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Old 06-25-2008, 11:44 AM   #556
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The fact is that there are A LOT of people who have actually run LiPo, seen the benefits, feel that running NiMH is just fighting change for the sake of fighting change, and will not go back to NiMH. So they are simply locked out of a this class until a bunch of old schoolers decide that LiPo has been "figured out"? Its time to stop pretending like Lipo is some kind of 'weird science' or something. The batteries work, they work better than NiMH, and its time to stop locking them out of classes. We went through this EXACT same crap with NiCD and NiMH and look how that turned out. Change happened anyway, no matter how people fought it, and the same will happen with NiMH and LiPo.
It's a mistake to assert that the majority of those of us looking at this class, or running it, are unfamiliar with the virtues of lipo batteries. I run them in my sedans and find them to be everything you describe. They are truly a "power revolution."

But, unless you've run 1/12th scale or some other breed of road course pan, it's hard to appreciate the importance of the voltage issue in these cars. Unless you are running on a really large track with wide lanes, any 7+ volt battery, whether lipo or NiMH is simply too much to handle for most of us. And unfortunately, the higher wind brushless motors, ie. 17.5 and 21.5 are a pain to gear correctly. The 17.5 is doable, but the 21.5 has so much torque it literally may call for an inverted ratio. This makes it additionally difficult to dial in gearing for tire diameter and track layout. I've squeezed the trigger on a lipo/17.5 200mm pan car. It was a missile! Sort of a thrill, to be sure. But nothing I would want to race.

NiMH, while "old tech" continues to have advantages in certain racing applications. The weight is actually a blessing in some cars. But more importantly, the obvious, easily teched voltage levels we can hit by simply adding or removing cells continues to be their main argument. And while you'll get no argument from me that the IB4200's were a disaster, I continue to run NiMH batteries that are durable and perform well. Are they as convenient as a single lipo? No. But not wanting to make perfect the enemy of the good, they're not bad, either.

The 4-cell/13.5 combo Scotty and Co. came to rest on for the IIC clearly showed their thoughtfulness and it deserves to be the standard for the class going forward. I guarantee they took all the lipo/NiMH/Brushed/Brushless debate into account. They made a good decision.
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Old 06-25-2008, 12:31 PM   #557
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Old 06-25-2008, 01:22 PM   #558
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Here's my thoughts on the "new" WGT class..... bear in mind I'm in England....

Over here it would be awesome to see it take off. However, I think this may take a while as although CRC, BMI etc have some top quality kits, its only the main brands such as AE, Yokomo, HB, Xray and Corally that really have big distributors over here. So probably not till AE has their car on a mass release (and if our distributor carries it and spares in quantity) will we see the class start to grow on a large scale.

We don't have big races over here like the IIC, Cleveland, 'Birds etc (although I'm hoping to change that very soon... whole other story) so to get a class running is going to be a big challenge.

I'd definitely look at taking up the class (given I currently do TC and 12th) but, like I said, probably not until we have a good support network over here.

As for motor (etc) classes, I think Scotty has probably made the right call for the IIC going 4 cell/13.5. I would have thought for our larger outdoor tracks we might look at 4 cell/10.5 but I also agree it would be good to have a "LiPo equivalent" (any ideas what motor on LiPo is going to be similar speeds to a 4 cell/10.5? I was thinking maybe 15.5?).......... And over here for the class to start I think you've got to open it up to as many people as possible (to which end I think you'd want to allow people to run both 4 and 6 cell/LiPo cars).

Just my thoughts on the class.... I'm personally behind it 100%.

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Old 06-25-2008, 01:37 PM   #559
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here is my thoughts on the battery debate.

