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Old 03-18-2010, 07:03 PM   #13396
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Originally Posted by goBezerk View Post
OK, just my 2 cents...I don't have a data logger yet, but my experience so far...

I've experimented with most of the theories so far, this is with a 10.5t TC and the wide RPM range is the key to unlocking the smoothest longest powerband you can get. I've tried short rpm ranges, turbo first then followed with boost, gearing up, gearing down, low start rpm and high start rpm, 0 delay on turbo, 0 - 10 on the motor (10.5t V3) etc.

My best setup to date -
FDR - 7.04
Endbell - 5 deg
DB - 0
Brake - 100 on esc, 80 on transmitter
Neutral - 10
Throttle - 3
VCO - 7.62
Timing - 55
Turbo - 15
Delay - 0.4
Ramp - 2
Start - 59**
End - 30000

As we have a kink in our main straight and a sweeper before it, the turbo could easily kick in part way through the sweeper and unsettle the car, you would then button off and have to get back on it and loose speed down the straight. The delay of 0.4 allowed the motor to get up to speed and the ramp of 2 made the transition seamless...the endbell timing on the V3 as mikky32 says is perfect on 5, this "seems" the true zero and the most torque.

Every time I've tried adding punch via timing via the esc it is always too much at the wrong time...I liken it to short shifting in a car, just depends on for which gear, yes 1st gear it goes like a rocket, you short shift to top gear, it lags and then can't pull any current until the motor hits its sweet spot again and rockets off again.

Just remember, timing is not torque!!! Timing can only be added when the torque is dropping off. Get the first part right with motor timing and gearing and use the timing to rocket it down the rest of the track I also find when my setup is getting close to linear acceleration the motor temp comes back into the sweet 60 - 65c range, so no chance of fade as an added bonus and extra play time when racing is over. Now I'll go back into my box
Don't know what speeds your getting at the apex of the tightest corners but try increasing the start rpm to 11,000 or even higher.

5000rpm is only around 6mph, your corners will be faster than you think, and definitely faster than that.

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Old 03-18-2010, 07:23 PM   #13397
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Don't know what speeds your getting at the apex of the tightest corners but try increasing the start rpm to 11,000 or even higher.

5000rpm is only around 6mph, your corners will be faster than you think, and definitely faster than that.

Skiddins
We have a few 180 degree hairpins and I did try 9000+ start rpms and it wasn't as snappy getting back up to speed, had a little lag and then you saw the timing start to feed in. For me, getting the motor initial timing was important for low speed punch.
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Old 03-18-2010, 07:42 PM   #13398
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Originally Posted by Skiddins View Post
Don't know what speeds your getting at the apex of the tightest corners but try increasing the start rpm to 11,000 or even higher.

5000rpm is only around 6mph, your corners will be faster than you think, and definitely faster than that.

Skiddins
I don't mean to single you out by quoting you, but I'm just making a point that seems to be overlooked by many newcomers to variable timing esc's like the RS.

There is an appropriate degree of timing for maximum torque at every rpm. Less timing at any rpm does not mean more torque. At 10k rpm you get more torque from 10 degrees of timing than you would from 0 degrees of timing. Do you get more torque from 20 degrees at 10k rpm? Maybe, but that is the point of testing. The whole game we are all playing with boost, turbo, start/end rpms, delay, and turbo ramp is to find what timing works best on our given motor for the most torque. (unless you are an offroader and are looking to control the power. lol)

In my mind the first manufacturer to dyno their own motors and find the perfect timing at every rpm and then provide ways to make their esc produce this timing map is the "first" winner in the esc arms race. Once all the esc manufacturers reach this point there will no longer be an esc race, but the first one to get there will be the best for a while. Obviously tekin is the closest and going through software updates to get to that point won't cost us beans. This would mean a timing map with more adjustable points besides "start and end" rpm is needed to more accurately replicate this "perfect" map as the timing demands for optimum performance are by no means linear. I'm hoping a future hotwire update looks something like this: A timing map with multiple rpm range settings. e.g. A start timing point starting at 0 going to a second rpm point where the esc adds "X" amount of timing over that rpm range. Then another timing ramp from the second rpm point to the third point adding "Y" amount of timing over that rpm range. Then another timing ramp from the second rpm point to a final rpm point where "Z" amount of timing is added over the that rpm range. Realistically, turbo is not needed other than "feel".
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Old 03-18-2010, 08:04 PM   #13399
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I don't mean to single you out by quoting you, but I'm just making a point that seems to be overlooked by many newcomers to variable timing esc's like the RS.

