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Old 04-15-2008, 06:42 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by CypressMidWest View Post
It's not just Foam TC that's dying, it's TC in general. Frail $500 cars requiring constant attention, with a new must have tuning part appearing bi-weekly has begun to wear on the club racers. That's why 12th scale has begun to surge in popularity again. What was it, 79 12th stock entries at the Nats? It was the biggest class. Why would an organizer compromise the track for 30 or so rubber tire TC's when the two biggest classes at the event are the 12th scale stock and 19t classes?

Sedan foams go for what, $15 a pair? so if you show up at the CHAMPS with 5 sets, it's $150. $150 in tires really doesn't seem all that much to me for a MAJOR event. A rubber tire race that allows 4 sets of tires at a cost of $30 equates to $120 in tires so it's an overall savings of $30. Anybody with any aspiratons of going fast with Rubbers buys as many sets as the rules allow, because we all know fresh rubbers are faster. A club racer who's going for the "big race experience" could easily run this race on three sets of foams. You just start 'em out a bit taller, glue the bead to ensure they don't peel and have at it. You've got six hours or so between rounds to reset your droop and ride-height, so it's not like you're in a huge time crunch.
In my experience that is wrong, I ran 1 set the whole weekend at the birds in stock rubber and I know most people ran just one set. Tires got better for me the more runs I put on them. 30 bucks total for practice and racing.

In foam tc if your running 5 sets of tires total you will not make any mains. Just facts
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Old 04-15-2008, 07:09 AM   #137
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In my experience that is wrong, I ran 1 set the whole weekend at the birds in stock rubber and I know most people ran just one set. Tires got better for me the more runs I put on them. 30 bucks total for practice and racing.

In foam tc if your running 5 sets of tires total you will not make any mains. Just facts
That's a new set for each qual and the main. Freshies every run that counts. Some guys, yourself included, could make the main under those conditions.

I guess the new Jacos get faster as they wear then, which is considerably different than the RP's and Take-offs that were the old standard. Like I said it doesn't matter in my opinion, because ruining the track for 140 entries to satisfy 30-40 still makes no sense.

Rubber tire TC hurts the carpet for the 12th scale guys. Skeen couldn't have described the situation any more clearly. His experience at his track is closely mirrored by the conditions at Tri-State in Cincinnatti. Pre-ruber tire, the track was consistent and bite was good, after a week of rubber tire, you pick up your 12th scale car and there's carpet fibers wrapped around the tires. There's no magical tuning aid to fix this. With TC turnouts dropping, and 12th scale picking up it doesn't make a whole lotta sense to cater to the shrinking group.
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Old 04-15-2008, 07:13 AM   #138
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I hope they choose to run rubber at Cleveland I will laugh and laugh, and if not I'll still be watching it on liverc.

Rubber carpet is here to stay get used to it.
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Old 04-15-2008, 07:37 AM   #139
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I can totally see Alex and Ian announcing in Cleveland!!!

I have been to races where Alex makes the A-main, and does not run it, to announce the A!!

Alex is the voice of carpet racing in the Northeast, period.

Now if we could add Monty as the third announcer...........

Thanks for the kind words Bro. It's always a pleasure to put together a good show for you Guys out there!
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Old 04-15-2008, 07:44 AM   #140
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Rubber tire TC hurts the carpet for the 12th scale guys. Skeen couldn't have described the situation any more clearly. His experience at his track is closely mirrored by the conditions at Tri-State in Cincinnatti. Pre-ruber tire, the track was consistent and bite was good, after a week of rubber tire, you pick up your 12th scale car and there's carpet fibers wrapped around the tires. There's no magical tuning aid to fix this. With TC turnouts dropping, and 12th scale picking up it doesn't make a whole lotta sense to cater to the shrinking group.
Ian, Im not sure I completely agree. You may be right but here is my theory:

- I got carpet fibers all over my tires when at WoH. They didnt run rubber tires.
- There wasnt a rubber tire class until the weather started getting cold. Cold temps cause less tractions
- Rubber tire class has fallen off since now outdoor is coming soon. At the same time the temperature is starting to rise and as a result the traction is increasing.

I dont know but at least to me it seems the temperature has more to do with the traction then the rubber tires. 12th scale (and TC) had the same problems at WoH with traction during the cold winter days. Esp before the building completely warmed up. Sometimes it was almost undrivable for all cars (not just 12th scale).

Im not saying Cleveland should have rubber tire. Just not sure I 100% agree on rubber tire cars causing the problems with traction.
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Old 04-15-2008, 08:35 AM   #141
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IMO the only thing that will bring life back into Foam Sedan racing is a hand out foam thats a harder compound like purples and plaids. Make everyone buy the tires from the host track so the host track makes some money. How much money do host tracks make on foam tire races....not much if any with damn near the whole field getting tires for free or at cheaper then hobby shop cost. Look at the carpet nats more people in rubber tire then in the foam class.....I wonder why? It was close in Vegas too people are fed up on these stupid soft tires that last 1 run before they peel off the rim. Try a spec tire or a hand out foam tire race and see how it plays out. This is only for sedan, 12th scale doesnt have the same thing going on more people are going back to 12th scale because of this reason as well. The first race to do something like this would set the trend thats for sure and might get more people.
I remember when rubber tire was open tire/wheel/insert and the pre-mounts were introduced that everybody hated them, but it saved the class. Everybody learned to set-up their cars with the new tires. Why not get a manufacturer to make foams with a grey band (like the old Trinity Spec tires) in one compound and that is what everybody uses? Purples! They won't wear out in two runs and won't peel as easy. No big wheel or small wheel, 26 or 28 mm, wraps, etc... One easily identified tire for everybody to use. When the handout rubber tire is RP's I don't hear everybody crying it's not fair to Sorex, why should this be any different? If Trinity/TRC, Parma, Jaco all offer a "handout" tire they can bid for the race just like the importers of the rubber tires do.
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Old 04-15-2008, 08:59 AM   #142
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Xpress...I 100% agree.

