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Old 05-29-2009, 04:16 PM   #4006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tallyrc View Post
yea, it's in sensored only, but i'm still confused by all this mixed jargon on timing.. ok new settings

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In sensored only mode, max timing advance is 30, and is in a measurment of degrees. (however my broken version still reads either 45, or "GO")

I believe in dual mode, the slider is a % scale, 0-100.
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Old 05-29-2009, 05:03 PM   #4007
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Originally Posted by Cpt.America View Post
In sensored only mode, max timing advance is 30, and is in a measurment of degrees. (however my broken version still reads either 45, or "GO")

I believe in dual mode, the slider is a % scale, 0-100.

yes in dual mode it's in %
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Old 05-29-2009, 06:09 PM   #4008
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Default Timing Talk

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRF415boy View Post
1 - You're getting confused between Timing in sensored mode (0 - 100 scale) and Timing Boost in sensored mode (0 - 30 degrees).

2 - I think the new "scale" is to reflect the actual timing rather than just the timing added by the boost. As has been said numerous times, in sensored mode even if you set the timing on the motor's endbell to 0 degrees you'll actually have 15 degrees because of the way it works. So 30 degrees of boost and 0 motor timing is in fact 45 degrees of timing which is what is shown by the new hotwire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy_Pike View Post
I understand some of the issues. The biggest misconceptions come from when the uneducated talk about the specs.

Sensored only mode doesn't actually add 15 degrees. There is an "early read" that ALL motors have(not the esc). This was brought up only after the big T said that they were releasing a motor with this "issue" fixed inside it. When those motors started to fail everyone got confused. We added to to the public "knowledge" base so people understood that what they thought was only 45 could actually be as high as 60!

So, in general with spec motors try to stay with the total timing between motor and boost no higher than 40. Much higher than this can cause mis commutations and super high motor temps. Anytime you run super high timing your window for succesful gearing becomes very tight and failure possibility is high. You MUST have the right gearing before you reach for the higher timing setups.

The latest software 198 can be found on the site. I reccomend that everyone be running the latest. The team has done exhaustive testing with trap guns and tracks of all sizes and has found that 189 vs. 194 vs. 198 results with the same speeds when setup in the same fashion. 198 has the latest updates for RS, R1, Fxr, B1r,etc.

The corrected version of 198 that has the 1s check box glitch fix will be out shortly:

www.teamtekin.com/hotwire.html
(1) Above quote from Randy Pike discusses the 15 degree confusion.

(2) The TEKIN website also states the following under the "Motor Hints" section:
"If Sensored only mode is selected using the HotWire, the Timing Advance value in the HotWire is ignored by the speed control, it only uses the timing on the motor."

Any comments ??
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Old 05-29-2009, 07:44 PM   #4009
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That was for earlier versions of the software and probably just hasn't been updated because Tekin has been so busy responding to our needs
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Old 05-29-2009, 08:07 PM   #4010
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Default More Timing

Quote:
Originally Posted by InspGadgt View Post
That was for earlier versions of the software and probably just hasn't been updated because Tekin has been so busy responding to our needs
(1) In DualMode the ESC switches from SensoredState to SensorlessState once the car is moving. In SensoredOnlyMode, the ESC is always in SensoredState.

(2) What are the advantages & disadvantages between DualMode and SensoredOnlyMode?

(3) Is exactly the same timing advance algorithm used in DualMode and SensoredOnlyMode (a question for Mr Tekin I guess)?

Cheers
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Old 05-29-2009, 08:21 PM   #4011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmo1974 View Post
(1)
(2) The TEKIN website also states the following under the "Motor Hints" section:
"If Sensored only mode is selected using the HotWire, the Timing Advance value in the HotWire is ignored by the speed control, it only uses the timing on the motor."

Any comments ??
so i'm not actually doing anything when i adjust the "timing boost" slider if i am in sensored only mode as recomended for my motor?

am i the only one that thinks this is completely convoluted?

why cant "timing advance" or "timing boost" actually be a directly corelated value?
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Old 05-29-2009, 09:59 PM   #4012
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Ok to clear some things up.

Dual mode with the RS or RX8 for that matter is a sensored start and continued sensorless drive. Once we KNOW the rotor position we're in dual mode. Sensors are not used for the timing at all. Timing can be adjusted from 0 to 100 100 being 30 degrees max. The timing advance bar is a percentage of 30. SO 50 on the bar is 15 degrees for example. You can see this on the RS led array, the last 3 lights that show the sensors will turn off. Then come back as the car is stopped. Motor timing has no affect in this mode.