There is an appropriate degree of timing for maximum torque at every rpm. Less timing at any rpm does not mean more torque. At 10k rpm you get more torque from 10 degrees of timing than you would from 0 degrees of timing. Do you get more torque from 20 degrees at 10k rpm? Maybe, but that is the point of testing. The whole game we are all playing with boost, turbo, start/end rpms, delay, and turbo ramp is to find what timing works best on our given motor for the most torque. (unless you are an offroader and are looking to control the power. lol)

In my mind the first manufacturer to dyno their own motors and find the perfect timing at every rpm and then provide ways to make their esc produce this timing map is the "first" winner in the esc arms race. Once all the esc manufacturers reach this point there will no longer be an esc race, but the first one to get there will be the best for a while. Obviously tekin is the closest and going through software updates to get to that point won't cost us beans. This would mean a timing map with more adjustable points besides "start and end" rpm is needed to more accurately replicate this "perfect" map as the timing demands for optimum performance are by no means linear. I'm hoping a future hotwire update looks something like this: A timing map with multiple rpm range settings. e.g. A start timing point starting at 0 going to a second rpm point where the esc adds "X" amount of timing over that rpm range. Then another timing ramp from the second rpm point to the third point adding "Y" amount of timing over that rpm range. Then another timing ramp from the second rpm point to a final rpm point where "Z" amount of timing is added over the that rpm range. Realistically, turbo is not needed other than "feel".
Couldn't agree more The notion of "seeing the turbo kick in" is a false sense IMHO, if it was timed correctly you shouldn't see it! It would a) run cooler because the torque and timing have been optimized b) would accelerate from standstill to top speed seamlessly, that was my whole point by my original post Acceleration from all speeds should be considered, whether it be out of a sweeper, off the line or exiting a tight turnaround...

Looking forward to seeing the next Tekin evolution, now to buy the data logger to better fine tune it

Now the next question is, are the batteries keeping up with the increased consistent motor draw???
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Old 03-18-2010, 09:13 PM   #13400
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Default ESC SET UP

I have been told about a million different things about how everything works together...does it all work as follows..
Turbo has nothing to do with rpm, it has everything to do with ramp and delay, the turbo is engaged when full throttle is engaged then after the delay...

rpms affect how your timing kicks in and how much at one time...wider range = smoother acceleration..shorter range = harder acceleration..motor timing is also added in..

is that correct..if not let me know asap..

also...when you begin to tune the esc do you turn off all timing and turbo and concentrate on motor and gearing until you get the rip you want in the infield>>>>someone inform me if i am wrong...
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Old 03-18-2010, 09:18 PM   #13401
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Originally Posted by obi wun View Post
I have been told about a million different things about how everything works together...does it all work as follows..
Turbo has nothing to do with rpm, it has everything to do with ramp and delay, the turbo is engaged when full throttle is engaged then after the delay...

rpms affect how your timing kicks in and how much at one time...wider range = smoother acceleration..shorter range = harder acceleration..motor timing is also added in..

is that correct..if not let me know asap..

also...when you begin to tune the esc do you turn off all timing and turbo and concentrate on motor and gearing until you get the rip you want in the infield>>>>someone inform me if i am wrong...
Unfortunately there is more than one way to attack the timing vs gearing scheme. Your best bet for a quick setup is to pick a generic setting for your turn motor from the tekin site and then strictly focus on gearing. Once you find the best gearing for your track procede to fine tune where the timing kicks in.

Your other generalities are pretty much right.
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Old 03-18-2010, 09:18 PM   #13402
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I tried searching this thread for 10.5 1/12th setup or starting points but to no avail, anyone got a setup with rollout they could give me for starters? I'm on a tight technical track around small to medium size high grip, around a 20 meter straight.

Thanks in advance.
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Old 03-18-2010, 09:33 PM   #13403
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Originally Posted by Krio View Post
I don't mean to single you out by quoting you, but I'm just making a point that seems to be overlooked by many newcomers to variable timing esc's like the RS.

There is an appropriate degree of timing for maximum torque at every rpm. Less timing at any rpm does not mean more torque. At 10k rpm you get more torque from 10 degrees of timing than you would from 0 degrees of timing. Do you get more torque from 20 degrees at 10k rpm? Maybe, but that is the point of testing. The whole game we are all playing with boost, turbo, start/end rpms, delay, and turbo ramp is to find what timing works best on our given motor for the most torque. (unless you are an offroader and are looking to control the power. lol)

In my mind the first manufacturer to dyno their own motors and find the perfect timing at every rpm and then provide ways to make their esc produce this timing map is the "first" winner in the esc arms race. Once all the esc manufacturers reach this point there will no longer be an esc race, but the first one to get there will be the best for a while. Obviously tekin is the closest and going through software updates to get to that point won't cost us beans. This would mean a timing map with more adjustable points besides "start and end" rpm is needed to more accurately replicate this "perfect" map as the timing demands for optimum performance are by no means linear. I'm hoping a future hotwire update looks something like this: A timing map with multiple rpm range settings. e.g. A start timing point starting at 0 going to a second rpm point where the esc adds "X" amount of timing over that rpm range. Then another timing ramp from the second rpm point to the third point adding "Y" amount of timing over that rpm range. Then another timing ramp from the second rpm point to a final rpm point where "Z" amount of timing is added over the that rpm range. Realistically, turbo is not needed other than "feel".
And again, all that map will change for different loads.

