i have never had to send a speedo back for repairs... until now.
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Old 05-24-2010, 08:15 PM   #14823
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Originally Posted by Randy_Pike View Post
Don't run the speedo without a cap. If you can't find the right ones: TT3520 a good 16v 1000uf cap will work. They can be found at most Radio shacks.
Hi,

1. Do we have to be concerned about the ESR rating of the cap as well?

2. Slightly off topic, but the stock (330uf) cap on my Tekin FX Pro becomes very hot, after the battery is plugged in, despite the ESC not being switched on. Is this a sign of the cap going bad?

3. I run the Tekin RS as well. Is the 330uf cap truly sufficient for all purposes, even for lower wound motors?

PS: I was hoping to ask all these questions on the Tekin forum, but till now, my activation is still not send to me.
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Old 05-24-2010, 10:57 PM   #14824
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Originally Posted by outlandr91 View Post
I spoke with Tekin today and they said my motor had a bad sensor. I put another motor in (different brand and wind ) and the thing went up in smoke!
Looks like I won't be racing for a while
I had a similar problems as yours when I paired my RSPro with a Novak 4.5R (dual mode). The motor will not start smoothly, the motor posts (A,B,C) and the motor wires will get red hot after a few feet.

It looks like the motor is drawing a LOT of current from the ESC because something is preventing the motor to turn smoothly.

I emailed both Tekin and Novak and both suspect to be a bad sensor board on the 4.5R, since the RS would work with my other motors in both sensored or dual mode.

One option you can try is to pull off the sensor wires into the Tekin and run sensorless mode and see if the problem goes away.

But the better option is to replace the wire or sensor board or try another motor.
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:11 PM   #14825
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Originally Posted by DrBen View Post
Im still trying to understand the inital idea of turbo vs. boost..
The boost makes completely sense to me: the faster the motor turns, the more timing I add, considering the factors rpm, torque, heat and efficiency.

I also understand that turbo will add even more timing on top of boost.
But what I dont understand: Why is this based on a time delay?

Using a fixed time for the turbo to kick in includes quite a few variables into the equation (track conditions, car weight, actual point when WOT is applied, etc.) the moment when the extra timing kicks in needs to figured out by guessing and trying.
For a given straight, you might well arrive at a good point, and get the turbo to kick in at a certain point when its beneficial, but if you have different straights on a track (or want to use the same setup on different tracks) this might not hit the sweet spot at all times.

For my understanding, it would make more sense to base the turbo timing on rpm, same as the boost.
Lets say I run 40 boost (5k-20k), and 15 turbo (0.6), and this makes the turbo kick in roughly at the point where 20k rpm is reached.
Without turbo, the acceleration would ease off at 20k, and the motor would maybe spool up to 22k. With turbo, it would accelerate a bit more, and maybe spool up to 24k.
--> What would be the difference in performance when I increase boost to 55 and the rpm range to 5k-24k, and set the turbo to 0?
Im thinking this would allow the extra 15* to come in much more accurate and smooth,
compared to adding it via time delay, where its likely to kick in a bit before or after 20k.

The only advantage of turbo I can see is the steeper ramp at the end, so more timing is applied in a shorter time.
But again my lack of understanding for the time delay: Why is the turbo not based on rpm? For a steeper timing ramp on the upper rpms, the turbo could have an rpm range as well, and I would set 40 boost (5k-20k) and 15 turbo (20k-24k).

I read alot in this thread, but looking at the number of posts, it might well be that I missed something.
If some of the gurus on this board could elaborate on the above or point me to the right posts, that would be greatly appreciated!
i'm no guru but i have spent a lot of time on the tekin with 10.5t motors. I see where you're heading with your post. I work in fuel injection tuning software and i have a lot of experience with RPM/load tables for ignition timing, fueling on car engines. Motor timing is a very time sensitive thing so you can't spend much time calculating other things in between reading the hall sensors, calculating the RPM and actually controlling the motor phases. I suspect the tiny little MCU on Tekin doesn't have the grunt and/or the flash space to do much more than what it's doing now.

