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Old 02-05-2008, 12:33 PM   #346
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I think there needs to be some spec aspects to any 10th pan class either way. I suggested the 4 cell and 10.5/19T but whatever the accepted combination is, I think some sort of a spec aspect ought to be integrated. Im not saying that every single thing (right down to the top end speed) needs to be spec but something to at least start everyone at the same ground floor. Whether its 7.4 LiPo and 21.5 or 4 cell NiMH and 17.5/27T or whatever, some sort of a spec aspect ought to at least be considered to level things from the start.
Just spoke with my buddy Hector Garcia(el Campion) about this: after a good discussion he suggests the following:

MOD: 10.5BL and 13.5BL with 7.4V Lipo...the 10.5BL can be the hotter motor, for more open larger tracks, and the 13.5 for med or smaller tracks, like in TC's where 3.5 thru 5.5 are used in mod classes depending on tracks.

Intermediate: 17.5BL and 7.4v lipo

Stock/novice: 21.5BL motor with 7.4v Lipo...
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Old 02-05-2008, 12:46 PM   #347
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Not really, it's an energy thing. With a fixed resistance, the 6-cell pack would discharge faster. With a fixed load, the 6-cell would last longer.

The thought is that the 6-cell would be run on a higher resistance motor (more winds) so that the power output would be equivalent. The 6-cell would nominally have 30.24 Watt-hr where the 4-cell would have 20.16 Watt-hr.

For an equivalent load of 100 watts, the 6-cell would run 18 minutes and the 4-cell would run 12 minutes.
Energy calculations aside 4 cell is the smart road to take with the car. Less weight and less cost for the racers and more than adequate run times. Lets not forget this class won't be much heaver than a 1/12 scale car on 4 cells so getting 8 minutes in brushless really isn't going to be an issue at all. This doesn't even begin to factor in the higher mass which will without a doubt result in more broken parts.

Save everyone some cash and weight, this class is going to bring in a new era of lower cost so people can spend more time racing and having a good time. 4 cells is the smart choice.

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Old 02-05-2008, 01:06 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by yyhayyim View Post
Just spoke with my buddy Hector Garcia(el Campion) about this: after a good discussion he suggests the following:

MOD: 10.5BL and 13.5BL with 7.4V Lipo...the 10.5BL can be the hotter motor, for more open larger tracks, and the 13.5 for med or smaller tracks, like in TC's where 3.5 thru 5.5 are used in mod classes depending on tracks.

Intermediate: 17.5BL and 7.4v lipo

Stock/novice: 21.5BL motor with 7.4v Lipo...
Racers will run whatever they want to run and in a year or so what the majority are running will dictate what the rules end up being. This has always been the case and is a good healthy way to let this class evolve.
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Old 02-05-2008, 01:06 PM   #349
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Energy calculations aside 4 cell is the smart road to take with the car. Less weight and less cost for the racers and more than adequate run times. Lets not forget this class won't be much heaver than a 1/12 scale car on 4 cells so getting 8 minutes in brushless really isn't going to be an issue at all. This doesn't even begin to factor in the higher mass which will without a doubt result in more broken parts.

Save everyone some cash and weight, this class is going to bring in a new era of lower cost so people can spend more time racing and having a good time. 4 cells is the smart choice.

Nick
Well, Lipo would solve many of those pblms...

For example: an Orion 3200 Lipo weighs in at 198g, which is almost 80g less than 4 cell IB 4200 pack.

an Orion 3600 Lipo is 225g, which is abnout 50g less than 4 cell nimh.

and a 4800 Orion Lipo is about 260g, which is almost 20g less than a 4 cell 4200 nimh pack.

-So less weight with lipo, and less force on impact during crashes, which dhould result in less damage and breakage of cars and parts...

-a 4800 mah lipo can easily provide twice the run time of 4 cell 4200 nimh pack. With a 4800 Lipo pack, you can run over 25 minutes with 13.5 motor on pan car, and over 30 minutes with 17.5BL!!! With one pack you can run 3-4 heats, easily, and still a bit left over for a main! You can use and recharge them time after time the same day. One good pack is all you need and a Lipo capable charger.

- Savings- with Lipo you can get one pack, which will out last the nimh packs cycle wise, and you can use over several years...

Orion 3200...........$80
Orion 3600...........$100
Orion 4800...........$130
Trackpower 4900..$120
CORERC5000........$130


Nimh you'll possibly need several packs, probably 3-4 packs, which can cost up to $40-$50 complete for IB4200 or higher newer cells....that's over $200 in nimh packs...One Lipo pack will give you the run time equivalent of those 3-4 nimh packs, with just one Lipo pack, since you can use the same Lipo pack for several heats, re-charge, run again, recharge, etc...No need for dischargers, cell conditioners, and other gadgets needed to keep nimh in good shape, which will drive a new person to the hobby pretty insane---its too much to handle and a bit more expensive than just getting a nice 7.4v Lipo and charger--that's it!

