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Old 02-15-2008, 05:04 PM   #616
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You see, this is why it is great to have all the manufacturers involved. Bruce brought up some more great ideas. For a beginner class having a spec tire. This is great. There will be no "choice" tire to give the edge for the newbies. It keeps it simple and easy. 19 and mod guys can duke it out with tires. They have the experience and knowledge to figure that out. These are the things that really make me look forward to this class.
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Old 02-15-2008, 06:08 PM   #617
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedxl View Post
Sorry it came off wrong the wording should have said the movement towards getting this class up and running. This is an open forum, though some of the post's should have been in private.
I wasn't trying to say you being a woman that racing is none of your business, but you can't be there at every conversation he has track side.

I apologize if I offend you Mrs. CRC !

Nice to know we all have the time to be on the internet!!! And I do have an interest in this class taking off, I was one of the few that was trying to organize races for pancars unfortunately it wasn't at the right time.
It would be cool to have them run at the state race
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Old 02-15-2008, 06:49 PM   #618
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i believe that Pro10 should be 6 cell to keep the battery class alive. I doubt 6 cell will have too many problems, but limiting it to 4 cell, would basically be a slower 1/12 class. I would like to see lipo take off, because it would be the best of both worlds, RWD pan car, and 6 cell touring
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Old 02-15-2008, 07:29 PM   #619
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How would it be slower if they have the same power, but the 10th scales only have to run 5 minutes, and they have more traction?
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Old 02-15-2008, 07:33 PM   #620
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oh, i didnt know their mains are shorter. But i thought they would be heavier atleast. and isnt motor, battery, and tire wear increased from higher traction?
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Old 02-15-2008, 09:15 PM   #621
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If you increase traction, tire wear goes down. It's when the tires slip that they get ground down.
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Old 02-15-2008, 10:19 PM   #622
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Kudos to Frank at CRC to make some steps to modernize the pan car with a LiPo battery tray and offer it in wide forms for current users In Europe Florida and Colorado and narrow forms for anticipated new users of the GT class. Some novel engineering exist on the car as well. I like the cantilevered beam top plate that offers good motor access and light weight, the rear X brace that goes with it. Kudos for molding your own proprietary front end. Now that takes guts and is an expensive effort.
Kudos to BMI for some novel engineering with respect to the cross between a T-plate and a U plate. I don't know what to call it yet as pictures are not detailed enough yet. Maybe it has a name.
My personal opinion is that a manufacturer needs to make a car that he believes will sell. At the same time as a consumer, I appreciate steps even if small that advance the breed. This means eliminates deficiencies in the breed not just change the colors or slightly change the weight balance.

I don't believe that a group of manufacturers should conspire to keep the breed stagnant and at a set price or below. Are there not laws against this? At the same time I think reasonable standards can be agreed on. It would be better for a racing body to set these. In other words you lobby the racing body.
Two classes of Pan cars already existed under the 1/10 on road rules
Can-Am/GTP/WSC (what is deridedly called a pancake body repeatedly in this thread. These were the most powerful and fastest race cars that ever existed. They were more famous than the drivers that drove them) and GT/GT-1/Trans-Am These are bodies that are taller with a separate wing and are the type considered in this thread for the 200 mm class.

The ruling body could set the first class to 220 through 235 mm width for the European and Colorado crowd and second class to 200 mm for anticipated new users.

This talk of no bodies being available is just hogwash. At the same time there is talk of new bodies being made for the 200 mm pan class. If there are cars sold someone will make or resurrect bodies. Where there are molds, bodies can be made up. At McAllister this is the general rule on wide pans. There is no stock of 1000 bodies that needs to sit in a warehouse somewhere. When Stormer.com wants some bodies he just asks for them to be molded.

There is maybe a little too much hype that cannot be realized at every track for a pan car. If tracks traction is high indoors or out the pan car indeed has huge forward and cornering traction. Not so on a dusty or poor traction outdoor track.

If a car tends to fly at speed well then maybe some engineering effort should be expended to fix this problem rather than limit commonly used and available power options. (The predominant power option in Europe.) How about a couple of front shocks. At least give me those two extra slots somewhere where I can put a 4 x 2 saddle pack. Please have room for a brick LiPo.

These are just personal opinions of a racer. I No longer have any commercial interest in RC. I do have a well read pan car thread here on RC tech.

John

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Old 02-15-2008, 11:00 PM   #623
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John,

I was wondering when you might visit this site.

The Colorado racers run both 200mm and 235mm. There are some advantages with the wider cars, but the other compete pretty well. To that end I have both options. Darkside I-Fource at 200mm and My modified Corally C10X (which looks a lot like the new Corally car). So I'll run the 6 cell / lipo in the 235 and 4 cell and maybe lipo in the 200 but with a GT body.

Should be good racing.

Entry class, spec tire would help get this started as well. We all know that tires are the bigest cost for these cars, and yes more traction = less ware!!

