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Old 03-16-2011, 11:26 AM   #19996
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Originally Posted by wingracer View Post
Bump up your throttle trim until the light goes up, then back it off a click.

Not sure if this is an approved method or not or how it will affect drag or push but I like it.
Do not do this. This can cause esc damage and may cause the system to not arm upon turning it on.
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Old 03-16-2011, 11:27 AM   #19997
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Originally Posted by grippgoat View Post
Alright, so I did some testing. The Tekin is definitely weird.

Here's roughly what happens when I pull the trigger slowly.

1) First 10% of throttle throw: complete dead band. Absolutely no response from the speedo, even with minimum throttle at 20, and neutral with at 0.
2) Minimum throttle: Once you pass the dead zone, the tekin goes to min throttle.
3) Neutral width: As you pull the trigger more, the Tekin stays at the same throttle until you pass the neutral zone. With the min throttle at 20, I tested various neutral widths from 0 to 10. With neutral with of 0, the drive jumped to min right after the dead zone, and then climbed smoothly with more trigger. With higher neutral width values, the drive would stay flat at min throttle farther past the dead zone before increasing with added trigger.

I have to say, this seems pretty dumb to me. The way it should work is that neutral width should adjust the dead zone, and 0 should really be zero, or at least a lot closer than 10%. Then once you're past the dead zone, it should jump to min throttle, and then increase linearly from there.

So... I can imagine that the punch/throttle accel setting would be nice to have in the radio.

The best setting I could find, as far as the bench goes, was 0 neutral width and 15 min throttle. This made it give nothing for 10% of the throw, and then a slow, gentle drive with no cogging or anything. I'll definitely try that as a baseline next race night.

-Mike
I also would like to know what transmitter you're using?
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Old 03-16-2011, 11:34 AM   #19998
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He's using a dx3r, same as me. I have the exact same problem with my system and I'm very interested in a solution for this.
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Old 03-16-2011, 12:07 PM   #19999
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He's using a dx3r, same as me. I have the exact same problem with my system and I'm very interested in a solution for this.
+1. Same issue with two different DX3Rs and two different RS's. The first two lights come on upon engaging throttle before ANYTHING happens. Wingracer's suggestion is the only thing that works to tune it out, and I came upon it on my own and do it after allowing the unit to arm, but with Randy saying "No Go", I'm wondering what's going on here?
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Old 03-16-2011, 12:14 PM   #20000
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Originally Posted by Randy_Pike View Post
Do not do this. This can cause esc damage and may cause the system to not arm upon turning it on.
I'm curious as to how? Like I said, I back it back down until the neutral light comes back on. All I am doing is trying to get it to the high end of the dead band instead of in the middle and have had no arming problems with it. My radio seems to be precise enough to not require such a massive dead band but even set to 1, it's still bigger than I would like.

I can see where turning it up to where the first throttle light comes on could be a big problem but I would think my way would be fine.
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Old 03-16-2011, 12:16 PM   #20001
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+1. Same issue with two different DX3Rs and two different RS's. The first two lights come on upon engaging throttle before ANYTHING happens.
I wonder if a bunch of positive expo on the throttle might help. My M11 is nowhere near that bad.

Also, if the throttle lights are coming on, I would think raising the minimum throttle would help.
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Old 03-16-2011, 12:27 PM   #20002
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I wonder if a bunch of positive expo on the throttle might help. My M11 is nowhere near that bad.

Also, if the throttle lights are coming on, I would think raising the minimum throttle would help.
Tried both of those things, too, no joy. It's not an issue of minimun throttle (12 to 15 usually works out about perfect in my 12th or TCs), its an issue of where minimum throttle engages in the throw of the trigger. At one point I bumped min throttle WAY up, still didn't engage until just before the third light came on, and then the car JUMPED forward and up to speed (as expected), confirming that it's a min throttle engagement point issue.

Heck, I even tried it with a bunch of naked motors on the bench (x12-17.5, x11-13.5, novak ss-10.5, fantom duo 3-17.5, boss SP 1S-17.5, boss SP standard-17.5), same thing for all of them on both radios on 2 different RS's, so it's NOT a drive friction issue, either.

Borrowed another DX3R, same issue. At least 2 of my 4 RS's have this issue, and I've assumed that my other two do as well.

So far, I've just learned to live with it, knowing that the first 10-15+% of trigger throw is basically useless. Had the same issue with my second generation DX3.0 as well.
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Old 03-16-2011, 12:59 PM   #20003
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I also use a Dx3r so let's try this since there are a few of you with the issue.

Set your epa's to 100/100.

Put your NW to 5.

Set min throttle to 10(for now)

Car on the stand what I want to know is how much trigger throw is required to see the led move or hold. You will likely hear the motor "squeal" or hum...as soon as you hear this estimate how much trigger travel it took.
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Old 03-16-2011, 01:36 PM   #20004
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Originally Posted by Randy_Pike View Post
I also use a Dx3r
That's good to know...since my 3PJS with Spektrum module is getting really old I've been planning on getting a DX3R Pro next month. Nice to know I can get 1st hand support if I still have my fade issues after swapping radios
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Old 03-16-2011, 01:57 PM   #20005
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Originally Posted by Randy_Pike View Post
I also use a Dx3r so let's try this since there are a few of you with the issue.

Set your epa's to 100/100.

Put your NW to 5.

