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Old 03-19-2010, 02:04 AM   #13411
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Originally Posted by Krio View Post
You edited your post so I had to redo everything I was typing. lol

Load changes how quickly the rpm changes, but has no effect on the optimum timing. Using an offroad example, say you have a big elevation change on the track (a hill climb of sorts) and the motor is at 10k rpm and the esc is at 30 degrees which provides maximum torque at 10k. Now assume the torque output matches the force required to climb said hill. The rpm does not change, but neither does the timing as the esc only cares about the rpm. You are staying at the optimum timing whether or not the esc knows the load on the motor.

Don't take the the wrong way, but reading most of your previous posts makes me wonder if you aren't mixing in some combustion torque vs efficiency ideas into your throught process on the electrical side...

The only time anyone would benefit from a change in timing to maximize efficiency is at a steady state, such as a sweeper or chicane. Simplifying the throttle finger of any given racer at any other time you either want max torque or maximum braking force. If you were to try and retard (or advance) the timing to a theoretical max efficiency you would be altering the torque vs current characteristic at that rpm. If you retarded the timing you would lose torque and either the driver or the esc would have to provide more "throttle" to make up for it. Now, applying more throttle doesn't mean more current would be flowing as the retarded timing would put the back emf at a higher value. However, what I consider more important to efficiency is something you need to consider: the "feel". Of course the esc could automatically apply more "throttle" to make up for the loss and the driver would be non the wiser. The problem is that the esc can't know what throttle it needs to apply without either an endless list of sensors or knowing the future.
Yes, and yes. I need to think a bit more about all this. The problem is that most people try to convince you that the torque output of electric motors is linear (as opposed to petrol engines). If the motor had fixed timing, I would agree. We are however playing with timing on the fly and that changes the equation in my opinion. I am not aware of any serious experiments (be it under lab conditions, not necessarily in the real world) to demonstrate either way, so I am struggling a bit to agree.

Yes, the steady state is what you're trying to get to when your car is at top speed (i.e. going down the main straight). That's what I was talking about and I think that's where you have a good chance to keep temperatures down if you tune your ESC correctly (after having chosen the gearing you like). If you don't reach max efficiency there, the motor will be labouring to accelerate spurred on by the timing advance cranked up whilst friction and aerodynamic drag are limiting its speed. The result is heat.

In your example with the offroad car climbing a hill if you indeed hit the ramp at the right RPM/max torque, indeed you can keep at constant RPM but that means you will climb at constant speed. This does not contradict my statement that peak torque changes with timing. In my hypothesis, you could be climbing the same hill at different RPM/torque peak and hopefully at higher constant speed.
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Old 03-19-2010, 02:22 AM   #13412
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Originally Posted by niznai View Post
Yes, and yes. I need to think a bit more about all this. The problem is that most people try to convince you that the torque output of electric motors is linear (as opposed to petrol engines). If the motor had fixed timing, I would agree. We are however playing with timing on the fly and that changes the equation in my opinion. I am not aware of any serious experiments (be it under lab conditions, not necessarily in the real world) to demonstrate either way, so I am struggling a bit to agree.

If you could clarify what you mean by "linear" I think that might go a long way in my response. lol

Yes, the steady state is what you're trying to get to when your car is at top speed (i.e. going down the main straight). That's what I was talking about and I think that's where you have a good chance to keep temperatures down if you tune your ESC correctly (after having chosen the gearing you like). If you don't reach max efficiency there, the motor will be labouring to accelerate spurred on by the timing advance cranked up whilst friction and aerodynamic drag are limiting its speed. The result is heat.

As far as I know the straight is never going to be a steady state for serious racers with access to timing boost. If they have the ability to add more timing at higher rpm's to accelerate the whole length of the straight right until the braking point to go that much faster than the other guy and make a couple car lengths they will take the extra speed and heat any day. It would take a crazy long straight for the drive train and air drag to put the car into a steady state, and at that point if you backed off the timing you would slow the car down.

