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Old 01-03-2010, 08:52 PM   #9871
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SteveL
how much timing is on the motor.if you cooked a motor i would start by taking out turbo
Trinity Dou 1 with the screws in the middle position. Not sure what that means in degrees.
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Old 01-03-2010, 08:52 PM   #9872
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did you run vegas 1 with the 11.5
sorry vegas 1 is v203? i am running v203 new 1 with rpm
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Old 01-03-2010, 08:53 PM   #9873
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so it's a little glitch? if we simply use .1 it wont engage till after end rpm is reached + .1 but with 0 it just jumps to adding turbo regardless of rpm?
No, the delay is strictly from the instant you grab full throttle.
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Old 01-03-2010, 08:54 PM   #9874
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Originally Posted by SteveL View Post
FIrst day results were mixed. Car was stupid fast using the follwoing set up:

Drag Brake - 10
Brake Strength - 100
Throttle pofile - 5
Boost - 50
Turbo - 10
Turbo delay - .2
Ramp - 3
Start rpm - 1437
End rpm - 4000
Motor timing - middle position on a Duo 1 Trinity
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Quick answer - too much boost in too short of a timespan. I'm assuming your setup is being used for 1/12 scale, and after working with a few of my fellow racers we've found that you don't need to use as much timing boost or turbo boost with the new software. We've experimented with 35-45 timing boost levels, while using turbo levels in the 6-10 range. Doing so, we found our gearing/rollout being very close to what we used with the V2.00 software. I left the turbo delay @ .7 -.8, since I was looking for the turbo to be used STRICTLY on the long back straight. Otherwise, the new software allows for you to go faster without overtaxing the motor using excessive turbo boost.

As for the timing boost window (start/end RPM), I'd start it at a higher setting (2500 rpm start, top it @ 5000-5500) and work on the chassis to maintain the corner speed necessary to keep the RPM window valid. It seems that a 3000 RPM window kept in this range will help punch out of the corners while keeping the motor cool. Using 76mm of rollout on a 100x40 track, I didn't see temps climb past 115 deg. F all day using settings in this range, but had more than enough speed. I'd also back off on the throttle profile a bit (I used profile 3) to allow for driving the car harder without relying on the powertrain to go faster. Using these conservative settings, I managed to drop .3/.4 per lap. But more importantly, the dropoff @ the end of 8 minutes was far less than when I used V2.00. Gear conservatively to start, and work your way up as you test...
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Old 01-03-2010, 08:58 PM   #9875
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so it's a little glitch? if we simply use .1 it wont engage till after end rpm is reached + .1 but with 0 it just jumps to adding turbo regardless of rpm?
Turbo hasn't changed. After your time delay at full throttle, turbo is added. End of story.

The only thing changed in version 203 is how and how fast timing boost is added.
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Old 01-03-2010, 09:02 PM   #9876
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Turbo hasn't changed. After your time delay at full throttle, turbo is added. End of story.

The only thing changed in version 203 is how and how fast timing boost is added.
got it now..
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Old 01-03-2010, 09:04 PM   #9877
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All I know is today the car was violent. Thats all I can really say about the power that the new sw has given me.
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Old 01-03-2010, 09:04 PM   #9878
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Actually turbo is completely seperate from boost and has nothing to do with rpm. Turbo can actually be engaged and advance the timing before boost with a 0 delay. The Hotwire was not suppose to go below .3sec in the release version..... you know what happens when you hurry.

With turbo delay at 0sec and the ramp rate at 3x the unit could add significant timing advance before the motor is turning fast enough to take it.

In most applications we do not think Turbo is really needed. Turbo really is meant for very short uses and only when the motor is fully spooled out and you have room to squeeze just a little more. If you had NOS in your car you would not drive around holding the button

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Thanks for the clarification. I edited my post to avoid confusion.
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Old 01-03-2010, 09:04 PM   #9879
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so it's a little glitch? if we simply use .1 it wont engage till after end rpm is reached + .1 but with 0 it just jumps to adding turbo regardless of rpm?
My understanding is that it is not RPM but when you peg your throttle trigger at full throttle.

So if this is right then Turbo could engage before you reach your Timing RPM max. If so then the trick would be to get the Turbo to engage right when you hit your max Timing RPM. We were running 10k max RPM with 17.5 in TC today and the cars were balistic. I'm thinking that may be to high of an end RPM though as my car seemed to really pick up almost at the end of the straight. So then the question I have is how do I know I have the end RPM set right and not too high or low?
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Old 01-03-2010, 09:07 PM   #9880
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sorry vegas 1 is v203? i am running v203 new 1 with rpm
vegas1.0 is 200 vegas 2.0 is 203.did you run 200 before with the 11.5,sorry my head is going 100mph and typing wasn't
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Old 01-03-2010, 09:23 PM   #9881
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FIrst day results were mixed. Car was stupid fast using the follwoing set up:

Drag Brake - 10
Brake Strength - 100
Throttle pofile - 5
Boost - 50
Turbo - 10
Turbo delay - .2
Ramp - 3
Start rpm - 1437
End rpm - 4000
Motor timing - middle position on a Duo 1 Trinity

Roll out was 64.3mm - 42 tire with 78/38 Track is 66' x 36' and pretty open. 8.5 second fast lap time.