That is exactly why I have been banging on like a broken record for the last year that we need to have some dyno sheets from the manufacturers if we are to make the most of the motors.

However, a torque vs RPM vs timing curve is very difficult to produce (basically you need to ge through every timing setting at all RPMs and vary load at the same time, so it's indeed a three dimensional space very difficult to map), which is why I would settle for a torque vs RPM map ACCOMPANIED by efficiency vs RPM. These are easy, and as a pair they are a very good proxy for the one we need.
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Old 03-18-2010, 09:43 PM   #13404
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And again, all that map will change for different loads.

That is exactly why I have been banging on like a broken record for the last year that we need to have some dyno sheets from the manufacturers if we are to make the most of the motors.

However, a torque vs RPM vs timing curve is very difficult to produce (basically you need to ge through every timing setting at all RPMs and vary load at the same time, so it's indeed a three dimensional space very difficult to map), which is why I would settle for a torque vs RPM map ACCOMPANIED by efficiency vs RPM. These are easy, and as a pair they are a very good proxy for the one we need.
The map does not change for different loads when all you want is maximum torque. You need a 3d map for maximum torque and maximum efficiency which stock racers could care less about with our almighty 5000 mah lipos.
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Old 03-18-2010, 09:49 PM   #13405
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Default Tekin rs and Jr xs3 radio

Anyone with a Jr xs3 radio having problems using it with the tekin rs? Can anyone help?
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Old 03-18-2010, 11:36 PM   #13406
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The map does not change for different loads when all you want is maximum torque. You need a 3d map for maximum torque and maximum efficiency which stock racers could care less about with our almighty 5000 mah lipos.
True, load does not impact where maximum torque is. Load however will change how quickly you can change timing whilst keeping the motor at max torque. That's timing ramp.

Efficiency is important not because you run out of charge but because you overheat motors/electronics. Power consumed may go up and down or do whatever, if you're not running at best efficiency, some part of that is going to be just heat and what you want is to minimise it to avoid overheating your motor/ESC.

The way I see it is you want to use max torque while accelerating and hit top speed at maximum efficiency.
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Old 03-19-2010, 12:04 AM   #13407
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can you guys start a new thread called
"tekin for geeks"

and leave this thread for people who understand with minimal IQ
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Old 03-19-2010, 12:33 AM   #13408
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True, load does not impact where maximum torque is. Load however will change how quickly you can change timing whilst keeping the motor at max torque. That's timing ramp.

Efficiency is important not because you run out of charge but because you overheat motors/electronics. Power consumed may go up and down or do whatever, if you're not running at best efficiency, some part of that is going to be just heat and what you want is to minimise it to avoid overheating your motor/ESC.

The way I see it is you want to use max torque while accelerating and hit top speed at maximum efficiency.
You edited your post so I had to redo everything I was typing. lol

Load changes how quickly the rpm changes, but has no effect on the optimum timing. Using an offroad example, say you have a big elevation change on the track (a hill climb of sorts) and the motor is at 10k rpm and the esc is at 30 degrees which provides maximum torque at 10k. Now assume the torque output matches the force required to climb said hill. The rpm does not change, but neither does the timing as the esc only cares about the rpm. You are staying at the optimum timing whether or not the esc knows the load on the motor.

Don't take the the wrong way, but reading most of your previous posts makes me wonder if you aren't mixing in some combustion torque vs efficiency ideas into your throught process on the electrical side...

The only time anyone would benefit from a change in timing to maximize efficiency is at a steady state, such as a sweeper or chicane. Simplifying the throttle finger of any given racer at any other time you either want max torque or maximum braking force. If you were to try and retard (or advance) the timing to a theoretical max efficiency you would be altering the torque vs current characteristic at that rpm. If you retarded the timing you would lose torque and either the driver or the esc would have to provide more "throttle" to make up for it. Now, applying more throttle doesn't mean more current would be flowing as the retarded timing would put the back emf at a higher value. However, what I consider more important to efficiency is something you need to consider: the "feel". Of course the esc could automatically apply more "throttle" to make up for the loss and the driver would be non the wiser. The problem is that the esc can't know what throttle it needs to apply without either an endless list of sensors or knowing the future.
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Old 03-19-2010, 01:31 AM   #13409
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can you guys start a new thread called
"tekin for geeks"

and leave this thread for people who understand with minimal IQ
Good one Al, now go back to bed
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Old 03-19-2010, 01:35 AM   #13410
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Originally Posted by hacker View Post
can you guys start a new thread called
"tekin for geeks"

and leave this thread for people who understand with minimal IQ
LOL

Well, you can just cheat and wait till our arguments are over in a page or two to get the answers.
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