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Old 04-07-2008, 09:10 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by timmay70 View Post
What self-centered jackass screws potential customers/privateers at a big event last minute like this? What retarded governing body makes a decision to screw patrons that drops serious coin attending an event like this? If ROAR made a rash decision like this, I'd drop them like a hot rock.

I enjoy going to big races and usually do so on a shoe string budget. If I found out that the tires that I bought ahead of time were illegal last minute at a big event, you can bet there would be a lynch mob banded together to string up the people who run the event - no matter how popular or un-popular they are.

This is prime example of how people are idiots. The products were available months ahead of time for the governing body to scrutinize. Many of the contestants that don't have a tire ride bought their own tires for the event. They had all that time to decide if the tires were legal or not. They should have been allowed for that one event and then banned. This would have been sufficient punishment for both the tire maker and the rat that decided to wait till the last minute to screw all the privateers that had to buy their own equipment.

This is a hobby, not a world governing body where the decisions will effect if someone starves or not.
Well said mate, i did not attend the euro's but if i had and was put into this situation i would have been not a happy chappy and would have protested this decision to it fullest extent. I do feel that the person in question who instigated the protest was motivated due to his job..

At the end of the day we are a bunch men/women who have never grown up and play with little toy car because we enjoy racing them and socializing with other racers.

To stop this situation arising again shouldn't EFRA ROAR BRCA etc have a Homologation Lists of approved tires and wheels! Or do they?
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Old 04-07-2008, 10:08 AM   #32
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I think EFRA needs to look out for the racers and put less emphasis on the rule book where infractions are so tiny and insignificant.

If this was a ROAR race the ROAR Rep would have spoken to Frank from CRC and Chicky from Parma and they would have all agreed that Jaco rims being one motor shim in diameter oversize (.3mm = .012") would do nothing to tire performance and granted a rule allowance to let them keep running.

This would have been in the best interests of the privateers that spent hard earned money on tires.
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Old 04-07-2008, 10:20 AM   #33
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I was team manager for Finland at the event and I was present in the meeting where Jaco rims were found illegal against EFRA rules. I was sitting next to Austrian team manager (Robert Bachofner).

What actually happened was that we were having just a normal team manager meeting on Friday before the first practice round. We discussed about all normal issues regarding the event. There was no preset agenda or anything.

After all normal issues were solved somebody said something like “OK now I think we have to still make couple big decisions”. I cannot remember who said this; either it was Robert or the EFRA referee present at the meeting. The way how this was said gave me the feeling that at least one or more persons in the meeting had the information about Jaco rims before the event. I cannot remember what was the other issue / decision, but it didn’t have anything to do with Jaco rims.

What happened next was that Robert took a bag of rims on the table and presented the issue that Jaco / CS rear rims are too big. In the bag there was I thinking 5 or 6 different rims, one from each manufacturer (GRP/Parma/CRC etc.). All rubber had been trued off from those. We discussed about the issue and also it came up in the discussions that some other manufacturers might also have slightly too big rear rim.

We took a digital meter and set the distance to exactly 38mm and tested each of the rims through it. Some of rims passed it even without touching. Some of the rims passed it with a slight push, but the meter was still set to 38mm after they had gone through it. Jaco rims passed it with a very hard push and after this the meter had moved to 38.2mm. This was the way how rims were measured at this meeting. Some other manufacturers were very close to not pass the test as well, but since the meter didn’t move they were accepted and found legal.

After this we discussed more about the issue since we knew that there is a lot of drivers using Jaco rear rims in the event. EFRA referee was quite strict about this since EFRA rules do not have any tolerances mentioned anywhere in the rules. Also Robert said since there are no tolerances mentioned in the rules he cannot see how Jaco rear rims could be legal. I think the exact words were “If I see anybody running Jaco rear rims and them passing the technical inspection, its 500 Euros straight from my pocket for the protest”. So in any case he would have been protesting against any driver using Jaco rear rims. At the same time he mentioned that he had brought 1500 pairs of rear tires with him to the event for sale. So clearly he had been prepared for the ban of Jaco rear rims.