Although 4 cell is nice and smart- 7.4v Lipo is just much better, budget wise, performance wise, and much simpler and easy to enjoy...
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Old 02-05-2008, 01:12 PM   #350
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Racers will run whatever they want to run and in a year or so what the majority are running will dictate what the rules end up being. This has always been the case and is a good healthy way to let this class evolve.

Yeah...I think in the end we'll see the TC guys running with Lipo, and the oval and 1/12 guys running with 4 cell nimh...new guys will probably run Lipo since its much easier and simpler to care for and enjoy. Those that run oval and 1/12 and TC, will have it a bit better, though...they probably have a few lipos, and few 4 cell packs laying around.
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Old 02-05-2008, 01:45 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by yyhayyim View Post
Well, Lipo would solve many of those pblms...

For example: an Orion 3200 Lipo weighs in at 198g, which is almost 80g less than 4 cell IB 4200 pack.

an Orion 3600 Lipo is 225g, which is abnout 50g less than 4 cell nimh.

and a 4800 Orion Lipo is about 260g, which is almost 20g less than a 4 cell 4200 nimh pack.

-So less weight with lipo, and less force on impact during crashes, which dhould result in less damage and breakage of cars and parts...

-a 4800 mah lipo can easily provide twice the run time of 4 cell 4200 nimh pack. With a 4800 Lipo pack, you can run over 25 minutes with 13.5 motor on pan car, and over 30 minutes with 17.5BL!!! With one pack you can run 3-4 heats, easily, and still a bit left over for a main! You can use and recharge them time after time the same day. One good pack is all you need and a Lipo capable charger.

- Savings- with Lipo you can get one pack, which will out last the nimh packs cycle wise, and you can use over several years...

Orion 3200...........$80
Orion 3600...........$100
Orion 4800...........$130
Trackpower 4900..$120
CORERC5000........$130


Nimh you'll possibly need several packs, probably 3-4 packs, which can cost up to $40-$50 complete for IB4200 or higher newer cells....that's over $200 in nimh packs...One Lipo pack will give you the run time equivalent of those 3-4 nimh packs, with just one Lipo pack, since you can use the same Lipo pack for several heats, re-charge, run again, recharge, etc...No need for dischargers, cell conditioners, and other gadgets needed to keep nimh in good shape, which will drive a new person to the hobby pretty insane---its too much to handle and a bit more expensive than just getting a nice 7.4v Lipo and charger--that's it!

Although 4 cell is nice and smart- 7.4v Lipo is just much better, budget wise, performance wise, and much simpler and easy to enjoy...
While there is a lot of good truth in this post there's still some very good things to be said for NIMH technology. Over the past year an awful lot has changed and good performing higher quality cells that are durable are now a reality. Our guys at the Snowbirds re-ran packs like crazy, Jeff Brown was without a doubt the fastest in 12th scale stock and literally ran one pack of Ener-G 4600 cells the whole week. I can guarantee you that pack with nothing more than a regular charge, discharge and tray regiment will last 4-5 months under racing conditions and continue to operate as a practice pack for much longer. We are talking about a racer needing 2 packs that retail around $45 each to compete at the top tier in this class for 4-5 months before seeing a significant reduction in performance.

Your average Lipo battery pack is capable of running 100 cycles at top performance before it begins it's decline into the practice pack category. Running once a week on 2 NIMH packs for one practice run, 2 qualifiers and a main would equate to 2 cycles per week. We are looking at around 40 cycles in a 5 month period of time. Running 1 Lipo pack at that same race night you would be putting 4 cycles on that one battery every single week.

Now for the math, lets break it down on cost per week:

2 NIMH packs, 40 cycle lifespan at a cost of $90.00 - 20 weeks of racing at a cost of $4.50 per week.

1 Lipo pack, 100 cycle lifespan at a cost of $120.00 - 25 weeks of racing at a cost of $4.00 per week.

When you really sit down and figure it out the new technology isn't really that much more economical. We are talking about a difference of 50 cents per week here. The support equipment doesn't really amount to a whole lot when you look at the cost of a quality charger and discharge device vs the lifespan of that gear and it's value on the used market. Running NIMH cells is not rocket science, no more than running Lipo honestly. There are risks associated with both options and misuse with anything will provide poor results.

From a chassis design perspective 4 cells give manufacturers more room and options to create a diverse offering of chassis. We can control how and where weight is positioned much easier providing interesting options to customers. If we get a large number of different chassis options pricing will fall and make this a highly competitive class that has a very reasonable price tag associated with it.

I personally still feel 4 cells is a smarter move for the average racer. Being able to replace a pack at such a low cost will help everyone out in the end and really go a long way to keeping the speed under control. Speed combined with breakage is the number one reason we can't keep newcomers in this hobby. Pro10 cars with 4 cells and mild brushless motors clad with cool looking diverse bodies are the future of racing.

I don't want anyone to take this as an anti Lipo position. I do feel very strongly that we should start with 4 cells and migrate this class to a 3.7v Lipo solution in the future along with 12th scale and oval!