In your example with the offroad car climbing a hill if you indeed hit the ramp at the right RPM/max torque, indeed you can keep at constant RPM but that means you will climb at constant speed. This does not contradict my statement that peak torque changes with timing. In my hypothesis, you could be climbing the same hill at different RPM/torque peak and hopefully at higher constant speed.

My statement with the uphill climb was to point out that there is no "ramp" needed where the esc takes into account the current flow or torque output when calculating the needed timing. I assumed that's what you meant by the timing ramp in lieu of the turbo ramp that is time based.
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Old 03-19-2010, 03:49 AM   #13413
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hey guys, has anyone used the data logger to measure the benefit of using comm drops, no other settings being changed, i want to try them in my redline 17.5 for more top speed
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Old 03-19-2010, 04:14 AM   #13414
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Linear as opposed to a curve. Tamiya used to have these little graphs on the back of black can boxes. And before you jump in and tell me they're not dyno data, I know but you get the idea.

True, most people want to accelerate all the way along the straight. Don't understand why. Ideally one should accelerate as quickly as possible and drive as much as possible at top speed. That's the quickest. Practically it is not always possible, I know, so everybody needs to find a compromise between their acceleration and the heat buildup.

From what I have seen, you don't need a long straight to top out. Just watch on youtube and you'll see. The recent ETS is a case in point, but others reinforce the observation, like TITC, etc. Most people top out halfway down the straight or earlier and hope the opponent can't go any faster (which most of the time with well matched cars is the case).

In my experience I have seen the fastest mod cars top out in the first third of the straight on one of our large tracks here (designed for fuel cars). That's about 10-12m or say 25m if we consider the sweeper leading into the main straight. Playing with my own car in front of my house, my car tops out very quickly (17.5 motor, 2s) and that's exactly what I want because I race on a small track. If I were accelerating all along, I would be lost behind the pack. This way, nobody can catch me. I have managed to tune the setup so I don't even have heat problems so I am quite happy.

Yes, I thought that would have been a misunderstanding.
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Old 03-19-2010, 06:03 AM   #13415
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Originally Posted by Krio View Post
I don't mean to single you out by quoting you, but I'm just making a point that seems to be overlooked by many newcomers to variable timing esc's like the RS.

There is an appropriate degree of timing for maximum torque at every rpm. Less timing at any rpm does not mean more torque. At 10k rpm you get more torque from 10 degrees of timing than you would from 0 degrees of timing. Do you get more torque from 20 degrees at 10k rpm? Maybe, but that is the point of testing. The whole game we are all playing with boost, turbo, start/end rpms, delay, and turbo ramp is to find what timing works best on our given motor for the most torque. (unless you are an offroader and are looking to control the power. lol)

In my mind the first manufacturer to dyno their own motors and find the perfect timing at every rpm and then provide ways to make their esc produce this timing map is the "first" winner in the esc arms race. Once all the esc manufacturers reach this point there will no longer be an esc race, but the first one to get there will be the best for a while. Obviously tekin is the closest and going through software updates to get to that point won't cost us beans. This would mean a timing map with more adjustable points besides "start and end" rpm is needed to more accurately replicate this "perfect" map as the timing demands for optimum performance are by no means linear. I'm hoping a future hotwire update looks something like this: A timing map with multiple rpm range settings. e.g. A start timing point starting at 0 going to a second rpm point where the esc adds "X" amount of timing over that rpm range. Then another timing ramp from the second rpm point to the third point adding "Y" amount of timing over that rpm range. Then another timing ramp from the second rpm point to a final rpm point where "Z" amount of timing is added over the that rpm range. Realistically, turbo is not needed other than "feel".
GM is doing this now with there timing.
They have 2 moments for timing coming in.
The Tekin has also a bit of this but than with the Turbo.
A wile a go I mailed Randy the same thing but he told me that it will be harder to get a good setup.
I can agree that many will have problems finding a good setup but I think that as you do what GM does and save some standard profiles were they can choose from without the need of adjusting it, than the beginner can start from there.
The ones that understand it better can fine tune there setup.
But still I think that variable timing is the best. Than the speedo looks what the best timing is ad that moment.
The BD has it and I must say the infield and the first meters out the corner are very good. Top speed is lower than the Tekin but this is just how much timing will be ad extra.