The decision was clear. Jaco rear rims were too big and there was no way to rule them legal. The decision wasn’t easy, but rules are rules and they need to be followed. Driver is himself responsible from the equipment what they are using and it’s also their responsibility to know is the stuff legal what they are using.

I myself and I think most of the other team manager too didn’t have any information about this issue before the meeting, but like I said I think that besides Robert the EFRA referee had the information. I don’t know when he (EFRA referee) got it, so it might have been just before the meeting as well.

Like mentioned above I was sitting next to Robert and while he presented this issue I noticed interesting thing. He had some papers on his hand from which he read this information about the rims and these papers were printed emails in German language. Sure I don’t understand German, but I do know what the fields in email headers are. This printed email was dated I think 27.3.2008 or 29.3.2008. Event started and this meeting was held 4.4.2008.

I think this confirms that Robert had the information well beforehand the event, but instead of reporting it to EFRA or organizers he decided to keep this issue himself until the team manager meeting and make all the preparations to present this issue at the meeting and sell tires (rim samples + gathering 1500 pairs of rear tires with him for sale).

What I’m trying to say is that decision to rule Jaco rims illegal was correct, but the way and schedule how this issue was brought into attention was wrong. Instead of holding the information and preparing this “operation” Robert should have informed EFRA and race organizers as soon as possible so that they could have informed the drivers well before the event.

Best regards,
Matti Korvenmaa, Team Manager Finland
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Old 04-07-2008, 10:50 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copter View Post
I was team manager for Finland at the event and I was present in the meeting where Jaco rims were found illegal against EFRA rules. I was sitting next to Austrian team manager (Robert Bachofner).

What actually happened was that we were having just a normal team manager meeting on Friday before the first practice round. We discussed about all normal issues regarding the event. There was no preset agenda or anything.

After all normal issues were solved somebody said something like “OK now I think we have to still make couple big decisions”. I cannot remember who said this; either it was Robert or the EFRA referee present at the meeting. The way how this was said gave me the feeling that at least one or more persons in the meeting had the information about Jaco rims before the event. I cannot remember what was the other issue / decision, but it didn’t have anything to do with Jaco rims.

What happened next was that Robert took a bag of rims on the table and presented the issue that Jaco / CS rear rims are too big. In the bag there was I thinking 5 or 6 different rims, one from each manufacturer (GRP/Parma/CRC etc.). All rubber had been trued off from those. We discussed about the issue and also it came up in the discussions that some other manufacturers might also have slightly too big rear rim.

We took a digital meter and set the distance to exactly 38mm and tested each of the rims through it. Some of rims passed it even without touching. Some of the rims passed it with a slight push, but the meter was still set to 38mm after they had gone through it. Jaco rims passed it with a very hard push and after this the meter had moved to 38.2mm. This was the way how rims were measured at this meeting. Some other manufacturers were very close to not pass the test as well, but since the meter didn’t move they were accepted and found legal.

After this we discussed more about the issue since we knew that there is a lot of drivers using Jaco rear rims in the event. EFRA referee was quite strict about this since EFRA rules do not have any tolerances mentioned anywhere in the rules. Also Robert said since there are no tolerances mentioned in the rules he cannot see how Jaco rear rims could be legal. I think the exact words were “If I see anybody running Jaco rear rims and them passing the technical inspection, its 500 Euros straight from my pocket for the protest”. So in any case he would have been protesting against any driver using Jaco rear rims. At the same time he mentioned that he had brought 1500 pairs of rear tires with him to the event for sale. So clearly he had been prepared for the ban of Jaco rear rims.

The decision was clear. Jaco rear rims were too big and there was no way to rule them legal. The decision wasn’t easy, but rules are rules and they need to be followed. Driver is himself responsible from the equipment what they are using and it’s also their responsibility to know is the stuff legal what they are using.

I myself and I think most of the other team manager too didn’t have any information about this issue before the meeting, but like I said I think that besides Robert the EFRA referee had the information. I don’t know when he (EFRA referee) got it, so it might have been just before the meeting as well.

