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Old 02-20-2008, 11:06 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by razzor View Post
All reasonable answers but i am not a below average racer and drive fairly well.
Why i ask is when we run the top boys are definately faster speed wise down the straight.
One reason why the fast guys are faster down the straight is that they're faster through the corner leading onto the straight. The more speed you have entering the straight, the more speed you'll have in the middle and at the end of the straight.

For what it's worth, I gear a CO27 at 1.84 rollout in a 1/12 car on an 80*40 carpet track. Seems plenty fast on the straight (the guys who are currently a couple of laps faster than me can't pull me down the straight) The only place they're eating me up is in the corners. I'm just not driving to the car's potential.
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Old 02-20-2008, 01:26 PM   #17
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its not tuned (the motor)?
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Old 02-20-2008, 01:52 PM   #18
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Most people are very quick to blame the motor or power in general for overall lack of performance. Being fast and putting down good times involves so much more than just having power in your car or being the fastest guy down the straight.

I can't count the number of times I have watched one of my drivers pull on the straight and DRIVE BY another car only to lose that advantage the moment a corner arrives. Between driver, gearing, chassis, cells and tires the motor starts to become one of the least contributing factors to a fast car. When all those other variables are correct the motor can make or break you but it's never going to take a car from the C-Main to TQ.

If you have guys at your local track that are pulling you and putting down better times by all means talk to them. I haven't bumped into many fast guys who aren't willing to watch you run and offer advice as to where you are losing time on the track. Chances are you have other things that could offer you much more potential than a faster motor can.

Please don't take this the wrong way, I am speaking from an awful lot of experience and frustration as a motor man. Looking over the whole package is a great way to find a few tenths on the track.

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Old 02-20-2008, 02:03 PM   #19
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The trick is to over gear your car but drive it extremely smooth. Remember, the less speed you scrub in corners, and the less you hit things the higher you can gear. It generally takes a couple of laps to get up to speed if your gearing is on the high side but as long as your setup and driving is on, it will be faster once you get there. But if you are blowing a line every few laps it will not help.
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Old 02-20-2008, 04:35 PM   #20
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Sorry to be getting away from the topic of motors, but I'd be willing to bet that if someone like AMB would come up with a system where there were several timing loops on the track, and the layout could be broken down into sections, with sector times displayed along with lap times, we'd really learn a LOT about just what makes someone "fast".

I'd almost guarantee that the "fast" guys might be maybe a tenth of a second faster down the straight, but a tenth quicker through most of the corners. Figure a typical layout with anywhere from eight to a dozen corners, and motor RPM starts to look fairly insignificant in the equation...
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Old 02-20-2008, 06:20 PM   #21
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One reason why the fast guys are faster down the straight is that they're faster through the corner leading onto the straight. The more speed you have entering the straight, the more speed you'll have in the middle and at the end of the straight.
This is sooo true. Also see Nick's post about other factors...very good advice.

Quote:
For what it's worth, I gear a CO27 at 1.84 rollout in a 1/12 car on an 80*40 carpet track. Seems plenty fast on the straight (the guys who are currently a couple of laps faster than me can't pull me down the straight) The only place they're eating me up is in the corners. I'm just not driving to the car's potential.
My son Jeff was TQ at the 'birds with the CO27 geared at 1.85 rollout, so you are right on, Trips. And check out Jeff's setup on the Corally SP12x thread...it may not be your driving but car setup limiting corner speed. Tires are 75% of proper handling, but the right setup, the other 25%, is crucial to eeking out the last 2 or 3 tenths a lap.
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Old 02-20-2008, 07:52 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trips View Post
Sorry to be getting away from the topic of motors, but I'd be willing to bet that if someone like AMB would come up with a system where there were several timing loops on the track, and the layout could be broken down into sections, with sector times displayed along with lap times, we'd really learn a LOT about just what makes someone "fast".

I'd almost guarantee that the "fast" guys might be maybe a tenth of a second faster down the straight, but a tenth quicker through most of the corners. Figure a typical layout with anywhere from eight to a dozen corners, and motor RPM starts to look fairly insignificant in the equation...
that would be cool, like sectors. Lots of numbers, but to some it might be worth it.
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Old 02-20-2008, 07:56 PM   #23
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Old 02-20-2008, 09:48 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Brown View Post
This is sooo true. Also see Nick's post about other factors...very good advice.



My son Jeff was TQ at the 'birds with the CO27 geared at 1.85 rollout, so you are right on, Trips. And check out Jeff's setup on the Corally SP12x thread...it may not be your driving but car setup limiting corner speed. Tires are 75% of proper handling, but the right setup, the other 25%, is crucial to eeking out the last 2 or 3 tenths a lap.
Right now I'm 99.9% sure it's my driving... not that I like to admit that to myself, but the guy to beat at my home track is a guy who I've been racing with since the early '90's. He can take my car and run laps right on the same pace as his own car. I'm running the same tires as him, and we run the same setup. I can still build a friction and slop-free car that works, everyone who drives one of my cars LOVES it, but I took a couple of years off racing and flew helis instead... since I came back i've been driving very timidly. Probably because every time one of my big helis hit something it was like $1200 or so to get it flying again... Kinda made me impact-shy if you know what I mean... I've been driving more to avoid crashing than for fast laps... waiting til I was past the board before turning in, that sort of thing. Kept the car pretty safe, but hell on lap times. Not being in the groove because it was so close to the boards... Also throw in the fact that I've been getting to the track maybe once every month and a half or so, and it just wasn't coming back...