I'm think that the max is not reached for a wile and that you still can win a lot of power. Also with the motor.

I'm thinking of what you were talking about for a long time and I have some things that can work.
As you make the timing depending from rpm and power it needs to reach that RPM, than you have an optimal timing. When the motor has it heavy to reach a RPM, than it will lower the timing and as the motor starts accelerating faster, than you can ad timing. I don't now if the Advanced works this way with there timing but this way you can make it depending from the gearing witch speed you have.
The only thing I would ad is the amount of timing that will be ad.
An optimal timing with max power and that you can set the timing lower to make the car a bit slower.
1 disadvantage is, is that it is not the most optimal way. There is always a delay with the reaction to time the motor right. So I don't think that this will be the fastest way of timing but ad the moment it is the easiest way to do so.

The rpm windows were you can ad timing in I had in 3 rpm ranges.
But I'm also thinking of setting your own timing curve.

Set a start RPM and a End RPM and set that you get in the beginning each time 2 degrees of timing added and after a wile it will be go higher to 3 and 4 and so on. This way you have a same kind of idea of the option you mentioned only fine tuned.
Setting up will be harder but I think this is one of the options to optimize the power.

I hope it will be dry this Sunday.
Than I'm going to try the Tekin motor finally. It just arrived and I can't wait to try out the 13,5T from Tekin on the outdoor track.
I'm also interested to see how the Tekin will go against the GM.
I will finally drive against some good GM drivers.
Other speed controls I don't have to worry about because ad my club it's all Tekin, GM and the SPX.
The SPX is no match so the GM is the only speedo that will be my opponent.
The other Tekin drivers are also fast so it will be hard to reach the podium but it will be close races I think.
5 Tekin drivers 3 GM drivers and 2 SPX drivers that are competing this year from my club with the club races and than the drivers that come from other clubs. there are a few Mamba drivers but I don't now if they will come and race.
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Old 03-19-2010, 06:10 AM   #13416
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Originally Posted by Tamiyarchie View Post
hey guys, has anyone used the data logger to measure the benefit of using comm drops, no other settings being changed, i want to try them in my redline 17.5 for more top speed
Comm drops were a brush lubricant and will have absolutely no effect on brushless motors. Do NOT use them.
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Old 03-19-2010, 08:12 AM   #13417
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Originally Posted by defcone View Post
I tried searching this thread for 10.5 1/12th setup or starting points but to no avail, anyone got a setup with rollout they could give me for starters? I'm on a tight technical track around small to medium size high grip, around a 20 meter straight.

Thanks in advance.
It depends on the motor you're using really..

Mine (nosram x12) is as follows:
mm/rev: 55-58
boost: 30
turbo: 10
delay: 0.4
start rpm: 1500
end rpm: 7000
throttle profile: 4
drag: 6
brakes: 100
reverse: off
timing: 80 (in case there's a sensor problem)
motor timing: -10 insert
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Old 03-19-2010, 09:46 AM   #13418
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Originally Posted by mikky32 View Post
GM is doing this now with there timing.
They have 2 moments for timing coming in.
The Tekin has also a bit of this but than with the Turbo.
A wile a go I mailed Randy the same thing but he told me that it will be harder to get a good setup.
I can agree that many will have problems finding a good setup but I think that as you do what GM does and save some standard profiles were they can choose from without the need of adjusting it, than the beginner can start from there.
The ones that understand it better can fine tune there setup.
But still I think that variable timing is the best. Than the speedo looks what the best timing is ad that moment.
The BD has it and I must say the infield and the first meters out the corner are very good. Top speed is lower than the Tekin but this is just how much timing will be ad extra.

I'm think that the max is not reached for a wile and that you still can win a lot of power. Also with the motor.

I'm thinking of what you were talking about for a long time and I have some things that can work.
As you make the timing depending from rpm and power it needs to reach that RPM, than you have an optimal timing. When the motor has it heavy to reach a RPM, than it will lower the timing and as the motor starts accelerating faster, than you can ad timing. I don't now if the Advanced works this way with there timing but this way you can make it depending from the gearing witch speed you have.
The only thing I would ad is the amount of timing that will be ad.
An optimal timing with max power and that you can set the timing lower to make the car a bit slower.
1 disadvantage is, is that it is not the most optimal way. There is always a delay with the reaction to time the motor right. So I don't think that this will be the fastest way of timing but ad the moment it is the easiest way to do so.