Like mentioned above I was sitting next to Robert and while he presented this issue I noticed interesting thing. He had some papers on his hand from which he read this information about the rims and these papers were printed emails in German language. Sure I don’t understand German, but I do know what the fields in email headers are. This printed email was dated I think 27.3.2008 or 29.3.2008. Event started and this meeting was held 4.4.2008.

I think this confirms that Robert had the information well beforehand the event, but instead of reporting it to EFRA or organizers he decided to keep this issue himself until the team manager meeting and make all the preparations to present this issue at the meeting and sell tires (rim samples + gathering 1500 pairs of rear tires with him for sale).

What I’m trying to say is that decision to rule Jaco rims illegal was correct, but the way and schedule how this issue was brought into attention was wrong. Instead of holding the information and preparing this “operation” Robert should have informed EFRA and race organizers as soon as possible so that they could have informed the drivers well before the event.

Best regards,
Matti Korvenmaa, Team Manager Finland

Hi Matti

thanks for the first hand information, i am absolutely disgusted by the actions of Robert Bachofner and feel that his action were purely motivated by greed and feel that he should be banned from selling merchandise at any further euro championships / EFRA sanctioned event. I also feel that CRC should look into this situation as this will give a fantastic company(CRC) a bad name.

I really hope that Robert Bachofner will come on to this forum and explain himself as the only thing he has managed to do is bring a dark cloud over our sport.

cheers
steve

P.S. I am a Director of a company, and if any person who works for me was to pull a silly stunt like that they would be disciplined for there actions.
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Old 04-07-2008, 10:59 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bs6ef View Post
Hi Matti

thanks for the first hand information, i am absolutely disgusted by the actions of Robert Bachofner and feel that his action were purely motivated by greed and feel that he should be banned from selling merchandise at any further euro championships / EFRA sanctioned event. I also feel that CRC should look into this situation as this will give a fantastic company(CRC) a bad name.

I really hope that Robert Bachofner will come on to this forum and explain himself as the only thing he has managed to do is bring a dark cloud over our sport.

cheers
steve

P.S. I am a Director of a company, and if any person who works for me was to pull a silly stunt like that they would be disciplined for there actions.
Well put Steve... CRC has been drawn into this mess and they need to step up and explain their side, along with this Bachofner guy, whether they want to or not. I'm hoping that CRC had no knowledge of this before hand, the backlash will hurt their company here in the US....
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:02 AM   #36
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I think that it's in pretty poor form to pull that kind of stunt at a big race. The fact that one of the guys (or the only guy) protesting had replacement tires is pretty crappy if you ask me.

I wouldn't buy tires from a manufacturer that pulled a stunt like that. I also doubt that Frank (CRC) would do anything like that at a big race here in the states.

In my area of the US, onroad is tapering off. I personally don't think that it's because of the tires or prices but some thing like what just happened in Europe would probably crush the onroad crowd here in the US.
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:30 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Nova F1 Racer View Post
CRC has been drawn into this mess and they need to step up and explain their side, along with this Bachofner guy, whether they want to or not. I'm hoping that CRC had no knowledge of this before hand, the backlash will hurt their company here in the US....

here's a reply from Frank @ CRC he's posted in a UK fourm.

Quote:
Hello Gentlemen,



I am currently gathering information regarding this wheel issue. I will reply here after I gather information.

Here is some factual information in the meantime:

1 - I do know that all the US manufactures were e-mailed by ROAR on 3/19/2008 regarding oversized wheels in 1:12th scale. Manufactures on this list were Parma, Jaco, CRC and BSR. We were alerted to check our wheels as some manufactuers were too large. Ours were re-checked and found to be within the rules.

2 - Hoeco Modellbau is the mainland European distributor for CRC. Robert Bachofner is not the distributor for CRC in Europe. Robert is not employed by CRC nor Hoeco.

3 - CRC had no part in the official protest. We had our chance to officially protest at the ROAR Nationals and chose not too.

I will gather some information and report with an offical statement from Calandra Racing Concepts.


Regards,
Frank Calandra
President
Calandra Racing Concepts, Inc
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:39 AM   #38
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Did the Hotbodies drivers run a stock kit or did the modify something. Did they use Asso Parts. Are there any pics of the cars around?