In the end it's a heat tradeoff, turbo only makes sense on the straights if you're not already peaking motor temps on the track without the turbo. I think the time delay thing while not being perfect is a good compromise. It allows for two main setups:

1. the normal setup where you set the delay longer than any times you might spend at full throttle in the infield. Usually this results in sometimes the turbo engaging in the infield *or* coming on later down the straight than ideal.

2. the zero delay setup, where you setup the turbo delay to zero and purposely drive the infield at less than full throttle to avoid turbo. The good thing about this is when you want the power you have it right there, the downside of course is pushing harder and harder on the infield will result in a fried motor.

way back in this thread somewhere i posted that an "RPM to Ignore Turbo Delay" would be a nice feature. Basically engaging turbo instantly at full throttle when above a certain RPM (which could be the upper RPM that already exists for boost and just an extra checkbox to allow it, or just make the software work that way). This would help with times when you get off the throttle momentarily on a straight, such as a passing someone exiting a corner or the car getting a little loose on exit and you want turbo to come back immediately. It could also almost do what you are talking about.

Another thing with 10.5t motors is they get to 32k RPM very quickly so having boost work higher than that would also be nice Again, could also be a limit of the MCU on the speedy.

The interesting thing with all this stuff is this is just the first generation of these speedies. Wait until someone squeezes a decent MCU in there that has 100x the grunt and more flash space. All kinds of new things will appear, RPM/throttle/current based timing maps, temperature based motor protection / current limiting, more accurate RPM sensing would allow derivative based and adaptive acceleration/braking controls (ie. traction controls), this is just the beginning...
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:14 PM   #14826
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Randy,

1) Could you explain the difference in the cap you listed, TT3520 16v 1000uf, and the stock one that comes with the RS Pro?

2) Is there one you would suggest I could wire into the RX to help with Brown outs?

3) I received my new fiber wrapped replacement 1/8 scale rotor - thanks. I was under the impression that the new ones are no longer wound with fiber. Could you verify?

Thanks
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:57 PM   #14827
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Hey All,

I recently bought an rs system with 10.5 motor.

The esc is fine but i always thought the motor screamed alot.

So i got another redline.... and its much quieter... even turning the motor by hand the old motor is noisy and makes a bit of a dull rattle. I pulled it down and couldnt find any thin wrong with it... nothing loose. The funny thing is the "old motor" i bought brand new has had no work... half a race meet and it was cold the whole time. The latest motor i got my hands on... well it was second hand and im sure is done more work.

Anyone had this issue? will Tekin fix it?
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Old 05-25-2010, 01:11 AM   #14828
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Hello guys..........actually i'm from Malaysia......i run my tekin rs pro with orca motor actually 11.5t.........i need setup
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Old 05-25-2010, 01:54 AM   #14829
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Originally Posted by nazaboy View Post
Hello guys..........actually i'm from Malaysia......i run my tekin rs pro with orca motor actually 11.5t.........i need setup
which version of orca motor are you using now?
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Old 05-25-2010, 03:59 AM   #14830
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Originally Posted by Spdjunky View Post
Randy,

1) Could you explain the difference in the cap you listed, TT3520 16v 1000uf, and the stock one that comes with the RS Pro?

2) Is there one you would suggest I could wire into the RX to help with Brown outs?

3) I received my new fiber wrapped replacement 1/8 scale rotor - thanks. I was under the impression that the new ones are no longer wound with fiber. Could you verify?

Thanks
I can tell you that to stop rx brown outs due to high power hungry servo's etc, you have to run at least a 2200uf 10v or 16v cap (as long as the voltage is higher than the battery pack) also 3300uf is usually better but can be too big in phisical dimensions sometimes, usually a 2200uf if sufficent inuff to stop brown out due to interrmittent high current load on the rx.