Sensored only mode is just that. We are always using the sensors for any and all functions. For timing, rotor postion,etc. Timing in this mode is based soley off the sensor feedback. Remember though that in this mode motor timing has an affect on overall timing. In sensored only mode starting with 189 software you have the option of "boost" timing. This is added timing via the esc along with motor timing to attain more overall timing. So:

Motor timing + Timing Boost + Early read(built into all motors) = Total Timing

In general early read is considered to be about 15 since that is an average between manufacturers.

We do realize that this can be overwhelming a times. However when setup properly the Tekin RS is in a class all it's own. Never could you adjust a speed controller to fit your personal driving style and ANY track around.

We are working on a new team page that has the teams latest setups in pdf format for easy download.
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Old 05-29-2009, 10:38 PM   #4013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy_Pike View Post
Ok to clear some things up.

Dual mode with the RS or RX8 for that matter is a sensored start and continued sensorless drive. Once we KNOW the rotor position we're in dual mode. Sensors are not used for the timing at all. Timing can be adjusted from 0 to 100 100 being 30 degrees max. The timing advance bar is a percentage of 30. SO 50 on the bar is 15 degrees for example. You can see this on the RS led array, the last 3 lights that show the sensors will turn off. Then come back as the car is stopped. Motor timing has no affect in this mode.


Sensored only mode is just that. We are always using the sensors for any and all functions. For timing, rotor postion,etc. Timing in this mode is based soley off the sensor feedback. Remember though that in this mode motor timing has an affect on overall timing. In sensored only mode starting with 189 software you have the option of "boost" timing. This is added timing via the esc along with motor timing to attain more overall timing. So:

Motor timing + Timing Boost + Early read(built into all motors) = Total Timing

In general early read is considered to be about 15 since that is an average between manufacturers.

We do realize that this can be overwhelming a times. However when setup properly the Tekin RS is in a class all it's own. Never could you adjust a speed controller to fit your personal driving style and ANY track around.

We are working on a new team page that has the teams latest setups in pdf format for easy download.
(1) Your description is interesting but only highlights the need for a single description on the Tekin website. I posted a description of how I thought the ESC algorithm worked back on page 251, and it is does not agree what you have said above. No one corrected what I had posted, and I know that other people have read it because they have spoken to me personally.

(2) OK. So lets see if I have this correct.

(2a) In the DualMode, SensorlessState, motor timing is FIXED (just like a brushed motor), and set at the user TimingAdvanceSetting.
The user TimingAdvanceSetting varies from 0 to 100% (of 30 degrees).
TotalTiming = user TimingAdvanceSetting (motor timing has no effect).

(2b) In the SensoredMode, motor timing is varied by the ESC firmware algorithm, with the maximum firmware advance set by the user TimingBoostSetting.
TotalTiming = MotorEndbellTiming + TimingBoostSetting.
The user TimingBoostSetting varies from 0 to 30 degrees.
The TotalTiming value should be from 0 to 40 degrees (for safe operation).
The EarlyRead value is an internal mechanism and does not factor into the user's perspective of the TotalTiming value range above (0-40), or that discussed in any of the Tekin posts on this thread.

Can Mr Tekin please confirm or otherwise
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Last edited by cosmo1974; 05-29-2009 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 05-30-2009, 12:36 AM   #4014
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Not quite right with dual mode, it only uses motor timing at first, then turns motor timing off when it goes into sensorless and uses esc timing
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Old 05-30-2009, 12:50 AM   #4015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrislow View Post
Not quite right with dual mode, it only uses motor timing at first, then turns motor timing off when it goes into sensorless and uses esc timing
(1) I deliberately did not mention the DualMode, SensoredState.
There is a state transition which I will describe in my updated version of the algorithm description on page 251.

(2) But first I'd like to get Mr Tekin's blessing on my current attempt.

Thanks
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Old 05-30-2009, 03:04 AM   #4016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmo1974 View Post
(1) I deliberately did not mention the DualMode, SensoredState.
There is a state transition which I will describe in my updated version of the algorithm description on page 251.

(2) But first I'd like to get Mr Tekin's blessing on my current attempt.

Thanks
Hi all,
No corrections received against my previous post, therefore its time to update the algorithm originally posted on page 251.