Nick
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Old 02-05-2008, 02:02 PM   #352
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Now for the math, lets break it down on cost per week:

2 NIMH packs, 40 cycle lifespan at a cost of $90.00 - 20 weeks of racing at a cost of $4.50 per week.

1 Lipo pack, 100 cycle lifespan at a cost of $120.00 - 25 weeks of racing at a cost of $4.00 per week.
Nick, check my math:

2 NIMH packs, 40 cycle lifespan at a cost of $90.00 - 20 weeks of racing at a cost of $4.50 per week.

1 Lipo pack, 100 cycle lifespan at a cost of $120.00 - 25 weeks of racing at a cost of $4.80 per week.

It only caught my attention because the qty of weeks was different. In the end, Lipo is more expensive, the cost of 'simplicity' luxury tax...
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Old 02-05-2008, 02:08 PM   #353
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I think there is room for both NiMH and LiPo. I will choose to run 2s LiPo and whatever motor balances performance and drive time. I'd like to see 10 minute or greater races, as longer races were the reason I originally went to nitro. I'm not sure how long a 2s 5000 LiPo would run a 17.5 or 21.5 with a given FDR, but I plan to find out

I'm waiting for the day that batteries will swap in and out easily so that we can actually think about pitting
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Old 02-05-2008, 02:09 PM   #354
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Nick, check my math:

2 NIMH packs, 40 cycle lifespan at a cost of $90.00 - 20 weeks of racing at a cost of $4.50 per week.

1 Lipo pack, 100 cycle lifespan at a cost of $120.00 - 25 weeks of racing at a cost of $4.80 per week.

It only caught my attention because the qty of weeks was different. In the end, Lipo is more expensive, the cost of 'simplicity' luxury tax...
I apparently suck at math =(

Thank you for pointing that out Timmy. I guess the point still remains that the difference in cost is pretty small when you take a close look.

Nick
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Old 02-05-2008, 02:10 PM   #355
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In all honesty, no one really knows what will happen as far as availability of cells. If lipo is all we can get some day then we need to make sure that the cars work and work damn good with lipos. If Nickle metal cells stick around for a while, then they need to work with them also.

This is really a nerve racking time to be making or developing a car. We need to look at it from all angles and try to accomodate all the cell options. We all just need to sit back and see what direction the batteries go before we can really decide on anything.

All i know is i will try the 7.4 volt lipo,make the car work really well, and then im going back to 4 cell 10.5 and 4.5 to make it easy for new guys and existing racers to get into it by breaking down old packs. 4 cell can exceed speeds of 50mph and still handle like an animal. That is plenty fast for me.
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Old 02-05-2008, 03:16 PM   #356
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And that's if the packs last 40 cycles... recently... that is a HUGE stretch...

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Nick, check my math:

2 NIMH packs, 40 cycle lifespan at a cost of $90.00 - 20 weeks of racing at a cost of $4.50 per week.

1 Lipo pack, 100 cycle lifespan at a cost of $120.00 - 25 weeks of racing at a cost of $4.80 per week.

It only caught my attention because the qty of weeks was different. In the end, Lipo is more expensive, the cost of 'simplicity' luxury tax...
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Old 02-05-2008, 03:20 PM   #357
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Firstly guys, I'm pretty crap at maths but there's no way you could only run 2 packs at one of our meetings. You simply do not have enough time between heats to charge a used pack back up after leaving it to sit and cool down, so we HAVE to use at least 3 packs per race day, and that's a push! Secondly, I noticed the CEFX 1/10th Oval cars in the foreground of the attatched pic, does that mean a CEFX Pro10 could also be on the cards for the near future? All the best, Chris.
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Old 02-05-2008, 03:22 PM   #358
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I'm also crap at attaching pics by the look at it as well!!
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Old 02-05-2008, 03:51 PM   #359
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And that's if the packs last 40 cycles... recently... that is a HUGE stretch...
Hi Tim,

I would recommend getting some time on the latest cells, they have improved by a very very huge margin. We have been testing for quite some time and have experienced nothing but excellent results.

Nick
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Old 02-05-2008, 03:56 PM   #360
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Firstly guys, I'm pretty crap at maths but there's no way you could only run 2 packs at one of our meetings. You simply do not have enough time between heats to charge a used pack back up after leaving it to sit and cool down, so we HAVE to use at least 3 packs per race day, and that's a push! Secondly, I noticed the CEFX 1/10th Oval cars in the foreground of the attatched pic, does that mean a CEFX Pro10 could also be on the cards for the near future? All the best, Chris.
Hi Wingman,

Having a racing program that moves that quickly is going to skew the math with either technology. You wouldn't want to be cranking on a Lipo between heats without letting it cool properly either. In this situation more packs that cost less is going to be a more economical approach than having more packs that cost much much more.

I didn't have a chance to catch up with Josh at the Snowbirds but I would suspect he will have something on the way.

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