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Tekin RS ESC sensored

Tekin RS ESC sensored

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Old 05-15-2009, 05:19 PM
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The timing shouldnt be higher than 30 combined between the motor and speedo adjustment correct?
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Old 05-15-2009, 05:21 PM
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My understanding of sensored mode is for Timing boost. You gear the car for bottom end to get the torque you need out of the turns. Once your car reaches a certain rpm, then the Tekin will start to kick in timing. The more boost you run, the more timing it will throw to the motor once it hit's its set rpm.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 05-15-2009, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by philly123 View Post
The timing shouldnt be higher than 30 combined between the motor and speedo adjustment correct?
correct, you can go over but there is a chance you can damage the motor

Originally Posted by JimmyMac View Post
My understanding of sensored mode is for Timing boost. You gear the car for bottom end to get the torque you need out of the turns. Once your car reaches a certain rpm, then the Tekin will start to kick in timing. The more boost you run, the more timing it will throw to the motor once it hit's its set rpm.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
yes,timing boost is to get best of both worlds low torque from motor and rpm/timing from esc
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Old 05-16-2009, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Wall Banger View Post
There is a bug in 198 with the 1s check box. Was it working with 194? or did you change the way the booster is wired in? The booster goes between the battery and the receiver. The flashing lights mean low battery voltage.

Good luck
I reverted back to 194 and the problem persists. In fact now it won't even work with the 2 cell loipo receiver pack like I was using before.

Is anyone else running a 1 cell lipo and a Novak booster successfully with the RS in a 12th or WGT?
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Old 05-16-2009, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by andrewdoherty View Post
I reverted back to 194 and the problem persists. In fact now it won't even work with the 2 cell loipo receiver pack like I was using before.

Is anyone else running a 1 cell lipo and a Novak booster successfully with the RS in a 12th or WGT?
I know Donny Lia was running it with no problems. He was testing both, the 1 cell and Novak Booster. Trying contacting him.
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Old 05-16-2009, 09:55 AM
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It seems like it would be very helpful for the Tekin folks to come out with a guide that explains how each version of the RS firmware works... There is a lot of information and MISinformation floating around out there about how various versions work, and half the time it seems like "luck" to bump into the proper information you need.

So how about it Tekin folks, how about a version specific blurb/guide that explains what the settings do for specific versions of the firmware? The ones that don't change are not as big of a deal, but certainly things like boost and sensor only mode etc. should be described with a version specific reference, so people know exactly what their firmware does and how to set it up.

As an example, I picked up my RS a few weeks ago and ran in 13.5 with a motor that comes "out of the box" with about 25 degrees of timing. I added 13 boost and figured 38 was about right, but it ran hot and was a dog; only after raceday and much searching did I find that my version of the firmware adds 15 MORE degrees for "sensor only" mode and i was actually running about 53 degrees total timing, no wonder it sucked! I had to gear that sucker at around 6.1 FDR just to keep it within temp range (rubber tire touring car).
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Old 05-16-2009, 11:12 AM
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I understand some of the issues. The biggest misconceptions come from when the uneducated talk about the specs.

Sensored only mode doesn't actually add 15 degrees. There is an "early read" that ALL motors have(not the esc). This was brought up only after the big T said that they were releasing a motor with this "issue" fixed inside it. When those motors started to fail everyone got confused. We added to to the public "knowledge" base so people understood that what they thought was only 45 could actually be as high as 60!

So, in general with spec motors try to stay with the total timing between motor and boost no higher than 40. Much higher than this can cause mis commutations and super high motor temps. Anytime you run super high timing your window for succesful gearing becomes very tight and failure possibility is high. You MUST have the right gearing before you reach for the higher timing setups.

The latest software 198 can be found on the site. I reccomend that everyone be running the latest. The team has done exhaustive testing with trap guns and tracks of all sizes and has found that 189 vs. 194 vs. 198 results with the same speeds when setup in the same fashion. 198 has the latest updates for RS, R1, Fxr, B1r,etc.