TEKIN Website Input To The ESC Algorithm Description
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TEKIN website states the following under the "Motor Hints" section:-
"If Sensored only mode is selected using the HotWire, the Timing Advance value in the HotWire is ignored by the speed control, it only uses the timing on the motor."
>> This is an error.


################################################
TEKIN RS ESC Algorithm Description (version 189 or later)
################################################


MODIFICATION HISTORY
=====================
v003 - Added sensored-only ESC display behaviour description. Removed brushed motor speak.
v002 - Fixed broken descriptions for sensored and dual mode behaviour. Simplified overview.
v001 - Original


OVERVIEW
==========
An insight into the proprietary algorithm used to increase motor RPM will provide drivers with the necessary background to setup their ESC and Motor combination to their optimal values. These values will typically vary from one track to another. The user selectable operating modes available to the Tekin ESC are the DualMode and SensoredOnlyMode.

-- The DualMode provides a user defined, fixed, timing advance effect
---- It is useful when an endbell adjustment is not available on the motor, or variable timing is not required.

-- The SensoredOnlyMode provides an ESC optimised variable timing effect (based on real time inputs) allowing:
---- maximum torque off the start line, and
---- maximum timing in the straight.

The following sections provide a structured description of the ESC behaviour. If you would like a natural language (plain english) description, please visit the Tekin website.


TERMINOLOGY
=============
In the following descriptions, States exist within a Mode (not the other way around).
A trigger (of some sort) causes a transition from one State to another.
Something happens of interest (behaviour) within a State.
Notes are added to well…, err…, mmm…, add notes.


DUAL MODE
===========
DUAL MODE - STATE TRANSITION
-----------------------------------------------------
In this Mode, the ESC firmware uses an algorithm to transition between the "SensoredState" & "SensorlessState". A simplified version of the algorithm looks something like the following logic:

IF (MotorRPM is Valid) AND (MotorRPM < ThresholdRPM)
THEN CurrentState = SensoredState

IF (MotorRPM is Valid) AND (MotorRPM >= ThresholdRPM)
THEN CurrentState = SensorlessState

IF (MotorRPM is Invalid)
THEN CurrentState = SensorlessState

Note 1: The ThresholdRPM value is typically very small - just enough to get the car moving. The maximum RPM value (which varies from one wind motor to another) is not relevant to this value.

Note 2: The ThresholdRPM value is internal to the ESC firmware and is not modifiable by the user.

DUAL MODE - SENSORED STATE
---------------------------------------------------
TotalTiming = EndbellMotorTiming value.
Flicker upper LEDS (5,6,7) faintly on the ESC.

DUAL MODE - SENSORLESS STATE
-------------------------------------------------------
In this Mode & State, the motor timing is FIXED, and set to the UserAdvanceSetting.

TotalTiming = UserAdvanceSetting (motor endbell timing has no effect).

Note 1: Useful for those that do not have an adjustable endbell.

Note 2: The UserAdvanceSetting is set via the Hotwire User Interface (it is not available via the ESC user interface).
The UserAdvanceSetting varies from 0 to 100% (of 30 degrees).


SENSORED ONLY MODE
=====================
SENSORED ONLY MODE - State Transition
---------------------------------------------------------------
In this Mode, the ESC firmware uses an algorithm to transition between the "SensoredState" & "SensorlessState". A simplified version of the algorithm looks something like the following logic:

IF (MotorRPM is Invalid) (* eg: sensor wire not connected, sensor wire drops off, sensor fails, etc *)
THEN CurrentState = SensorlessState

IF (MotorRPM is Valid) (* ie: sensor food chain ok *)
THEN CurrentState = SensoredState

(* Interaction with the ESC user interface is considered another state *)
IF (QuickTuneMode selected) OR (PitTuneMode selected)
THEN CurrentState = UserSettingsActiveState

SENSORED ONLY MODE - Sensorless State
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Use the same algorithm as "Dual Mode, SensorlessState".