The rpm windows were you can ad timing in I had in 3 rpm ranges.
But I'm also thinking of setting your own timing curve.

Set a start RPM and a End RPM and set that you get in the beginning each time 2 degrees of timing added and after a wile it will be go higher to 3 and 4 and so on. This way you have a same kind of idea of the option you mentioned only fine tuned.
Setting up will be harder but I think this is one of the options to optimize the power.

I hope it will be dry this Sunday.
Than I'm going to try the Tekin motor finally. It just arrived and I can't wait to try out the 13,5T from Tekin on the outdoor track.
I'm also interested to see how the Tekin will go against the GM.
I will finally drive against some good GM drivers.
Other speed controls I don't have to worry about because ad my club it's all Tekin, GM and the SPX.
The SPX is no match so the GM is the only speedo that will be my opponent.
The other Tekin drivers are also fast so it will be hard to reach the podium but it will be close races I think.
5 Tekin drivers 3 GM drivers and 2 SPX drivers that are competing this year from my club with the club races and than the drivers that come from other clubs. there are a few Mamba drivers but I don't now if they will come and race.
jesus guy's you are getting TOO DEEEP for me

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Old 03-19-2010, 10:16 AM   #13419
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Default Narrow vs. Wide Boost RPM Range - Pros & Cons

I'd like to see some feedback on running a narrow vs. wide RPM range on the boost setting. I've read a lot of posts regarding both and they seem to contradict.

Please post your experiences with both narrow and wide RPM boost settings and the results. (Motor Temps, Lap Times, Motor Proformance, Roll-out Changes)

I just don't get enough track time to work much with this setting so your feedback would be appreciated.
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Old 03-19-2010, 10:50 AM   #13420
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Originally Posted by Swen View Post
Comm drops were a brush lubricant and will have absolutely no effect on brushless motors. Do NOT use them.
I have actually had good success with com drops in brushless 17.5. I have been using Zuback blue formula. A couple of minutes before you're race add 10 to 15 drops on the endbell bearing. It will soak into the motor.

You will notice a good 0.2 per lap.
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:01 AM   #13421
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Originally Posted by sidecarphil1 View Post
jesus guy's you are getting TOO DEEEP for me

I JUST WANNA GO FAST
Me to but I like it how it works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RacinJ View Post
I'd like to see some feedback on running a narrow vs. wide RPM range on the boost setting. I've read a lot of posts regarding both and they seem to contradict.

Please post your experiences with both narrow and wide RPM boost settings and the results. (Motor Temps, Lap Times, Motor Proformance, Roll-out Changes)

I just don't get enough track time to work much with this setting so your feedback would be appreciated.
Both things can be true.
With a narrow RPM you can have a slow acceleration and with a wide range you can have a better acceleration.

This depends on a few things.
Motor timing
Gearing
Start RPM
Turbo delay

Normally you have with a narrow RPM the best acceleration and some more motor head.
The wider RPM will give you more Torque and a smoother acceleration.
But when you let the timing come in to early, than you can have with a narrow RPM range a terrible acceleration. Also as the Turbo comes in when the Boost comes in. Than you have to much timing.

As you have a wider RPM range and the Turbo comes on the same moment in, than you keep a better acceleration because the total timing in the begin is lower. This gives the feeling that your car accelerates better but as you had your RPM range on the right moment and the Turbo after that the Boost came in, than the Narrow window will give you more acceleration.