Count on us to be in this, so once we have some good rules, and I hope before April ..... so we can run outside and gain some interest.
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Old 02-15-2008, 11:09 PM   #624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyMac View Post
GT10!!
Keep it PRO10, thats what IFMAR Called it before:

IFMAR World Championship Electric Track PRO 10

Year
Champion
Country
Venue

1992
Joel Johnson
U.S.A
Pomona U.S.A

1994
Masami Hirosaka
Japan
Sonneberg Germany

1996
Mike Swauger
U.S.A
Ontario U.S.A

1998
David Spashett
England
Newcastle England

2000
Masami Hirosaka
Japan
Tsukuba City Japan
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Old 02-15-2008, 11:33 PM   #625
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I write this response from a hotel as I am traveling this weekend.

First of all, thank you gijoe64, yyhayyim, Greasemonkey, JimmyMac, John Stanahan, JevUK, GSR and the others who have stepped in with words of support.

Earlier in the week, I wanted to respond to some of the posts in this tread. This thread had my associates/employees at CRC angered and eagerly awaiting a reply to accusations that were being made against the company. The guys in the shop were very upset and it is only their professional attitude that kept them off the keyboard, chomping at the bit instead. I also had my wife telling me that we (CRC) were getting beat up on this forum. Typically, I stick to business and try not to get involved in these online sagas. I simply do not have the time to get involved in this bickering. However, if I feel the company is being misrepresented, I am quick to jump in. I did see many incorrect comments posted here, but I simply have not had the time to respond to these accusations. I see now that some (but not all) of these posts have been edited to remove some of the slanderous remarks.

In any case, as I traveled today away from the computer, you can see, Mrs. CRC could not sit by idle any longer and watch her company and her husband get accused of breaking agreements and not sticking to the plan. Thank you honey for stepping in when I was unavailable, you always got my back!

Now to the facts…CRC had a “pan touring car” called the Pantoura for many years. It was based off of our Carpet Knife 3.2R. When the 3.2R was replaced by the Gen-X, the Pantoura was also “replaced” as we made less and less parts for the 3.2, the very parts the Pantoura needed to survive.

After the release of the Gen-X, we always had the notion that we would bring back the Pantoura, but now base it on the Gen-X. We continually received phone calls asking for the Pantoura, asking for a new Gen-X based Pantoura. We kicked it around, sat on the project, talked about the car, but never really got serious about making a prototype.

Along comes Adrian M with BMI in an e-mail that discussed taking a group of 1:12th scale manufactures and making 1:10th pan cars again. The e-mail went to CEFX, Speedmerchant, Darkside Motorsports, Hyperdrive, Corally USA and CRC. There was discussion of 200 mm wide, body styles, 4 cell NiMh, Lipo, etc.. basically, all the things being discussed here. Corally already had their 225 mm car out.

There were many e-mails back and forth. There were no “votes”, there were no ultimatums, no solid rules, and no agreements. It was simply a communication between manufactures that to paraphrase said, “hell yea, let’s give this a shot”. Let’s shoot for 200 mm wide, let’s shoot for 4 cell and/or lipo and lets use Vettes, Vipers and Mustang type bodies.

In those e-mails, CRC had only 2 responses…

The first was a response to one manufacturer suggesting touring car bodies. The thought of another type of RC racing with touring car bodies turned my stomach, so my reply was “say no to TC bodies, Let’s use sports car bodies instead.” I went on to comment that my hope was that this class would flourish on asphalt in the summer as not to conflict with 1:12th scale.

Adrian went on to mention that Extreme RC Magazine would do a feature on the class and could we all send a car to them by late January. Our only other comment was that “yes, we will move this project higher on the priority list to make this deadline.” We followed through with this, making a 200 mm 1:10th scale pan car based on our Gen-X 1:12th car that used 4 cell or lipo in which we showed on display at the Snowbirds.

We displayed the car on our site and at the Birds, the response has been well beyond our expectations. We have made minor tweaks to the prototype and we are now in production of the new Pantoura, now named the Gen-X 10.

So to refute Jason and defend my wife, CRC did not “break an agreement” to offer only a 200 mm wide car. CRC does not have the right (or frankly the nerve) to dictate to the buying public that 200 mm is “what you need”. We offer the 235 mm conversion because racers asked for it. And there was no binding deal that said we are to offer 200 mm only.

We offer a lipo function because again, CRC (or BMI) does not have the right to shove a battery type down the throats of the consumer telling the racer that they can’t handle lipo and 4 cell is better for them. And to refute Adrian’s comment in post 436 claiming the manufactures unanimously agreed that 4 cell was the way to go. BullSh*t! If something doesn’t remedy the problems with recent batches of NiMh Sub-C cells, it wont be long before we are all running Lipo, Li-Mag or for that matter Nitro.