SENSORED ONLY MODE - Sensored State
---------------------------------------------------------------
In this Mode & State the ESC firmware uses an algorithm to increase the motor timing.
A simplified version of the algorithm looks something like the following logic:

** Boost Timing Algorithm **
---- IF (Current => 50A) AND (Throttle =>75%) THEN ESC_Timing = Zero (degs)
---- IF (Current =< 60A) AND (Throttle =>90%) THEN ESC_Timing = UserBoostSetting (degs)

**Turbo Timing Algorithm **
---- IF UserBoostSetting applied continuously for more than 2 seconds (say),
---- THEN ESC_Timing = UserTurboSetting (degs)

**User feedback of sensored operation**
---- Flicker upper LEDS (5,6,7) faintly on the ESC.

Note 1: This means that off the start, the car gets maximum torque, and down the straight it gets maximum timing. The best of both worlds.

Note 2: The UserBoostSetting is set via the Hotwire User Interface (it is not available via the ESC user interface).
The valid UserBoostSetting range = 0 to 30 degs.

Note 3: This algorithm does NOT use motor RPM as an input, as different wind motors have different **maximum** RPM values.

Note 4: The UserTurboSetting value is a work in progress.
The valid UserTurboSetting range = 0 to TBD degs.

** WARNING **
The combined UserBoostSetting + EndbellMotorTiming value must be less than 30 to 40 degrees in total.
If this value is exceeded, damage may result to the motor.

Target motor temperature is between 160 and 180 degrees Fahrenheit (71 to 82 degrees Celsius).
If this value is exceeded, damage may result to the motor.

SENSORED ONLY MODE - User Settings Active State
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(* The following describes the VERY SPECIFIC behaviour in v194 and v198 RS firmware *)

IF UserAdjustment = MotorType THEN
---IF ESCMotorType is "Brushless Fwd/Brk" -----------------THEN Set all 7 LEDs to on

(* Contrast this with the default DualMode settings, as per the Tekin manual *)

CLARIFICATION
==============
The EarlyRead value (nominally 15 degs) is an internal mechanism, and does not factor into the user's perspective of the TotalTiming range in the descriptions above (so lets never mention it again).

Cheers
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Last edited by cosmo1974; 06-25-2009 at 05:37 PM. Reason: version update
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Old 05-30-2009, 05:31 AM   #4017
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I'm not sure saying sensorless operation is like fixed timing on a brushed motor is a correct analogy. It's my understanding that it is more like there is no timing since that would depend on when the coils are energized in relation to the rotor position. Which, in sensorless operation is controlled completely by the ESC.

I would also suggestion mentioning that Sensored Only Mode - State Transition as you put it is only in the event of sensor data failure.

Last edited by InspGadgt; 05-30-2009 at 05:42 AM.
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Old 05-30-2009, 06:10 AM   #4018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InspGadgt View Post
I'm not sure saying sensorless operation is like fixed timing on a brushed motor is a correct analogy. It's my understanding that it is more like there is no timing since that would depend on when the coils are energized in relation to the rotor position. Which, in sensorless operation is controlled completely by the ESC.

I would also suggestion mentioning that Sensored Only Mode - State Transition as you put it is only in the event of sensor data failure.
(1) I'm trying to describe what the user experiences rather than the physics of how it is implemented. The "Dual Mode - Sensorless State" has a fixed timing over the whole RPM range, which is what a Brushed motor experiences. The note under this section gives a hint: "Note 1: Useful for those that do not have an adjustable endbell." So its doing the same function as an adjustable endbell (which are terms from brushed motor speak).

In any case, do you have some alterative words that I can ponder over

(2) What is an example of your "sensor data failure"
You obviously mean something other than:
(the sensor wire drops off) OR (sensor is not connected)

Thanks
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Old 05-30-2009, 08:15 AM   #4019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmo1974 View Post
Hi all,
No corrections received against my previous post, therefore its time to update my algorithm originally posted on page 251.

** Mr Tekin to confirm or otherwise the following description **

TEKIN Website Input To The ESC Algorithm Description
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TEKIN website states the following under the "Motor Hints" section:-
"If Sensored only mode is selected using the HotWire, the Timing Advance value in the HotWire is ignored by the speed control, it only uses the timing on the motor."
>> This is an error, and needs correction.


################################################
TEKIN RS ESC Algorithm Description (version 189 or latter)
################################################


OVERVIEW
=========
An insight into the proprietary algorithm used to increase motor RPM will provide drivers with the necessary background to setup their ESC and Motor combination to their optimal values. These values will typically vary from one track to another. The user selectable operating modes available to the Tekin ESC are the DualMode and SensoredOnlyMode.

-- The DualMode provides behaviour similar to a brushed motor (ie: fixed timing).