Greez
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:42 AM   #39
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A short video has just been posted on youtube.

It's the 3rd Amain.

If I am not mistaken it is Andy Moore, car No.5, picking up places one by one. It really is remarkable how fast they go...

enjoy the clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxzNu_T8ytw
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:46 AM   #40
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RC Racing TV were there filming the event and the full races, with multicameras , replay and professional commentary will be on the show in the coming months!
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:51 AM   #41
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Related to Frank's post that was quoted here. As far as I know Robert Bachofner is employee of Black Art Racing. Company that just released Audi R10 body for 1:12th scale. This body just got approved by EFRA.

I don't know what kind of relations this company has to CRC or Hoeco, but if you look into their site at http://www.blackart-racing.eu and look at the links page, it's clear that some kind of relations exists.
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Old 04-07-2008, 12:00 PM   #42
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Related to Frank's post that was quoted here. As far as I know Robert Bachofner is employee of Black Art Racing. Company that just released Audi R10 body for 1:12th scale. This body just got approved by EFRA.

I don't know what kind of relations this company has to CRC or Hoeco, but if you look into their site at http://www.blackart-racing.eu and look at the links page, it's clear that some kind of relations exists.
There is or WAS a relationship between CRC and Robert Bachofner as stated on the CRC website

QUOTE "Lastly, thanks to our European team manager, Robert Bachofner. He is the glue that holds it all together in Europe. During big events like the Euros, he doesn't sleep or eat.... non stop working on cars, helping drivers and promoting, not only CRC, but 1/12th scale in general. Awesome job Robert!" link http://www.teamcrc.com/crc/modules.p...article&sid=46.

As this is dated March 2006 they may no longer have a relationship..
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Old 04-07-2008, 01:00 PM   #43
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It's all been said - the guy is a bad egg, has no idea that he spiked the guns of people who don't pay for their tyres, and ruined the race for scores of racers who do. What stuck in my craw was that the minute the decision was announced, several boxes of CRC tyres appeared from the back of guess-whose car.

Frank's got his work cut out here. My Black-Art Audi body that was given to me courtesy of the Audi was given to someone else, and I will think several times before buying CRC and Black Art products in future. It cost me an extra $110+ (bear in mind the tyres cost $28 a pair at the event!) to race, and I was lucky as I could afford it.

One thing to add - I think it was last year that we discovered that the Parma wheels were 39-ish mm wide when the Rule was 38mm. No one minded at the Europena championships that year. I've just measured a CRC rim that was used at that event and it is 38.2mm wide - illegal. Robert Bachofner is an idiot, and I hope that everyone in the US will avoid his Black Art products. As he no longer represents CRC (something we all assumed he did at the event!) we have to wait and see what Frank has to say.

Please don't run away with the idea that this was a big deal. We just got on with the racing, and in the end a CRC driver didn't win, as the racers worked together to make sure they got the tyres that worked, and the cars to handle on them. GRP flew in tyres, and the amateurs all helped each other out.

Hans-Peter Bopp and his team organised a good race, and everything worked very well. The banquet at the Audi Forum and Museum was not only great food and drink, it was free for everyone, and we got to go round the Audi Museum and talk to very knowledgeable guides. It was a really good European Championship event. It should not be remembered for some complete idiot tried to stitch us all up on the tyre front - that guy is an irrelevant sideshow to a good race somewhere we would all go back to.
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Old 04-07-2008, 01:56 PM   #44
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If the rims should be 38 mm and they are 38,3, means 0,15 on the surface.
Rules are rules, but rules are there to see that no-one have any advantage with illegal stuff.
This is a issue that can be adressed to ( in this case Jaco ) to fix, but should not enough to disqualify any driver using it, as it have no impact on performance. This is stupidity. Have seen a lot worse stuff pass booth EFRA and IFMAR scruteneering. Many times.
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Old 04-07-2008, 02:07 PM   #45
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Hi Anders

the issue is not that the wheels were band it is that, that certain person used this situation to make money ..

steve
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