One standard spec foam tire..thats it,we run toy cars that have every adjustment real race cars have and there is no exscuse..make the car work on the one tire compound, Just like the real deal...Let the track decide which tire to use....Will there be a war among the tire manufacters...YES...but if nothing is done, the class will keep dying and they wont' sell ANY REGARDLESS !!!!!!

Limit the amount of tires at a race per class too...this way people won't be shaving them down to 2mm of foam....

Something needs to be done and I think this is the right thing to do...there is nothing better than watching people DRIVE to win....The closest racing EVER is done at the REEDY race....same tire...front spool...Imagine ...!!!!!!!
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Old 04-15-2008, 08:59 AM   #143
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Purples! They won't wear out in two runs and won't peel as easy.
They might not peel as easy, but they will certainly wear out as fast, if not faster. If the tire doesn't grip the track, it slides. If the tire slides, it's grinding the foam off the rim. High grip is what keeps the tires from wearing out at stupid rates. I'm not so sure I'm a fan of a spec foam tire. Please, if you don't like foam tire racing (not saying you are, Xpress), don't impose your views on those of us who are.
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Old 04-15-2008, 09:07 AM   #144
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timmay70...How long have you been running foams...??
As a recall when we ran plad/ purple at cleveland of all places they got better after a few runs and 3 to 4 sets got you through the whole event...mod touring too...?
And they were just as fast as they are now..?:
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Old 04-15-2008, 09:08 AM   #145
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They might not peel as easy, but they will certainly wear out as fast, if not faster.
Huffing Paragon again are we?
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Old 04-15-2008, 09:23 AM   #146
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Ian, Im not sure I completely agree. You may be right but here is my theory:

- I got carpet fibers all over my tires when at WoH. They didnt run rubber tires.
- There wasnt a rubber tire class until the weather started getting cold. Cold temps cause less tractions
- Rubber tire class has fallen off since now outdoor is coming soon. At the same time the temperature is starting to rise and as a result the traction is increasing.

I dont know but at least to me it seems the temperature has more to do with the traction then the rubber tires. 12th scale (and TC) had the same problems at WoH with traction during the cold winter days. Esp before the building completely warmed up. Sometimes it was almost undrivable for all cars (not just 12th scale).

Im not saying Cleveland should have rubber tire. Just not sure I 100% agree on rubber tire cars causing the problems with traction.
Tim, I rarely EVER picked up fibers at WOH. The first few weeks after the new carpet went in everyone picked some up, the carpet had to "bed-in", so that's to be expected. Track temp does greatly influence traction levels, as you have stated. But two weeks after John opened, I could run pink/magenta, and pick up no fibers. Actually the whole car was "edgy" because it had too much bite. Enter the rubber tire class, and suddenly two minutes in to a 12th scale run, the car develops a really bad push, then at three mins. in it begins a push, hook, push attitude. Pick the car up after the run and it appears to have a grey Chihuahua on each corner of the car. Now in order to run well at Tri-State I have to run black or Grey fronts, and white or Grey rears, tires which wear twice as fast as a Pink/Magenta combo. The track temp is now better regulated there, there's more compound in the groove, and the carpet is broken-in, so the track should be prime, but it's not. It was prior to rubber tire TC racing though. Much the same way Skeen's track reacted. The fact that Tri-State and WOH also did Oval on Saturday nights contributes to the problem as well, but only at four places on the track, and the problem now exists on the entire track.

This problem affects TC and 12th scale, but the issue is FAR more pronounced in 12th scale. Pulfer has experienced the exact same issues, so it's not just me. The same problem existed at WOH but only in areas that had the fibers pulled in the opposite direction by the Oval cars. I think at the very least we should run the track in the opposite direction like the Oval, and justlike snowbirds. That would help a little.
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Old 04-15-2008, 09:35 AM   #147
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I hope they choose to run rubber at Cleveland I will laugh and laugh, and if not I'll still be watching it on liverc.

Rubber carpet is here to stay get used to it.
Rubber tire carpet's always been around, and it will never go away. I'm more than used to it. Hell, people still run Stock Electric Stadium truck, but that doesn't mean I have to think it's cool.

Racers always scream to have their favorite class included at every race. If a race exists that doesn't offer the class you wanna race in the choice is pretty simple....... GO TO A DIFFERENT RACE. They don't offer a 12th scale class at The Novak Race, so I don't go. I also don't jump into Scotty's Novak Race thread and piss and moan about how he doesn't offer a 12th scale class at the Novak. But I guess that's just me.........
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Old 04-15-2008, 09:37 AM   #148
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Ian, you are right about the inconsistent traction. I think between the oval and how the track is sprayed sometimes the traction comes and goes on the track. Fuzz was pretty bad for my TC at WoH but I also dont run as tight a line as you so that might be some of the difference. I think the rubber tires and warm temps are returning this weekend. Id be interested in what the experience will be like. I wont be there, if you are could you let me know. Im just curious more then anything

Perhaps an RC zamboni between heats to pick of the fuzz will solve the problem
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Old 04-15-2008, 09:41 AM   #149
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timmay70...How long have you been running foams...??
As a recall when we ran plad/ purple at cleveland of all places they got better after a few runs and 3 to 4 sets got you through the whole event...mod touring too...?
And they were just as fast as they are now..?:
Since 89.

That is why we are still running purple/plaid, because they are just as fast and don't wear out? If they are just as fast, why are we not still running them?
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Old 04-15-2008, 09:43 AM   #150
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timmay70....Well then you should know ....?
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