I think that most people that have been around long enough see classes come go know that nothing kills a class faster then speed itself. That's the main reason for 4 cell and not six atleast for indoor tracks. Now as far as lipo goes I have to believe that at some point a 4 cell type lipo will exist I would think sooner then later. I think that would solve alot of debate about this issue. I don't believe it will take that long for someone to come up with one.
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Old 06-25-2008, 03:22 PM   #560
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You mentioned Mr. Darkseid about how you LiPo powered Mini isnt a missile. what kind of motor do you run, because I think that motor will be what helps keep GT1, GT2 and GTP from becoming missiles.
See thats what I mean. The class uses silver can/17.5(very close in speed) or black can. Can you put more motor in them than that, of course you can. But if you do, the car will have tons of wheel spin, will flip in the corners, and be darned near uncontrolable. So what do you do??? You use the proper motor.

I'm not saying that speed doesn't kill classes, I'm trying to figure out how people are directly linking running Lipo to running too fast. It just doesn't make sense. If you run Lipo instead of 4-cell, run a slower motor.

I just don't get whats so hard for people here to understand about that.
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Old 06-25-2008, 03:31 PM   #561
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I think the problem is that everyone wants new tech which everyone can understand that which is brushless it's hard (atleast with the current motors) to find a combo that works right. 17.5 and 21.5 are your only options.17.5 is still pretty fast with lipo and not the greatest to gear.21.5 as has been stated here is nutz trying to gear it right.

I think in time things like motors,different batteries and so forth will come around.
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Old 06-25-2008, 03:37 PM   #562
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I cant answer that because itd require that I have telepathic powers like Professor Xavier...


anyway, I think that there is a place for LiPo in this class soon enough. But Im not Scotty or Boomer or bill or any of the guys running the big races. Im sure that LiPo will have a place in this class of racing. I think the big thing though that people are bringing up is the voltage of LiPo packs now (7.4v I believe). Look at what was said just a few posts ago by PutAwayWet...

LiPo is going to be the primary source of power sooner rather than later, but I do support Scotty and Boomer and Bill with going with what they have. Its too bad that people feel like they are being "locked out" of this class because of NiMH batteries but as long as the cars are somewhat manageable and at least accessible to more people then I say do what it takes to get the class started (even if it does mean using what many would call antiquated technology) and then go from there.
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Old 06-25-2008, 03:41 PM   #563
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Originally Posted by PutAwayWet View Post
It's a mistake to assert that the majority of those of us looking at this class, or running it, are unfamiliar with the virtues of lipo batteries. I run them in my sedans and find them to be everything you describe. They are truly a "power revolution."

But, unless you've run 1/12th scale or some other breed of road course pan, it's hard to appreciate the importance of the voltage issue in these cars. Unless you are running on a really large track with wide lanes, any 7+ volt battery, whether lipo or NiMH is simply too much to handle for most of us. And unfortunately, the higher wind brushless motors, ie. 17.5 and 21.5 are a pain to gear correctly. The 17.5 is doable, but the 21.5 has so much torque it literally may call for an inverted ratio. This makes it additionally difficult to dial in gearing for tire diameter and track layout. I've squeezed the trigger on a lipo/17.5 200mm pan car. It was a missile! Sort of a thrill, to be sure. But nothing I would want to race.

NiMH, while "old tech" continues to have advantages in certain racing applications. The weight is actually a blessing in some cars. But more importantly, the obvious, easily teched voltage levels we can hit by simply adding or removing cells continues to be their main argument. And while you'll get no argument from me that the IB4200's were a disaster, I continue to run NiMH batteries that are durable and perform well. Are they as convenient as a single lipo? No. But not wanting to make perfect the enemy of the good, they're not bad, either.

The 4-cell/13.5 combo Scotty and Co. came to rest on for the IIC clearly showed their thoughtfulness and it deserves to be the standard for the class going forward. I guarantee they took all the lipo/NiMH/Brushed/Brushless debate into account. They made a good decision.
Excellent discription of the situation. And I can better understand what people are concerned about now.

But I have to ask a simple question. What kind of future does a class have "going forward", if it has no room for the current/future battery technology? No sarcasm intended. Just a serious question.

Imagine if a class back in the day, simply refused to accomidate NiMH, and instead insisted on NiCD only. Where would that class be right now?

In my opinion, a class that doesn't allow a more efficient, longer lasting, easier to manage battery, has no future. And if thats what they are going to do with this class, without at least making a Lipo class, then its a dead class rolling...