The corrected version of 198 that has the 1s check box glitch fix will be out shortly:

www.teamtekin.com/hotwire.html
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Old 05-16-2009, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by JimmyMac View Post
My understanding of sensored mode is for Timing boost. You gear the car for bottom end to get the torque you need out of the turns. Once your car reaches a certain rpm, then the Tekin will start to kick in timing. The more boost you run, the more timing it will throw to the motor once it hit's its set rpm.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
So then duel mode... it doesn't dynamically change timing as RPM increases, it is more of a static setting that affects the motor at ALL RPMs?
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Old 05-16-2009, 11:22 AM
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found out that the 198 is working great.
Tested it today and it was good. Car reacted very good.

I drove today with a LRP X11 10,5T
geared it a tooth heavier from 5,6 to 5,4. motor temp was better and also got some more top speed.
Boost on 23 so total timing was 50.
It's at our track the best setup for now.
Tomorrow i will try to lower my boost to 18 or even to 13 and than gear it 1 or 2 tooth's heavier.
So i will try 40 to 45 total timing.
Don't now if it's good for our track because 0 motor timing and 30 boost didn't work here as well. no top speed.
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Old 05-16-2009, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Cpt.America View Post
So then duel mode... it doesn't dynamically change timing as RPM increases, it is more of a static setting that affects the motor at ALL RPMs?
dual mode gives you the option to change timing for the hole range for those that do not have a adjustable enbell, it also starts off in sensored mode and switches to sensorless at full rpm from my understading
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Old 05-16-2009, 04:40 PM
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Default 198 version

Randy so what will the 198 do for me , im currently running the 194 ( tc5r on asphalt with rubber tire and a 5000 40c )
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Old 05-16-2009, 09:20 PM
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Dennis, not much to be honest. The 2s application isn't changed.

In dual mode the timing is what is in the Timing Advance bar and is applied as soon as we roll into dual mode and away from the sensors.

Currently there is no dynamic timing.

I did however test some new software that has a "turbo" function(for lack of a better/chose term).

It's an extra bit of timing for long straights, and trust me it's a big help. You can easily hear the extra timing come in and better than that you can see it in the car.

Spx, we're coming for you....
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Old 05-16-2009, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Randy_Pike View Post
Dennis, not much to be honest. The 2s application isn't changed.

In dual mode the timing is what is in the Timing Advance bar and is applied as soon as we roll into dual mode and away from the sensors.

Currently there is no dynamic timing.

I did however test some new software that has a "turbo" function(for lack of a better/chose term).

It's an extra bit of timing for long straights, and trust me it's a big help. You can easily hear the extra timing come in and better than that you can see it in the car.

Spx, we're coming for you....
I'd be more than willing to help you test that software.
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Old 05-17-2009, 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Randy_Pike View Post
Sensored only mode doesn't actually add 15 degrees. There is an "early read" that ALL motors have(not the esc). This was brought up only after the big T said that they were releasing a motor with this "issue" fixed inside it. When those motors started to fail everyone got confused. We added to to the public "knowledge" base so people understood that what they thought was only 45 could actually be as high as 60!

So, in general with spec motors try to stay with the total timing between motor and boost no higher than 40. Much higher than this can cause mis commutations and super high motor temps. Anytime you run super high timing your window for succesful gearing becomes very tight and failure possibility is high. You MUST have the right gearing before you reach for the higher timing setups.
Ok, so I still need some help then, because I'm missing something.

I have a novak 13.5 motor hooked to my RS Pro in a rubber tire touring car on asphalt. I loaded 198 into my RS pro, started the FDR at 5.9, and set the ESC for 12 degrees of boost. My understanding is that this motor comes from the factory at ~25 degrees of timing (it doesn't have markings), which should have put me somewhere around 37 degrees of timing, which should have been a safe place to start at, considering that I was running 5.9 FDR. Everything I've read said that 5.9 was safe, and I would end up going to 5.5 or 5.6 with this setup; but I was playing it safe.

However, with this setup, the car was majorly lacking in top end (we have a 160ft straight, and after about 80 ft the other cars would simply walk away from me) AND the motor temps were into the mid 170's.. I ended up dropping two pinion sizes down to ~ 6.1 FDR to keep the motor temp under 165; with more resulting loss of top speed. The drivetrain isn't bound up or anything like that; the car ran a brushed 27 turn (co27) at the previous race and top speed was just fine.