Set min throttle to 10(for now)

Car on the stand what I want to know is how much trigger throw is required to see the led move or hold. You will likely hear the motor "squeal" or hum...as soon as you hear this estimate how much trigger travel it took.
That's a subset of what I tested last night, and posted about above. I'll do exactly the test you describe tonight, though, and post the results.

I'm guessing you'd like a radio re-calibration after the EPA change setting?

I'd also strongly suggest you replicate the test I did for yourself, with min throttle at 20, and inrementing neutral width from 0 to 5 to 10, etc. If you need me to try and describe it better, let me know.

What strikes me as strange isn't so much that there's a deadband you can't get rid of. I think that's unfortunate, and I'd expect that to be what NW controls. I'd also expect that to be settable to an actual 0 that may make the unit fail to arm or cause other problems in a racing speedo. But I can imagine practical reasons for the way it is because of customer service liability concerns, or ensuring a functional experience for non-racing (or just dumb) customers.

What really makes me go is that it appears to apply minimum throttle before the neutral width. That just seems flat wrong.

Side Note: the M11 has an "adjustable rate" setting which looks like it would accomplish the same thing as punch (KO) and throttle accel (4pk), with even greater control.

Lastly, while I think that I'll have an easier time being smooth and quick with the throttle and brake with less dead zone, and that it might help me gain a couple tenths per lap, I'm still definitely only an intermediate driver, and improving response characteristics may not actually make any difference. But given the feedback about "feel" I've heard about Tekin from the truly fast guys at my track, I think there might be an opportunity to make an improvement to the product that would reduce or eliminate one of the few remaining arguments against it.

I also think there's a clear opportunity for those running an EX-10, 4PK, or M11 to get better response through radio settings, without using a super agressive throttle curve or expo in the radio.

-Mike
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Old 03-16-2011, 03:51 PM   #20006
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Mike you're confusing a few adjustments here.

First off NW or neutral width is the "window" in which we'll accept a neutral signal from the radio system. Cheaper AM radios for example have horribly inconsistent signals. If we had a narrow NW setup on these there will be arming/calibration issues. Conversely on a nice FM or DSM system the signal is far cleaner and more accurate. The NW setting varies on radio factors, voltage factors,etc.

Min throttle is the minimum drive if you will. As soon as we receive a fwd throttle signal this is the minimum drive percentage we power the motor with. So from 0(neutral) until the first step of throttle we go straight to min throttle setting.

What you have to understand is that the RS isn't only used in 1/10 racing. It's used in crawling and other applications.

I'm listening to what you're all saying and believe me will be testing these setups shortly. We're always listening to our customers.
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Old 03-16-2011, 04:16 PM   #20007
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Mike you're confusing a few adjustments here.
I may still be confused as to what the settings are designed to do, whether they're working as designed, and why they were designed that way. But in terms of what they actually do in the current software release, I think I've got a decent handle on it after the testing.

My expectation, before testing, was that NW would be the dead band adjustment, and only the deadband adjustment. My desire as a racing customer with a good 2.4ghz digital radio would be that I'd at least have the option to reduce the dead band right down to the limits of my radio. I certainly now recognize that my expectations and desires are not how it actually works.

Quote:
First off NW or neutral width is the "window" in which we'll accept a neutral signal from the radio system. Cheaper AM radios for example have horribly inconsistent signals. If we had a narrow NW setup on these there will be arming/calibration issues. Conversely on a nice FM or DSM system the signal is far cleaner and more accurate. The NW setting varies on radio factors, voltage factors,etc.

Min throttle is the minimum drive if you will. As soon as we receive a fwd throttle signal this is the minimum drive percentage we power the motor with. So from 0(neutral) until the first step of throttle we go straight to min throttle setting.

What you have to understand is that the RS isn't only used in 1/10 racing. It's used in crawling and other applications.
I know the RS is used beyond just racing, with all manner of radios. That's why the neutral width is so high out of the box. But some people are using it in racing, and it does seem to me that some of your adjustments for those people are overly limited. Whether they are actually working as designed, and whether that design needs to be tweaked, I'll leave up to you.

Quote:
I'm listening to what you're all saying and believe me will be testing these setups shortly. We're always listening to our customers.
And we greatly appreciate your listening.

-Mike

PS: Yes, I know I'm really neurotic and anal-rententive. Software development is one area where that's actually a useful trait, though.
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Old 03-16-2011, 06:53 PM   #20008
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What radio do you use?

-Mike
KO Helios ex-10. This is in tc 17.5 boosted I am running 0 NW and 10 min drive. I tried more min drive but I didnt care for it.

Not flaming, have just learned to deal with it, but my old lrp tcspec that I run in mod has no "dead zone". Otherwise I would problably would not have known any better, or noticed it.

Last edited by Shopkeeper; 03-16-2011 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 03-16-2011, 07:20 PM   #20009
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KO Helios ex-10. This is in tc 17.5 boosted I am running 0 NW and 10 min drive. I tried more min drive but I didnt care for it.

Not flaming, have just learned to deal with it, but my old lrp tcspec that I run in mod has no "dead zone". Otherwise I would problably would not have known any better, or noticed it.
Have you played with the punch setting in the transmitter?

-Mike
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Old 03-16-2011, 08:13 PM   #20010
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Have you played with the punch setting in the transmitter?

-Mike
Doesnt effect the neutral area that we are talking about.
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