I had a high power servo cutting out rx bind when i turned the wheel fast, put a 1000uf on , helped a tiny bit, put a 2200uf on fixed the bind issue but personal transponder still lost power intermittantly when turning wheel fast back and forth, so put a 3300uf on and everything was fixed
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Old 05-25-2010, 07:23 AM   #14831
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Originally Posted by TeamWTF View Post
Hey All,

I recently bought an rs system with 10.5 motor.

The esc is fine but i always thought the motor screamed alot.

So i got another redline.... and its much quieter... even turning the motor by hand the old motor is noisy and makes a bit of a dull rattle. I pulled it down and couldnt find any thin wrong with it... nothing loose. The funny thing is the "old motor" i bought brand new has had no work... half a race meet and it was cold the whole time. The latest motor i got my hands on... well it was second hand and im sure is done more work.

Anyone had this issue? will Tekin fix it?
Try adding more shims to the rotor.
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Old 05-25-2010, 08:16 AM   #14832
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hello i would like to now how long for the 2.08 fw to come out and what size track would you not have the turbo on as i think its cutting in as i need to slow down so stoping the brakes working have tried all sorts of delays thanks for the help
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Old 05-25-2010, 08:54 AM   #14833
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lower the delay,lower the turbo,gear down so it max's out earlier.what size is the track
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Old 05-25-2010, 08:55 AM   #14834
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBen View Post
Im still trying to understand the inital idea of turbo vs. boost..
The boost makes completely sense to me: the faster the motor turns, the more timing I add, considering the factors rpm, torque, heat and efficiency.

I also understand that turbo will add even more timing on top of boost.
But what I dont understand: Why is this based on a time delay?

Using a fixed time for the turbo to kick in includes quite a few variables into the equation (track conditions, car weight, actual point when WOT is applied, etc.) the moment when the extra timing kicks in needs to figured out by guessing and trying.
For a given straight, you might well arrive at a good point, and get the turbo to kick in at a certain point when its beneficial, but if you have different straights on a track (or want to use the same setup on different tracks) this might not hit the sweet spot at all times.

For my understanding, it would make more sense to base the turbo timing on rpm, same as the boost.
Lets say I run 40 boost (5k-20k), and 15 turbo (0.6), and this makes the turbo kick in roughly at the point where 20k rpm is reached.
Without turbo, the acceleration would ease off at 20k, and the motor would maybe spool up to 22k. With turbo, it would accelerate a bit more, and maybe spool up to 24k.
--> What would be the difference in performance when I increase boost to 55 and the rpm range to 5k-24k, and set the turbo to 0?
Im thinking this would allow the extra 15* to come in much more accurate and smooth,
compared to adding it via time delay, where its likely to kick in a bit before or after 20k.

The only advantage of turbo I can see is the steeper ramp at the end, so more timing is applied in a shorter time.
But again my lack of understanding for the time delay: Why is the turbo not based on rpm? For a steeper timing ramp on the upper rpms, the turbo could have an rpm range as well, and I would set 40 boost (5k-20k) and 15 turbo (20k-24k).

I read alot in this thread, but looking at the number of posts, it might well be that I missed something.
If some of the gurus on this board could elaborate on the above or point me to the right posts, that would be greatly appreciated!
Interesting. I kinda agree with you. I'd be interested to see if Tekin has a response to this.

One thing to think about is Turbo is applied at full throttle. You may reach 20K before you hit full throttle. So do you want Turbo to kick in before you are at full throttle? Probably not. Turbo is meant for top end on a long straight. So maybe the right way could be only apply Turbo if two criteria are met: the end RPM has been reached, AND you are at full throttle.

The boost and turbo are often referred to like switching gears. So why not set it so that the 3rd gear can't be engaged until second gear has been used up? Idk...just thinking aloud.
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Old 05-25-2010, 10:19 AM   #14835
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Originally Posted by gameover View Post
I work in fuel injection tuning software and i have a lot of experience with RPM/load tables for ignition timing, fueling on car engines...
Hondata (KPro/S300) or AEM? KManager here...
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