I came home and read the tekin thread, and saw the bit about "extra 15 degrees of timing built into the ESC in sensored mode" and thought that was my problem - that i was actually running mid 50's because I had not accounted for the extra 15 degrees... So, I reset the motor to minimum timing (which according to my motor circumference to timing degrees conversion, took 13-14 degrees out of the motor).

but from what you said above, this extra 15 degrees doesn't exist, and now I'm going to be under timed and i haven't found the actual problem?

*confused*
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Old 05-17-2009, 02:00 AM
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Hi all,

(1) When I read the forums on one day I think I understand what the ESC is doing, yet on another day I am confused again. How about Mr Tekin including a simple description of the basic algorithm in ONE PLACE (eg: the Tekin website) so that everyone can be referenced to. If the algorithm gets updated then everyone knows where to look (the modification history can be used to show the evolution of the algorithm). The algorithm description does not have to give away any detailed trade secrets (if any). Trawling through the forums is a major pain in the butt.

(2) Here is one suggestion for the algorithm description that might appear on the Tekin website.

OVERVIEW
---------------
An insight into the proprietary algorithm used to increase motor RPM will provide drivers with the necessary background to setup their ESC and Motor combination to their optimal values. These values will typically vary from one track to another. In this context, the Tekin ESC has several operating modes. Within each mode, the ESC can be in one or more states. Within each state, the ESC behaves in a particular manner. Therefore, the key to success is to gain a basic understanding of the ESC behaviour in each state (and the trigger which causes the transition between states).

In this context, the allowed states (within each mode) are as follows:
-- Sensored Only Mode: ------The only state is the "SensoredState".
-- Sensorless Only Mode: -----The only state is the "SensorlessState".
-- Dual Mode: ----------------The only states are the "SensoredState" and "SensorlessState".

Note that there may be other states (eg: "PowerUpBuiltInTestState", "ChangeDeviceSettingsState") which are not relevant to this discussion.

SENSORLESS STATE
----------------------------
In the "SensorlessState" the ESC firmware uses an algorithm to advance the motor timing (aka "Boost"). A simplified version of the algorithm looks something like the following logic:

---- IF (Current => 50A) AND (Throttle =>75%) THEN ESC_Timing = Zero (degrees)
---- IF (Current =< 60A) AND (Throttle =>90%) THEN ESC_Timing = UserBoostSetting (degrees)
---- IF (Current =< 30A) AND (Throttle =>90%) THEN ESC_Timing = UserTurboSetting (degrees)

Note 1: This means that off the start, the car gets maximum torque, and down the straight it gets maximum timing. The best of both worlds.
Note 2: The UserBoostSetting value is set via the Hotwire User Interface (it is not available via the ESC user interface).
Note 3: This algorithm does not use motor RPM as an input, as different wind motors have different **maximum** RPM values.
Special Note 4: The UserTurboSetting is a glean in someone's eye at present.

** WARNING **
The combined UserBoostSetting + EndbellMotorTiming value must be less than 30 to 40 degrees in total. If this value is exceeded, damage may result to the motor.

Target motor temperature is between 160 and 180 degrees Fahrenheit (71 to 82 degrees Celsius). If this value is exceeded, damage may result to the motor.

SENSORED STATE
----------------------------
In the "SensoredState" the ESC does not provide any Boost. All timing advance is via the timing on the motor itself.

DUAL MODE
------------------
In DualMode, the ESC firmware uses an algorithm to transition from the "SensoredState" to the "SensorlessState". A simplified version of the algorithm looks something like the following logic:

IF MotorRPM < ThresholdRPM
THEN CurrentState = SensoredState
ELSE CurrentState = SensorlessState

Note 1: The ThresholdRPM value is typically very small - just enough to get the car moving. The maximum RPM value (which varies from one wind motor to another) is not relevant to this value.
Note 2: The ThresholdRPM value is internal to the ESC firmware and is not modifiable by the user.
Note 3: You can move your car wheels by hand, and the ESC firmware will detect this motor RPM change.

(* Mr Tekin to modify any or all of the above as appropriate to get the correct story*)
(* I'm just making a guess-timate *)
(* The various forums have totally confused me about SensoredState and SensorlessState behaviour *)
(* Appears like States and Modes are getting confused on the forums *)

Hope this helps stimulate debate
PS: I'm happy to update this description based on any factual input.
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