I did get out the last three weeks in a row, and made a concious effort to drive more aggressively. This past weekend I was a full second a lap faster on the same layout as three weeks ago with no changes to the car... Just driving better. I was a half second a lap faster than two weeks ago with a 19 turn on the same layout. Two laps better on my best run than two weeks ago in 19 turn... With a stock motor. Just from getting out every week and concentrating on driving better. Making an effort to see where I was losing time and fixing it.

Of course, to prove that I'm no smarter than anyone else in the hobby, I went and bought a dyno today. Go figure...
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Old 02-20-2008, 10:33 PM   #25
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I believe as well it is not all motor. I have been to all the IIC races and have been down the straight with some of the fast guys and most times have as much power if not more then them. What it boils down to is your driving and setup of the car. I know I don't drive as well as them for I don't have a carpet track to practice on and I don't take as tight of lines as they do. So imo you can't put it all on the motor and batteries. Yes the team guys are getting the best stuff and I could get it as well, but if I am not driving as well as them I will never be as fast as them. I don't get frustrated over it though for I am also out there to have fun. That is the main thing with this hobby that I believe gets lost a lot of times with people. I have gave that advice to a few people at my home dirt track and after they heard it and understood it they had more fun as well as drove better. In the end it is just about driving toy cars and having fun while doing it. Don't put any serious expectations on yourself and you tend to do better. Try it, it may work for you as well.
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Old 02-21-2008, 12:26 AM   #26
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All points noted and im sure there are areas i can improve on.
At the moment my strength is my corner speed and speed through the tight technical areas of the track.
I love tight tracks for the challenge but i definately feel i need a bit more performance.
The idea behind this thread is to learn and find ways of improving my motor skills and to pass it on to fellow racers.Pointless being fast if there is no competition pushing you to the next level and its always the challenge of trying to be as fast or faster than the guy/s that took the Amain.

Keep the comments coming, good relevant info here even though not motor orientated.
Thanks
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Old 02-21-2008, 12:59 AM   #27
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Well, in an earlier post I did mention that I'm running a CO27 at 1.84 rollout and I feel I'm in no way lacking for power... but I did bury that item in a bunch of driving-related talk...

To get back on topic, I'd have to say that the single most important thing with any of today's stock motors is good brush alignment. I read the Big Jim black book, and to be honest, I did more harm than good to my motors trying to align my brushes following his suggestions. I guess I just don't have the skill or touch to do each hood individually and get them just right.

I've been using a different method that I read about on one of the other forums, and it's been working very well for me. Basically, you use a brush hood alignment bar that has a hole in it and a rod that goes through the bushings (like the Trinity or Racer's Edge bar) and put the alignment bar and rod into place, the loosen the spring post and screw on the hood and crank the hood clockwise against the bar and hold it there as you re-tighten the spring post and screw. After you've done both hoods you know you did it right when you have to pull hard to get the alignment bar back out, as if the brush hoods are trying to hang on to the bar.

What you've just done is to slightly crank the hoods in the opposite direction from the way the brushes cock in the hoods when the motor runs, and this gets the brushes centered better in the motor. Does this work as well as the Big Jim method? Probably not, I think a truly skilled motor guy could probably get the hoods aligned better by tweaking each one by hand and reading the wear marks on the brush, but this method has worked better for me, that's for sure. The thing that always worried me about doing it Big Jim's way was that even if I did get the wear marks centered on each brush face, all that told me was that each brush was aligned to the comm, but they might NOT be aligned 180 degrees opposite each other... Probably not the ideal way to make power...

Other things to look at are brush and spring selection. I've been partial to "F" brushes lately, but last weekend I ran a borrowed CO27 (thanks to Ralph Morella) and he had it set up with Putnam brushes (red shunts) and red springs. All the rip in the world and didn't fade at all over the eight minutes. I haven't really liked the CO27 motors, I've been partial to RPM'ish motors and short gearing, but this particular CO27 has changed my mind somewhat... Maybe it's because I'm racing at a smaller track now and torque is probably more important than it was at the huge track I was racing at last year...or possibly that since my long break from racing my lines and corner speed aren't what they should be so I need all the torque I can get coming off the corners... but this combo really impressed me.

Sorry about hijacking this thread away from motor talk and toward driving issues... Hope this helps get it back on track. I have a dyno coming in the next week or so, I'm going to use this CO27 as a baseline to compare to some of my motors and hope to find out why I like this particular motor so much...
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Old 02-21-2008, 01:07 AM   #28
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One more post before I go to bed...

I found a bunch of interesting info on this thread:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/archiv...p/t-34546.html

Mostly dyno related, but still some good motor info as well if you don't mind reading through a bunch of posts. Definitely changed my way of thinking in a few ways.

Also, pretty much all the info from Big Jim's Black Book on motor tuning is posted here:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=126994

Again, a bunch of reading, but lots of good info in there.
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