In post 505, Jason says his “original plan was $250 and no one is sticking to his plan”. Well if it was his plan, he kept it to himself, in the e-mail chain that went around, there was never a dollar amount discussed. The Gen-X 10 is on the site for $299.99. Your local hobby store may offer it at a better price. We list it at a price a dealer could easily match or beat in an effort to have racers buy from their local shop. At $299.99, it is a tick more expensive than our Gen-X but still a reasonable price.

In summary…

We had a 200 mm 1:10th pan car (Pantoura), we had plans to make an updated car. The e-mail chain (initiated by BMI) kicked our updated car in gear.

We made a new Gen-X 10. It uses a ton of our Gen-X parts. It is 200 mm wide. We offer a 235 mm conversion. It takes 4 cell. It takes lipo. It takes 6 cells. It has lots of room for brushless. It has a good amount of adjustments. It sells for $299.99. We are proud of the car, we think it is pretty cool. We hope the public does too.

No agreements were broke, no plans were altered. We never said anything slanderous about any other car. Our car fits all the parameters discussed in the e-mail chain.

We hope people buy and enjoy our car. We hope that this adds to pan car racing. We hope that it doesn’t “steal” racers from our beloved 1:12th scale but offers a different twist on pan car racing, especially on larger tracks.

We hope they race them, but if they chose to run around in parking lots, that’s fine too. If they run them at 10 mph or 55 mph, that’s fine. If they run 235 mm Lipo 3.5 brushless, more power to them.

Now, let’s stop the bickering and whining, and give the scale/class a chance.

Peace.
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Old 02-16-2008, 12:26 AM   #626
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...I'd love to see HPI get back into this market too. I loved the HPI On-Road cars (Have a 200mm and a 235 mm sitting here - just collecting dust)
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Old 02-16-2008, 12:42 AM   #627
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Yokomo would be nice if they aren't busy drifting..
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Old 02-16-2008, 01:32 AM   #628
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Thanks for clearing the air Frank. These forums always get out of hand. I have a 190 Pantoura I converted to a wide car, Thanks to Doug Powell for coming up with the wide chassis. We have a dedicated asphalt track we race on in the summer. We are hopeing for a bettter turn out of 1/10 pan this summer. I am currently clearing a space beside my 2 GenX's one Novak brushless and one brushed mod. For at least 1 GenX10. We race indoor on "CRC" carpet in the winter. I'm hoping we may be able to have a class of the 200 mm cars next winter. Bob Stormer is supposed to be bringing a BMI prototype to a race in Regina this coming weekend. I really hope these catch on and don't hit the market with a resounding "THUD" like the 10L3T did. The more variety of manufactures building the new car the better. Goodnight from the great white north. Oh yeh, just got home racing1/12th scale tonight.

BE

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Old 02-16-2008, 03:50 AM   #629
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Great response Frank. Only I never caught the price thing just the 6 cell 235 thing.What each company sells there product for is their business!On this we've got Europe saying 235 and a south florida guy saying 235. Personnely I like the 200 mainly for the present body selection.When our Series wanted to race TransAm with TC I got the pancars in this class. If the pancars grow we will split the class.Next year we'll change the rules of the pan cars after we get it established(only how knows whats going to be out for these cars by then).
Frank - good luck and thanks for helping promote the 1/10th pan car class.Actually all the companies making these cars and the few that have them still in developement Thank You.
Frank can you fix a Class Charger to do lipos?
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Old 02-16-2008, 04:32 AM   #630
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Frank,

I posted that we were hoping to keep the costs down. We never did agree on price but did agree it needed to be low. You were also in agreement with me at the snowbirds that 7.4 lipo was insane. What ever the case, Its your car and if that is what you want to do thats fine. I will be offering my car to accept 7.4 volt lipo as well as much as it is against my beliefs.

I/we are supposed to know what is good and bad for the hobby. We are supposed to know and somewhat predict what will be good and bad and use our best judgement when doing something like this. After talking with Bob from AE,emails with you,josh,bruce,barry, I really felt this was going well.

Im not here attacking your product frank. I was disappointed to see the 235 and 6 cell option but wasnt frustrated with you personally. It is just 99% of the companies and pro racers i speak to all wish that the class would stay with a lower voltage. We all decided 200 so we can get bodies with ease.

I know that you are just making a car that you are happy with. I did get frustrated because i didnt want to see people encouraged to use the cars for other purposes. It takes away from the class and hurts sales. People will run what is available. If they want 235mm they will make it 235mm or 280mm if they want to. Perfect example is john. I went through his thread and watched him try a ton of things and changed the car all over. This is awesome and what makes this fun for alot of people. The public had no say in any of the other classes. They were available to run and they did. Here we are keeping the public involved and up to date.

There are other things i would rather have spoke to you in private or via PM or phone about this but it is too late. We can all just release our cars and be done. We can all let the class go where its gonna go. Im not gonna sit here and tell everyone what will work for this hobby anymore. If the people want 235 then they can run it. Im not offering it so it doesnt concern me. Just thank god that the other cars arent going this route.

Good day,
Jason
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