Easily .3 sec per lap faster than I have been able to do before but there is a problem. First off, I tested a few different settings and gear ratios early in the day and checked the temp after about 2 minutes each time. Started the morning off with around 140* which I thought would be too hot so I geared down each time until I got to the above roll out. Temp was actually going up each time I went down a tooth but I ran out of practice time and had to run this gearing in the first qualifier.

At the 7 minute mark, the car just stopped and then started to smoke. Yep, burnt Drew Ellis's On Road Nat's motor to the ground. Later in the day I pulled the battery out only to find that the three motor wires that run under the pack, (Yes I run a t-bar with the pack going over the top) had melted a groove in the 1s plastic hard case. When I pulled the car off the track after finding the motor smoking I noticed that every piece of metal in the rear pod including the screws that hold on the top plate were blisteringly hot.

Pulled out the motor and replaced it with a Hacker 13.5 that I had run before and everything went back to normal except for the fact that it took almost 4700mah to recharge the pack after the melt down. Ran the last qualifier finding out that the Hacker needs more boost to be as fast as the Duo.

Question is, was it the motor that caused the melt down or esc set up or gearing? (Drew says Tekin owes him a new motor.) It was odd that the temp kept going up as I geared down, but one guy at the track says that brushless can get hot if they are under geared just as easily as being over geared. Is this correct?

All I know is that the new software is seriously faster than the old and I will have fun trying to find the sweet spot for the new motor than I'm ordering tomorrow morning. (sorry Drew)

And to top off the day, my old Turbo 30 shot craps and fried my receiver pack right before the main. Not a good day.

Any feedback would be appreciated as to what could be the cause for the melting motor.
Although that is a pretty aggressive setup for a 13.5 it sounds like the motor was just failing. Maybe Drew pushed it a little hard at the On Road Nats? Nah Drew would not do that would he? Yes BL motors can get hotter when under geared, but until you are down on speed and hitting max rpms all over the track you should not see it. Under geared can cause the motor to run hotter, but not hot enough to burn up usually. This sounds like a catastrophic failure due to a winding short or weak rotor. Since it got hotter each run it really sounds like it was just headed down when you started.

Just in case please make sure you really have 203 in the unit. Make sure is says 203 in the current version box in the hotwire when plugged in. That setup in version 200 would also cause what you are describing…. Ballistic for a few minutes and about 3 min temps start climbing fast and continue until meltdown. We do expect people to take some responsibility for checking motor temps, especially when trying new setups and pushing performance to the limits.

We would be happy to give Drew a nice new Tekin motor if he will race with it


Another non warranty issue is shown below

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Old 01-03-2010, 09:31 PM   #9882
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The new version has issue with some novak boosters, but so far has always worked when we put the cheap HK one or TQ one in the car so it must be something that it does not like about what the novak booster is supplying.

A note also is when using 203 swapping to duel mode always worked fine with a novak booster.. so it is something that happens with the sensored and the power provided by the novak.. Also a good note is not all novaks will not run 203 we had half that were fine and did not care and half that were picky.

Software worked very well and was easy to adjust much better for getting the sweet spot and getting the max power..
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Old 01-03-2010, 09:44 PM   #9883
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just an FYI, as posted the novak has a cut off at 3.3v. that is not a mystery. most electronics component fail to do what they say they will do at 3.3v. that is about as low as you can get for electronics. so if the other boosters are not shutting off because they have not cut off, they may not be working as they should at 3.3v. i guarantee you that the way a booster works it that it produces its rate output as long as you have more then 3.3v. so even if you dip below that and the circuit does not shut down, it is not producing the output that you are wanting for rx and servos.
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Old 01-03-2010, 09:49 PM   #9884
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2 days now on the new software with a novak booster with 0 problems.
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Old 01-03-2010, 10:01 PM   #9885
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Although that is a pretty aggressive setup for a 13.5 it sounds like the motor was just failing. Maybe Drew pushed it a little hard at the On Road Nats? Nah Drew would not do that would he? Yes BL motors can get hotter when under geared, but until you are down on speed and hitting max rpms all over the track you should not see it. Under geared can cause the motor to run hotter, but not hot enough to burn up usually. This sounds like a catastrophic failure due to a winding short or weak rotor. Since it got hotter each run it really sounds like it was just headed down when you started.

Just in case please make sure you really have 203 in the unit. Make sure is says 203 in the current version box in the hotwire when plugged in. That setup in version 200 would also cause what you are describing…. Ballistic for a few minutes and about 3 min temps start climbing fast and continue until meltdown. We do expect people to take some responsibility for checking motor temps, especially when trying new setups and pushing performance to the limits.

We would be happy to give Drew a nice new Tekin motor if he will race with it


Another non warranty issue is shown below

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Jim,

Ironically, that picture you posted is also from our track! We do tend to push the envelope a little with Drew pushing us to be as fast as him. I will ask him about running the motor but I know he just received a number of brown can motors from another California company.

Your diagnosis about the motor being on it's way out before I got it sounds exactly like I wanted to hear. I double checked and I do indeed have version 203 loaded so that eliminates that option. I will back off on on the settings and keep trying as this is way too much fun. I use to love working on brushed motors but this has taken place of that pretty easily! Thanks for the great software ..............and cleaner hands!
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