What Krio mentioned is also a thing why it can make a narrow RPM range to accelerate slower than a wider rpm range.
As you set your start RPM very low, and you have a narrow RPM range, than the timing feels like if you drive away in the 4th gear with your car.
As you than set the end RPM higher, then comes in less Boost in the beginning and the acceleration will improve.
Wile as you set the RPM range on a higher start RPM, you also get a better acceleration.
The higher the RPM the more timing you can ad.
So when you have a RPM range of 2000 - 30000. And the Turbo kicks in around the 25000 than the Boost is still added but the motor can handle it better than when you let it kick in ad 2000 RPM.
(The Turbo is on a delay and can't be set by RPM. it's just an example)

All of those factors can make your acceleration good or bad.
As you want a good acceleration, set the start RPM higher, use a narrow RPM range, don't let the Turbo kick in to early.
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:03 AM   #13422
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Originally Posted by march to my own View Post
I have actually had good success with com drops in brushless 17.5. I have been using Zuback blue formula. A couple of minutes before you're race add 10 to 15 drops on the endbell bearing. It will soak into the motor.

You will notice a good 0.2 per lap.
Strange because it will work normally only with brushes. it is for the contact between the brushes and the rotor.

I don't now what it can do on the sensor of your motor.
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:22 AM   #13423
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Originally Posted by niznai View Post
Yes, and yes. I need to think a bit more about all this. The problem is that most people try to convince you that the torque output of electric motors is linear (as opposed to petrol engines). If the motor had fixed timing, I would agree. We are however playing with timing on the fly and that changes the equation in my opinion. I am not aware of any serious experiments (be it under lab conditions, not necessarily in the real world) to demonstrate either way, so I am struggling a bit to agree.
In theory a motor with fixed timing does have a linear torque curve. In practice however efficiency will have a significant impact on the torque curve. In theory peak torque is at stall (zero) rpm but in reality the motor is so inefficient at this point that torque is reduced.

I would bet that a true 3d map can be done but it's unlikely to come for some time. There is also a lot more to power than just timing.
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Old 03-19-2010, 12:06 PM   #13424
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Originally Posted by Fred_B View Post
In theory a motor with fixed timing does have a linear torque curve. In practice however efficiency will have a significant impact on the torque curve. In theory peak torque is at stall (zero) rpm but in reality the motor is so inefficient at this point that torque is reduced.

I would bet that a true 3d map can be done but it's unlikely to come for some time. There is also a lot more to power than just timing.
Absolutely. That's why I want such a map.

That line actually begins with a very abrupt (almost instant) rise from zero to maximum. I am talking in a torque vs RPM space. After reaching the peak, it descends as RPM increase. This is where the fun starts as theory predicts the line descends, oh well, like a line, in a linear fashion (duh). Reality is different, but theory needs a lot of data to predict exactly what happens.

And indeed efficiency (and load too, I am sure) has an impact on torque, that's why I bang on and get all sorts of people saying all sorts of things. I have no proof other than basic physics principles. Real torque curves for electric motors support my statements (as well as my personal experience) however.

Form this point moving on to variable timing motors I am sure things get a lot more complicated, but I have never seen any data on this. I agree this is best presented in a 3d space, but I would settle for a combination of two relevant 2d diagrams.

About power, I believe so too. But before someone with the resources takes on the task of investigating these ideas and produce the diagrams we will not have the power to use the technology to its full potential.
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Old 03-19-2010, 12:11 PM   #13425
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Absolutely. That's why I want such a map.

That line actually begins with a very abrupt (almost instant) rise from zero to maximum. I am talkng in a torque vs RPM space. After reaching the peak, it descends as RPM increase. This is where the fun starts as theory predicts the line descends, oh well, like a line, in a linear fashion (duh). Reality is different, but theory needs a lot of data to predict exactly what happens.

And indeed efficiency (and load too, I am sure) has an impact on torque, that's why I bang on and get all sorts of people saying all sorts of things. I have no proof other than basic phisycs principles. Real torque curves for electric motors support my statements (as well as my personal experience) however.

Form this point moving on to variable timing motors I am sure things get a lot more complicated, but I have never seen any data on this. I agree this is best presented in a 3d space, but I would settle for a combination of two relevant 2d diagrams.

About power, I believe so too. But before someone with the resources takes on the task of investigating these ideas and produce the diagrams we will not have the power to use the technology to its full potential.
I'll finish this comment later, but for the last time stop saying the load has an impact on torque. Its grammatically, mathematically, and physically not correct.
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