-- The SensoredOnlyMode provides optimised variable timing, based on real time inputs, that allows both:
---- maximum torque off the start line, and
---- maximum timing in the straight.


TERMINOLOGY
=============
In the following descriptions, States exist within a Mode (not the other way around).
A trigger (of some sort) causes a transition from one State to another.
Something happens of interest (behaviour) within a State.
Notes are added to well…, err…, mmm…, add notes.


DUAL MODE
==========
DUAL MODE - STATE TRANSITION
------------------------------------------
In this Mode, the ESC firmware uses an algorithm to transition between the "SensoredState" & "SensorlessState". A simplified version of the algorithm looks something like the following logic:

IF (MotorRPM is Valid) AND (MotorRPM < ThresholdRPM)
THEN CurrentState = SensoredState

IF (MotorRPM is Valid) AND (MotorRPM >= ThresholdRPM)
THEN CurrentState = SensorlessState

IF (MotorRPM is Invalid)
THEN CurrentState = SensorlessState

Note 1: The ThresholdRPM value is typically very small - just enough to get the car moving. The maximum RPM value (which varies from one wind motor to another) is not relevant to this value.

Note 2: The ThresholdRPM value is internal to the ESC firmware and is not modifiable by the user.

DUAL MODE - SENSORED STATE
------------------------------------------------
TotalTiming = EndbellMotorTiming value.
Flicker upper LEDS (5,6,7) faintly on the ESC.

DUAL MODE - SENSORLESS STATE
----------------------------------------------------
In this Mode & State, the motor timing is FIXED (just like a brushed motor), and set to the UserAdvanceSetting.

TotalTiming = UserAdvanceSetting (motor endbell timing has no effect).

Note 1: Useful for those that do not have an adjustable endbell.

Note 2: The UserAdvanceSetting is set via the Hotwire User Interface (it is not available via the ESC user interface).
The UserAdvanceSetting varies from 0 to 100% (of 30 degrees).



SENSORED ONLY MODE
====================
SENSORED ONLY MODE - State Transition
------------------------------------------------------------
In this Mode, the ESC firmware uses an algorithm to transition between the "SensoredState" & "SensorlessState". A simplified version of the algorithm looks something like the following logic:

IF (the sensor wire drops off) OR (sensor is not connected) (* ie: MotorRPM is Invalid *)
THEN CurrentState = SensorlessState

IF (MotorRPM is Valid) (* sensor present *)
THEN CurrentState = SensoredState

SENSORED ONLY MODE - Sensorless State
--------------------------------------------------------------
Use the same algorithm as "Dual Mode, SensorlessState".

SENSORED ONLY MODE - Sensored State
------------------------------------------------------------
In this Mode & State the ESC firmware uses an algorithm to increase the motor timing.
A simplified version of the algorithm looks something like the following logic:

** Boost Timing Algorithm **
---- IF (Current => 50A) AND (Throttle =>75%) THEN ESC_Timing = Zero (degs)
---- IF (Current =< 60A) AND (Throttle =>90%) THEN ESC_Timing = UserBoostSetting (degs)

**Turbo Timing Algorithm **
---- IF UserBoostSetting applied continuously for more than 2 seconds (say),
---- THEN ESC_Timing = UserTurboSetting (degs)

Note 1: This means that off the start, the car gets maximum torque, and down the straight it gets maximum timing. The best of both worlds.

Note 2: The UserBoostSetting is set via the Hotwire User Interface (it is not available via the ESC user interface).
The valid UserBoostSetting range = 0 to 30 degs.

Note 3: This algorithm does not use motor RPM as an input, as different wind motors have different **maximum** RPM values.

Note 4: The UserTurboSetting value is a work in progress.
The valid UserTurboSetting range = 0 to TBD degs.

** WARNING **
The combined UserBoostSetting + EndbellMotorTiming value must be less than 30 to 40 degrees in total.
If this value is exceeded, damage may result to the motor.

Target motor temperature is between 160 and 180 degrees Fahrenheit (71 to 82 degrees Celsius).
If this value is exceeded, damage may result to the motor.


CLARIFICATION
=============
The EarlyRead value (nominally 15 degs) is an internal mechanism, and does not factor into the user's perspective of the TotalTiming range in the descriptions above.


Cheers
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Old 05-30-2009, 10:03 AM   #4020
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Originally Posted by rcpoint View Post
pffffffffffffff
Very nice translation, and excellent simplification
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