I'm not saying people shouldn't be able to run 4-cell. If they want to run them, run them. But if you tell guys they can't run Lipo, you WILL lose racers...period. Its not even debatable...its not.
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Last edited by Darkseid; 06-25-2008 at 03:52 PM.
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Old 06-25-2008, 03:50 PM   #564
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I cant answer that because itd require that I have telepathic powers like Professor Xavier...


anyway, I think that there is a place for LiPo in this class soon enough. But Im not Scotty or Boomer or bill or any of the guys running the big races. Im sure that LiPo will have a place in this class of racing. I think the big thing though that people are bringing up is the voltage of LiPo packs now (7.4v I believe). Look at what was said just a few posts ago by PutAwayWet...

LiPo is going to be the primary source of power sooner rather than later, but I do support Scotty and Boomer and Bill with going with what they have. Its too bad that people feel like they are being "locked out" of this class because of NiMH batteries but as long as the cars are somewhat manageable and at least accessible to more people then I say do what it takes to get the class started (even if it does mean using what many would call antiquated technology) and then go from there.
I really can't understand how you agree that Lipo is the current and future battery technology, but still support class rules that ban them.
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Old 06-25-2008, 04:53 PM   #565
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Darkseid and Trackdesigner71 have very valid points. I know im not alone in not wanting to buy anymore nimh batteries and fear that with the new Associated RC10R5 coming out this is destined to be a 4 cell class. I think alot of people will have a hard time justifying buying nimh battery packs for just one class. Not a way to attract new racers in my opinion.
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Old 06-25-2008, 05:57 PM   #566
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motor wise, the only answer i see for taming them down for 12th and pan cars is physically smaller bl motors with adapter plates or something because the chemistry of the batts produces 3.7 volts.. now, nano phospate is different, but we are a couple years from that.. till then lipo/silver-can may be an option... or perhaps an esc manufacturer make s a speedo that can run 3.7 volts and step up the bec voltage for the RX and servo?
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Old 06-25-2008, 06:03 PM   #567
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I really can't understand how you agree that Lipo is the current and future battery technology, but still support class rules that ban them.
Its simple...Scotty Ernst has shown himself to be one of teh best RC race promoters in the US and as has been said before he probably did some serious homework before deciding what he did on the power combination. and Im guessing there are enough people who are willing to give 4 cell a chance at this race. Im sure if Boomer came into this discussion he could pretty well explain the methodology they used (Id say Scotty but he is out of the country announcing an event)
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Old 06-26-2008, 03:51 AM   #568
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The issue with the LiPo/NiMh debate is also weight - these pan cars won't work with the reduced weight of a LiPo in place of a 4-cell pack. Those of you that will squeeze a LiPo pack into these cars probably don't know what one should handle like, so be assured that anyone running LiPo will be at a handling disadvantage.

There is nothing wrong with current NiMh cells from EP and EnerG. IB has wrecked the image of NiMh, but Scotty and Boomer know that the best handling cars for 4-cell pan need NiMh, and that's what they've gone for.

There's room for LiPo in this class, so by all means run a group for them. But, it will soon pass when the LiPo brigade realise that they are losing out in the handling department, and want a car that is good to drive!
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Old 06-26-2008, 08:29 AM   #569
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I want to thank you guys for nothing.....alls I read is complaining and debating over lipo/nimh....but when someone has a question as tire size you are cutting your foams too, you all blow him off....Thanks again for nothing
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Old 06-26-2008, 08:38 AM   #570
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Sorry for that bro...This seems to be a debate that comes up every so often. Im no expert on foam tires so I really cant answer your question.

WGT has a chance to really be a fun class and very special. No matter what the power combination, the fact is itll be a fun class with bodies people can recognize as actual race cars and hopefully we will see growth. I was just over in the electric offroad section reading about the Traxxas Slash becoming a class and really you dont see discussion about NiMH vs LiPo or anything like that...its just talk about who is running them and where and when.
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